Bush: a modern Hitler?

[zheer]

I never understood aىd will never understand why it is worse to kill your own people than it is to kill people of other states.

Anyway, Bush is not as bad as Hitler.

  If history has tought us one thing, it is that all wars are tragic with grave consequence that lasts well into the future. However in some exceptional cases it is possible to justify the killing of others in battle, but one can not ever justify the killing of their own people.

[gyzzzmo]

  If history has tought us one thing, it is that all wars are tragic with grave consequence that lasts well into the future. However in some exceptional cases it is possible to justify the killing of others in battle, but one can not ever justify the killing of their own people.

First, if history has tought us one thing, that would be that people dont learn from history. Too many leaders including our big friend Bush ofcourse, are the nasty proof of that.
Secondly, no life is worth more than another, making a difference between 'own' people and 'enemy' is therefor silly. A funny (but not too seriously) thing is that the Americans let the Afghanistan people fight for them vs the Russians, therefor the Americans are actually fighting their 'own' people.
Plus, Bush sent USA troops to Iraq for a false reason, therefor he is  sending his 'own' people into death. Bravo!

[zheer]

thing is that the Americans let the Afghanistan people fight for them vs the Russians, therefor the Americans are actually fighting their 'own' people.
Plus, Bush sent USA troops to Iraq for a false reason, therefor he is  sending his 'own' people into death. Bravo!

  The U.S got the Afghans to re-claim their land from Russian invaders, they were trained buy the U.S, but in no way are they American. Recently in the wake of 9/11 and the rise of the Alkaeda the U.S made it its objective to stop the Alkaeda from controling the mid-east.
  You have to make a distinction between troops and civilians, these days troops in their own free will join the military to serve their own nation. Hussian un-like Bush made no distinction between civilian and troops. Either way i believe the situation in IRAQ has been tragic since the 1970. The only thing that one can hope for is that the people of Iraq re-build their nation once the U.S hands over power to the people of IRAQ.
  Personaly I feel that the fall of Hussian and a chance for the Kurds of Iraq to live in a free and democratic society is what the Americans were hoping for.

[ahinton]

Ok, so you weren't able to do it. I don't think you understood my question. I am not asking about the number of Americans killed by Bush or the number of Iraqi's killed by Saddam Hussein, I am asking about everyone they killed. Do you think it was a worse crime by Saddam Hussein to kill the kurds in his country than it was to kill countless Iranians in the Iraq-Iran war? I never understood aىd will never understand why it is worse to kill your own people than it is to kill people of other states.

Genocide is genocide wherever and at whomsoever's hands it is committed; I was not suggesting otherwise, but one surely cannot rule out the statistics altogether in considerations of issues such as these.

Anyway, Bush is not as bad as Hitler.

I am relieved that we can at least agree on this!

Best,

Alistair

[gyzzzmo]

Genocide is genocide wherever and at whomsoever's hands it is committed; I was not suggesting otherwise, but one surely cannot rule out the statistics altogether in considerations of issues such as these.
I am relieved that we can at least agree on this!

Best,

Alistair

Why do you keep focussed on those statistics the whole time, while the idea behind it is the point?

[piano_ant]

What a ridiculous topic.

Bush hobby: Golf, learning to read.

Hitler hobby: "Final solution to the Jewish question"

Difference?

sh*t after reading some of these posts I'm tempted to start a movement called "final solution for the Dumbass question".

Seriously, some of you Europeans act like innocence is human nature over there. HA!

[Petter]

What a ridiculous topic.

Hitler hobby: "Final solution to the Jewish question"

I thought his hobbies were drawing Mickey Mouse cartoons and cuddle with children...

[thalbergmad]

Other hobbies included crapping on his girlfriends head, walking his dog, watching King Kong 500 times and listening to Wagner.

Killing millions of Jews does not seem to fit in with the word hobby very well.

Thal

[mkaykov]

with this economic crisis, and the Iraq War, the Bush Presidency is hated very much, indeed. Bush is the opposite of a dictator, he basically does what his friends in the oil business tell him to do. 

Bush a modern Hitler? This is truly funny. Just as absurd as saying that Obama is the Antichrist.

[ahinton]

Why do you keep focussed on those statistics the whole time, while the idea behind it is the point?

As I already made clear, I don't - but at the same time I think it inappropriate to ignore them altogether...

Best,

Alistair

[mephisto]

Genocide is genocide wherever and at whomsoever's hands it is committed; I was not suggesting otherwise, but one surely cannot rule out the statistics altogether in considerations of issues such as these.

Best,

Alistair

I agree with you 100% that is why I ask you to provide us with the statistics wich you base you arguments on.

[gyzzzmo]

To my opinion killing hundreds of thousands if just as horrible as millions. Btw, this thread was not only about Hitler, it was about comparing Bush with other 'genocide dictators'.

[michel dvorsky]

Associated Press:

CAIRO, Egypt (AP) - Al-Qaida's No. 2 leader used a racial epithet to insult Barack Obama in a message posted Wednesday, describing the president-elect in demeaning terms that imply he does the bidding of whites.

The message appeared chiefly aimed at persuading Muslims and Arabs that Obama does not represent a change in U.S. policies. Ayman al-Zawahri said in the message, which appeared on militant Web sites, that Obama is "the direct opposite of honorable black Americans" like Malcolm X, the 1960s African-American rights leader.

In al-Qaida's first response to Obama's victory, al-Zawahri also called the president-elect—along with secretaries of state Colin Powell and Condoleezza Rice—"house negroes."

Speaking in Arabic, al-Zawahri uses the term "abeed al-beit," which literally translates as "house slaves." But al-Qaida supplied English subtitles of his speech that included the translation as "house negroes."

The message also includes old footage of speeches by Malcolm X in which he explains the term, saying black slaves who worked in their white masters' house were more servile than those who worked in the fields. Malcolm X used the term to criticize black leaders he accused of not standing up to whites.

The 11-minute 23-second video features the audio message by al-Zawahri, who appears only in a still image, along with other images, including one of Obama wearing a Jewish skullcap as he meets with Jewish leaders. In his speech, al-Zawahri refers to a Nov. 5 U.S. airstrike attack in Afghanistan, meaning the video was made after that date.

Al-Zawahri said Obama's election has not changed American policies he said are aimed at oppressing Muslims and others.

"America has put on a new face, but its heart full of hate, mind drowning in greed, and spirit which spreads evil, murder, repression and despotism continue to be the same as always," the deputy of al-Qaida chief Osama bin Laden said.

He said Obama's plan to shift troops to Afghanistan is doomed to failure, because Afghans will resist.

"Be aware that the dogs of Afghanistan have found the flesh of your soldiers to be delicious, so send thousands after thousands to them," he said.

Al-Zawahri did not threaten specific attacks, but warned Obama that he was "facing a Jihadi (holy war) awakening and renaissance which is shaking the pillars of the entire Islamic world; and this is the fact which you and your government and country refuse to recognize and pretend not to see."

He said Obama's victory showed Americans acknowledged that President George W. Bush's policies were a failure and that the result was an "admission of defeat in Iraq."

But Obama's professions of support for Israel during the election campaign "confirmed to the Ummah (Islamic world) that you have chosen a stance of hostility to Islam and Muslims," al-Zawahri said.

OMG AL QAEDA DOESNT LIKE OBAMA EITHER.. WHAT CAN WE DO TO EARN THEIR RESPECT AND AFFECTION? 

It is abundantly clear that those who hate and would do harm to America hate America for what America is and not what America does.

[G.W.K]

It is abundantly clear that those who hate and would do harm to America hate America for what America is and not what America does.

No. The majority of people just hate the Americans...accept it, because no one can change it.

America's actions also have an effect on people's opinions, etc towards them.

G.W.K

[michel dvorsky]

No. The majority of people just hate the Americans...accept it, because no one can change it.

America's actions also have an effect on people's opinions, etc towards them.

G.W.K

Actually we are essentially in agreement.

Here's what I *think* you are saying:

X - set of all people
x - subset - those who hate the USA and Americans no matter what they do
y - subset - those whose opinion of the United States depends on what Americans do.

Given that Al-Qaeda are ideologically committed to the hatred of the United States, they belong to the subset x.

However, I don't think anywhere near the "majority" of people in the world belong to x.  As a matter of fact, I doubt even a very large minority of Muslims belong to this group.  Even fewer of them are actually willing to carry out attacks against innocent civilians.  But this tiny minority of fanatics is the one we've got to fight to discredit and eliminate.

[gyzzzmo]

It is abundantly clear that those who hate and would do harm to America hate America for what America is and not what America does.

This is only partially true.
Some people indeed only hate America because they have nothing better to do and some bearded lads are encouraging them to hate. BUT.
Its because of all those rediculous actions from the USA that there are so many of them, and really became a threat.

[mephisto]

Associated Press:


OMG AL QAEDA DOESNT LIKE OBAMA EITHER.. WHAT CAN WE DO TO EARN THEIR RESPECT AND AFFECTION?  

wow

[G.W.K]

Al Queda's job is just to terrify the public. It's their hobby. If they think everything is too quiet or the public isn't scared anymore ~ they strike out, like the 9/11 disaster.

The 9/11 disaster is the only thing I will feel sorry towards the Americans about. They may have their stupid leaders and concepts, but they didn't deserve that. No one deserves losing their lives, or their friends/relatives lives in such a brutal manner...

G.W.K

[morningstar]

It was a rather effective wake up call though, however terrible.

[gyzzzmo]

The 9/11 disaster is the only thing I will feel sorry towards the Americans about. They may have their stupid leaders and concepts, but they didn't deserve that. No one deserves losing their lives, or their friends/relatives lives in such a brutal manner...

G.W.K

I very disagree with you actually. Ofcourse, the Americans themselves didnt 'deserve' to get killed at 9/11, but it was very good that (maye) the Americans start understanding that their actions have consequences. For a long time American policy has been to attack countries here and there, support groups with money and weapons to change politics somewhere far away, and never had to 'pay' for their meddling with foreign politics. All that time they thought they were safe because of their superior arsenal and all that water between those countries and the US. 9/11 showed that people start getting creative in other ways to get payback and that all that water and all those weapons dont protect from terrorism/guerillia warfare.

9/11 was a payback for that meddling, pity though that at that moment they had a president who only made things worse instead of becoming wiser. Hopefully Obama does understand that diplomacy can only fix things, not weapons.

[G.W.K]

I very disagree with you actually. Ofcourse, the Americans themselves didnt 'deserve' to get killed at 9/11, but it was very good that (maye) the Americans start understanding that their actions have consequences. For a long time American policy has been to attack countries here and there, support groups with money and weapons to change politics somewhere far away, and never had to 'pay' for their meddling with foreign politics. All that time they thought they were safe because of their superior arsenal and all that water between those countries and the US. 9/11 showed that people start getting creative in other ways to get payback and that all that water and all those weapons dont protect from terrorism/guerillia warfare.

9/11 was a payback for that meddling, pity though that at that moment they had a president who only made things worse instead of becoming wiser. Hopefully Obama does understand that diplomacy can only fix things, not weapons.

That is a heartless reply.

The Americans do stupid things so they have to die by Al Queda's mass-murdering? "Payback for that meddling"...so if other countries do stupid things then it's OK for terrorists to start blowing them up?!?

What about my country? My home city's airport was blown up by suspected members of Al Queda! What did that city do against Al Queda? The bus that was also blown up in Edinburgh, what had they done? What about England, who's train-stations and buses were also targets?

Is all that OK? Is that "payback for that meddling" also?

G.W.K

[morningstar]

That is a heartless reply.

The Americans do stupid things so they have to die by Al Queda's mass-murdering? "Payback for that meddling"...so if other countries do stupid things then it's OK for terrorists to start blowing them up?!?

What about my country? My home city's airport was blown up by suspected members of Al Queda! What did that city do against Al Queda? The bus that was also blown up in Edinburgh, what had they done? What about England, who's train-stations and buses were also targets?

Is all that OK? Is that "payback for that meddling" also?

G.W.K

What about Bali? What did they do to deserve their bars being blown up? What about...wait Australia never got hit lol

[G.W.K]

What about Bali? What did they do to deserve their bars being blown up? What about...wait Australia never got hit lol

I'm not joking. 

According to gyzzzmo, Australia need to meddle first before they deserve to all die.

G.W.K

[morningstar]

I'm not joking. 

According to gyzzzmo, Australia need to meddle first before they deserve to all die.

G.W.K

Neither was I, Bali didn't deserve to be blown up by fertilizer!
Well they did meddle, they sent the SAS to Iraq. Maybe gyzzmo would like hijacked planes to fly into Parliament house?

[G.W.K]

Neither was I, Bali didn't deserve to be blown up by fertilizer!
Well they did meddle, they sent the SAS to Iraq. Maybe gyzzmo would like hijacked planes to fly into Parliament house?

*SIGHS*

You never know when to stop...

G.W.K

[ahinton]

I'm not joking. 

According to gyzzzmo, Australia need to meddle first before they deserve to all die.

G.W.K

I'd be careful what you say about Australia here if I were you, unless you specifically want to risk incurring the wrath of "ada"...

Best,

Alistair

[G.W.K]

I'd be careful what you say about Australia here if I were you, unless you specifically want to risk incurring the wrath of "ada"...

What? That the Aussie version of the SAS?

G.W.K

[morningstar]

What? That the Aussie version of the SAS?

G.W.K

it's ADF alastair. Assuming you mean the army.

[G.W.K]

it's ADF alastair. Assuming you mean the army.

I doubt very much the Australian Army is going to track down a Glaswegian and kill him just because he said something about Australia in a Piano Forum.

In fact, I haven't said that much anyway...

G.W.K

[gyzzzmo]

That is a heartless reply.

The Americans do stupid things so they have to die by Al Queda's mass-murdering? "Payback for that meddling"...so if other countries do stupid things then it's OK for terrorists to start blowing them up?!?

What about my country? My home city's airport was blown up by suspected members of Al Queda! What did that city do against Al Queda? The bus that was also blown up in Edinburgh, what had they done? What about England, who's train-stations and buses were also targets?

Is all that OK? Is that "payback for that meddling" also?

G.W.K

You didnt understand my reply correctly. America has done whatever they liked to do so far, they funded Bin Laden and other dictators, killed hundreds of thousands in Vietnam, Afghanistan and Iraq and God knows what theyre doing in Afrika to secure oil and other materials. And when another president arrives in the White House, he says like 'okay that might not have been smart....... sorry?'.
America should stop trying to solve everything with war and sending CIA to change politics somewhere, because some foreign party does more what America likes than another.

And since the USA still doesnt learn from the past, maybe they have to learn it the hard way (9/11?) that war only causes a bigger potiential for war. Those terrorists were only defending their beliefs and ideals because the US cornered them. That doesnt make those terrorists 'great guys', but theyre just as much 'bad guys' as the USA are 'bad guys'.

About the terrorist attacks in England, Australia, Bali and Spain.... If they had a cruise missile they would have sent it to Washington, but since they dont, they attack other more convenient 'Western' targets. Pity they dont only kill Americans since they are the troublemakers, but they probably cant be bothered much either, since Americans themself also kill many more civilians/non-involved people than terrorists.

So again, i'm not saying those terrorists are great guys. But just try to see it from perspective and from their sides. Theyre all a bunch of idiots, but Bush had a choise, those terrorists were much more cornered.


Gyzzzmo

PS. Some might find my ideas radical, but to my opinion most other opinions are just far too simplistic. There are always 2 sides....

[G.W.K]

You didnt understand my reply correctly. America has done whatever they liked to do so far, they funded Bin Laden and other dictators, killed hundreds of thousands in Vietnam, Afghanistan and Iraq and God knows what theyre doing in Afrika to secure oil and other materials. And when another president arrives in the White House, he says like 'okay that might not have been smart....... sorry?'.
America should stop trying to solve everything with war and sending CIA to change politics somewhere, because some foreign party does more what America likes than another.

And since the USA still doesnt learn from the past, maybe they have to learn it the hard way (9/11?) that war only causes a bigger potiential for war. Those terrorists were only defending their beliefs and ideals because the US cornered them. That doesnt make those terrorists 'great guys', but theyre just as much 'bad guys' as the USA are 'bad guys'.

About the terrorist attacks in England, Australia, Bali and Spain.... If they had a cruise missile they would have sent it to Washington, but since they dont, they attack other more convenient 'Western' targets. Pity they dont only kill Americans since they are the troublemakers, but they probably cant be bothered much either, since Americans themself also kill many more civilians/non-involved people than terrorists.

So again, i'm not saying those terrorists are great guys. But just try to see it from perspective and from their sides. Theyre all a bunch of idiots, but Bush had a choise, those terrorists were much more cornered.


Gyzzzmo

PS. Some might find my ideas radical, but to my opinion most other opinions are just far too simplistic. There are always 2 sides....

Australia was never attacked. We are straying from the point: this is about similarities between George .W. Bush and Adolf Hitler...not Al Queda.

G.W.K

[gyzzzmo]

Australia was never attacked. We are straying from the point: this is about similarities between George .W. Bush and Adolf Hitler...not Al Queda.

G.W.K

Actually simularities between dictators/massmurderers and our big friend Bush

[G.W.K]

If you objectively see how Bush ruled his country by ideology and propaganda and then started attacking/threatning multiple countries without world support, couldnt you call him a mass murderer?
What is really the difference between him and rulers like Milosovich, Hitler and Hussein, didnt they all use propaganda, lies and force to go on executing their ideology, and killing hundreds of thousands of people as a consequence?

Or is Bush even worse, because he can get away with it, he cant get in jail/shot for what he did during his presidency?

gyzzzmo

That is the reason why you started this topic, that was the intended topic...we discuss that before you continue insulting people who lost relatives in bombings (not me, just other people).

G.W.K

[ahinton]

it's ADF alastair. Assuming you mean the army.

Then do not assume. It is not. I was referring to "ada", an Australian member of this forum.

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

I doubt very much the Australian Army is going to track down a Glaswegian and kill him just because he said something about Australia in a Piano Forum.

No, but the real "ada" might do (see my previous post)...

Best,

Alistair

[gyzzzmo]

That is the reason why you started this topic, that was the intended topic...we discuss that before you continue insulting people who lost relatives in bombings (not me, just other people).

G.W.K

This confirms you still dont understand (or havent read?) my posts well. Innocent people who get killed is terrible, but that doesnt justify killing hundreds of thousands of people in Iraq. Especially if 9/11 is a reaction on USA's own meddling. Thats why people should start thinking more about action-reaction and relativate actions more. And this issue also involves the start of the thread, since its about relativation of actions.

[G.W.K]

This confirms you still dont understand (or havent read?) my posts well. Innocent people who get killed is terrible, but that doesnt justify killing hundreds of thousands of people in Iraq. Especially if 9/11 is a reaction on USA's own meddling. Thats why people should start thinking more about action-reaction and relativate actions more. And this issue also involves the start of the thread, since its about relativation of actions.

Look, I really don't care anymore. Keep your personal opinions to yourself, this thread is basically dead now...

G.W.K

[gyzzzmo]

Look, I really don't care anymore. Keep your personal opinions to yourself, this thread is basically dead now...

G.W.K

This thread still gets a new reply every day, doesnt sound dead to me. Anyway if you feel offended some way, try reading posts better wich helps alot, especially in this case and if you dont want to do that, stay off this thread, in that case this thread IS dead, but only for you.

Gyzzz

[G.W.K]

This thread still gets a new reply every day, doesnt sound dead to me. Anyway if you feel offended some way, try reading posts better wich helps alot, especially in this case and if you dont want to do that, stay off this thread, in that case this thread IS dead, but only for you.

And in your case: consider what other's response might be to your post BEFORE you post it and word your posts better. I read all posts...it is the way they are worded which is the problem. But of course, you'll deny that concept...

G.W.K

[morningstar]

I doubt very much the Australian Army is going to track down a Glaswegian and kill him just because he said something about Australia in a Piano Forum.

In fact, I haven't said that much anyway...

G.W.K

It wouldn't have to be the whole ADF, just maybe a few spec ops poeple I know...

[morningstar]

No, but the real "ada" might do (see my previous post)...

Best,

Alistair

what is this 'ada' you speak of? Curious.

[thalbergmad]

Keep your personal opinions to yourself

Would not be many posts on this forum if we all did that.

Thal

[ahinton]

what is this 'ada' you speak of? Curious.

Check her posts here, why don't you?

Best,

Alistair

[gyzzzmo]

I read all posts...it is the way they are worded which is the problem. But of course, you'll deny that concept...

G.W.K

I might, but i'm not going to deny that concept, just to bother you 

[G.W.K]

I might, but i'm not going to deny that concept, just to bother you 

Doesn't bother me.

G.W.K

[pianowolfi]

what is this 'ada' you speak of? Curious.

She's an honorable member of this forum and of https://www.venganza.org/



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