Question for Brass Players.

[G.W.K]

I play an E flat Tenor Horn along with the Piano. So does my cousin. However, problems that we have both faced when playing the Tenor Horn is that when we're (try not to make innuendos here) "blowing"...LOL...passing air through the instrument, it begins to make a rattling noise or changes from one note, to another (as if it has a mind of it's own).

This happens with any Tenor Horn I touch. My cousin (who is still at school and sits exams in his piano-playing and Tenor Horn playing) also experiences similar problems and also has problems with his confidence and ability to play well.

I admit, I am definitely not the best brass player in the world! Is there anything that other, more experienced, brass players would recommend to fix these problems? Any advice on skills, techniques, etc?

We both would appreciate it!

G.W.K

[Bob]

Do you play it or are you just trying it, experimenting?

It's only got three valves so you can play a lot of notes with the same fingering.  Speed of air determines pitch.  If you firm or loosen the lips, you'll get different pitches. 

Rattling?  That could be the vavles.  Something loose.  Maybe a spring inside the valve casing -- They push the valves back up.  Just open up of the vavles and check.

Or... haha.. Maybe the valve caps are just loose.  If you get a clicking when you push the valves down, they're loose. 

Check that the valves are positioned the right way.  Sometimes rotating them will do it.  Or you can check on the inside and see if they have numbers (numbers face you as you play usually) or little plastic pieces.  It should be kind of obvious if the valves are in wrong.  It won't let air/sound through if they're in the wrong way.

Other that, this isn't the place for brass advice.  Firm embouchure, good air support, etc. 

But I'm really wondering... Why are or is anyone playing Eb tenor horn?  Are you in England?  British brass band maybe? 

[G.W.K]

Do you play it or are you just trying it, experimenting?

My first sentence was: "I play an E flat Tenor Horn..."

It's only got three valves so you can play a lot of notes with the same fingering.  Speed of air determines pitch.  If you firm or loosen the lips, you'll get different pitches. 

Rattling?  That could be the vavles.  Something loose.  Maybe a spring inside the valve casing -- They push the valves back up.  Just open up of the vavles and check.

Or... haha.. Maybe the valve caps are just loose.  If you get a clicking when you push the valves down, they're loose. 

Check that the valves are positioned the right way.  Sometimes rotating them will do it.  Or you can check on the inside and see if they have numbers (numbers face you as you play usually) or little plastic pieces.  It should be kind of obvious if the valves are in wrong.  It won't let air/sound through if they're in the wrong way.

Other that, this isn't the place for brass advice.  Firm embouchure, good air support, etc. 

I have been playing the Tenor Horn for about 2 years, I know which valves go where, etc. The rattiling seems to come from inside the instrument and ONLY when I am playing.

But I'm really wondering... Why are or is anyone playing Eb tenor horn?  Are you in England?  British brass band maybe? 

England isn't the only country in the UK. I am Scottish and I am not in the British Brass Band.

G.W.K

[richard black]

I'm not a brass player, but I accompany them a lot. It sounds as if you're cracking notes, which is due to unstable embouchure and/or insufficient breath support. Probably the latter is the more significant - it usually is!

For anyone doubting the quality of the tenor horn, I would say you should listen to Django Bates, a remarkably fine musician who happens to have made that instrument one of his chosen ways of expressing himself.

[Bob]

Maybe there's something in the instrument?  Big bells make nice targets for some people.  Not to mention the stuff that might fall in when it's in the case depending on how it's stored.  If it's not the valve movement, then it's the air or maybe the motion from holding it.   Snake it out. 

Or the instrument itself is just vibrating.  That could be it.  And if anything is loose, that will rattle. 

Tenor horns are kind of rare in the US.  I don't think I've one in person too much.  Maybe once or twice.  Unique here at least.  Maybe a special element for an ensemble.  What type of group are you playing this in?  I'm just curious. 

[timothy42b]

I'm not sure I understand your description.

It sounded like you were describing two problems, a mechanical rattling noise and an inability to stay on the correct partial.  (that's trombone player terminology.  What I mean is that an attempt to play a given note might result in a higher or lower note with the same fingering.)   

We do see tenor horns in the US but they're often called something else.  I assume you're talking about a roughly euphonium shaped object that plays a fourth higher than a standard Bb trombone, or the same range as a typical alto trombone? 

At any rate, there are several mechanical faults that will cause this but it seems unlikely to have the same two separate problems occur on multiple horns.  So we're probably talking an embouchure problem.  Maybe you can describe it a bit more. 

Unlike piano, a brass instrument will not play the correct note despite the correct fingering if you don't "hear" that pitch in your head.  The way you check for that is to buzz without the horn, either on the mouthpiece alone (recommended) or without the mouthpiece at all.  The mouthpiece should play the right pitch without the horn, if your mind and your chops are set correctly. 

It just occurred to me you could be describing something we call a double buzz.  That's a little more complicated. 

[G.W.K]

Below is a link to a picture of a Tenor Horn, just to make sure you know the exact instrument I am referring to:

https://www.freewebs.com/heliosuk/tenor%20horn.jpg

It is probably a fault with our playing, rather than the instrument itself. I don't think there is anything rattiling within the instrument as I've basically taken it apart and checked everything is correct, so it would probably be the playing. I think "richard black"'s explanation is probably the most likely one about lack of stamina and "cracking" notes, etc.

Aside from that, my cousin's confidence in his ability to play well: any advice on that? He is worried about other's opinion when he messes up and other similar things...I expect he's just worried because he had approaching exams in his school.

[Bob]

Practice.  Have a teacher.  Do a daily routine.  Ensemble instruments use different skills than piano. 

Rest as much as you play.  Use lots of air.  Split the practicing up -- Less, more often is better. 

Practice quiet long tones. 

[G.W.K]

Practice.  Have a teacher.  Do a daily routine.  Ensemble instruments use different skills than piano. 

I practice. I have an instructor. I have a routine. I'm not sure about the last one.

My cousin also has an instructor and practices daily.

G.W.K

[Bob]

Long tones? Oh, I see.

Ensemble instruments seem to do routines.  Piano focuses on literature, fewer pieces, more indepth work, etc.  Ensemble instruments practice basic skills and apply them to many pieces.  But if you're only reading on note at a time it's a lot easier.  And if it's a bass note sitting on one pitch for awhile it's not worth practicing the actual music so much.  So a routine to keep the skills in shape and develop them.  Look over the music some.  If you're playing in an ensemble daily and the music isn't challenging it might not be worth practicing the actual music much.  Work on skills instead, apply those skills to the music.  That's a different philosophy than typical piano thinking.  At least I've found.

I forgot to mention buzzing.  Just buzz the mouthpiece.  The rest of the horn doesn't matter so much if the buzz isn't good.

Don't press the mouthpiece.  Pressure is the beast. 

See if you can have one instrument at school and one at home.  If the tenor horn is close to a baritone or euphonium those things are a pian to lug around.  At least have a mouthpiece at home to buzz on. 

Memorize all the fingers and scales, etc. so you know exactly what's going on when a pitch moves.  I don't quite understand what you mean by that.  But if it's just switching partials, there aren't too many options for where the pitch goes. 

Another brass exercise is to go through the overtones.  Root, fifth, octave, third, etc.  With whatever pattern you want over that.  Flexibility.  Kind of tricky on the low brass though since you can bend one pitch around so much.  If that doesn't work, just go back and forth between two partials.  R 5 R 5 R....  All the valve combos 0 2 1 12 etc.

Rest is important.  Maybe more important than piano or in a different way.  Wind instruments are a little more physical than piano I think.  Piano is more challenging for the mind (not to mention getting to control the whole piece of music). 

Breathing exercises?  Blow air through the mouthpiece.  Cheap breathing device.  Flip it around and you get different resistence. 

Do situps or crunches.  That helps for breath support.  In the long run at least. 


Long tones, quiet ones, never seem to hurt though.  Really focuses the embouchure and you need air support. 

Make sure you're not killing yourself during practice.  The rest thing.  If the tone is sucking, you might be overdoing it.  Practicing more in that case won't help much.  If your form is messed up.  You just have to heal up and reset. 

Watch the rehearsals.  Directors focus on the music, not the individual players.  Don't knock yourself out for the ensemble if it's hurting you.  It's not worth it.  You don't get anything out of it.  An ensemble can harm your individual progress.

Check posture.  Check embouchure.  Break things down, make sure each thing is happening in the right order -- posture, breathing, buzz, etc.


And I suppose for the instrument rattling, make sure you've got a decent instrument too.  Name brand.  Not one that's ancient (from the 1930s.  I've seen a few).  There are companies trying to sell cheap shiny instruments that are less then worthless. 

You could try not practicing and see what happens.  That's an interesting one.  If you get better doing nothing it might be you're beating yourself up.

Make sure you're not working too hard.  If it's work, something might be wrong. 

When in doubt quiet long tones always work well.  Not much chance at overdoing things that way.  Quiet long tones, lots of rest.  That works well for most problems.

[G.W.K]

Thank you for that in-depth reply, it provides some ideas to try out.

See if you can have one instrument at school and one at home.

I will tell my cousin that, as I am no longer at school.

G.W.K

[communist]

maybe its broken 

[G.W.K]

maybe its broken 

It isn't.

G.W.K

[Bob]

For air support make sure you're leading with the abs.  Abs move first for sucking in air.  Abs moves first for pushing out air.  Chest breathing won't work well. 

Low brass uses a lot of air.  I'm sure you know that though. 

[timothy42b]

For air support make sure you're leading with the abs.  Abs move first for sucking in air.  Abs moves first for pushing out air.  Chest breathing won't work well. 

Low brass uses a lot of air.  I'm sure you know that though. 

I fear this advice given over the internet is dangerous and will lead to tension that will make your playing worse.  Without a teacher nearby (and maybe even with one) the best breathing advice is simply to take a deep relaxed breath. 

Let me elaborate on long tones.  There are a lot of methods, the most famous (for trombone players) given by Phil Teele.  You can buy his book, but it's written for bass trombone with two valves so you'd have trouble with the range.

At any rate, here is one fairly safe way to play them.  Pick a note in the middle of your range, say that F at the bottom of the treble clef (I'm making some guesses at how to transpose for an Eb alto horn.  Yeah, I know you call it a tenor, this is one the British got wrong, sorry <grin>)  Take a deep breath. Play the note, mp, for as long as you can possibly play on that one breath.  Now, repeat without resting -take another large breath and immediately play that note again.  Do this 20 times.  Then go down a half step and repeat.  The next day or couple of days add a couple more half steps until you're playing down all 7 fingerings.  At 20 tones each, that should take about a half hour.  Phil's program is more complicated - two sets of 30 on each note, and a different range on the horn for each day, but this would get you started. 

If as I suspect you have a double buzz, that is often a place where your embouchure setting is changing.  For that you start below and above and work into it.