English/French suites first or sinfonias?

[tsagari]

In my country piano syllabus as far as the works of Bach are concerned
for intermmediate and advance learners has the following order
Invations for two voices
Sinfonias
English/French Suites
WTC
However some teachers believe that it might be better to teach English French Suites before Sinfonias (invations for three voices)
What do you believe?

[quantum]

The difficulty of suite movements varies greatly.  Some can be used effectively before you learn an invention.  Some are difficult finger twisters.  Eg: The Capriccio from Partita #2.

[a-sharp]

Haha - no kidding. Working on that mvmt right now. It's do-able, but ever-so-slow going into my fingers. Aaargh.

[gerryjay]

hi, tsagari!
this kind of simplification (that you can find in syllabuses or old-fashioned editors' lists of works) is way misleading. you make me remind of my early years on the piano. there was, in the school i gave my first musical steps, some sort of "bach's statement", not much different from yours:
- two-part inventions;
- french suites;
- three-part inventions;
- english suites;
- the well-tempered clavier;
- partitas.

although it makes some sense, it is not accurate. for instance, there are dances from the english suites that are in the same level of the two-part inventions, and some three-part ones that are trickier than fugues in the wtc. thus, there are two things to consider:
- bach's multimovement-works are very irregular. even in a simple prelude-and-fugue pair, it's difficult to find equal partners. then, i find somewhat useless trying to classify complete suites, or sonatas.
- playing two pieces is normally more tough than playing one, and playing a set is more complex than playing a pair.

what i believe (and was very useful in my student years) is that there are levels of complexity of individual works, and that you must proceed through that. this way, only a good teacher (or a skilled student) can figure out what comes next.

let's assume you can play the first three-part invention already, but you cannot tackle the prelude of the second english suite. for a next piece, you could choose:
- a pair of dances (from almost any suite or partita);
- another three-part invention (one that presents a greater challenge to you);
- a light three-voice fugue from the well-tempered clavier (with or without the prelude).
- even a complete suite (such as the second french, or the first english), but then you would be talking about several works, not a pair.

about bach's suites, there is a clear overall difference: an english suite (but the first) comes with a heavy prelude, what have no parallel in any french one. then, the partitas' style generates more complex movements than the other suites, which tends to create a trickier whole. again, it's general and it's a group of more than six works that have very distinct levels.

best wishes!

[myriadwhims]

Personally, I don't really like the Sinfonias save for one, and I've never bothered to listen to the Suites.  How about.. Skip straight to the Preludes and Fugues?  Those are far more interesting.  They're not all equally difficult either, as someone mentioned previously.

This is also the route that one of my former teachers took, and I agree with him.

[communist]

I did it in this order;

Two part inventons

three part sinfonias

5 preludes and fugues from the WTC (2 three voice, 2 four voice and one five voice)

French suite

English suite

Partita

of course, with some stuff in between.

[weissenberg2]

I have done 3 inventions, I am working on my 2nd sinfonia, my teacher wants me to do the D major sinfonia and start the WTC, starting with the C minor from book 1.