Ok, we all know digital pianos are bad if compared to the real thing...

[justliam]

but how bad?

Let's put aside things like the obvious touch difficulties and levels of dynamics and colour, tone etc.

But how bad are they in terms of what you actually can or can't play?

In terms of say rebound action of the keys, and general velocity, is it near impossible to play advanced pieces on a digital piano, never mind playing them well?

Obviously the digital debate has been discussed a lot, but normally in terms of how the can't play a piece well, but could a professional concert pianist play Rach 3 on a digital and have it sound half decent, is it an impossibility?

These problems can of course occur on an old or unserviced piano with keys sticking and a large number of other problems, but with a digital it has the set backs right from the start.

Any thoughts?  Any professional or semi-professional, or very high level pianists tried to play a piece they were comfortable with on a digital and found they couldn't?

I'm curious because I've never heard it discussed like this, thanks.

[cmg]

There's a lot of negative feelings about digital pianos on this forum, so all you'll hear is that they will cripple your technique, taint your musicality and teach you to do nothing but overpedal.  Perhaps. 

But not for me.  However, I learned as a kid on acoustic pianos and only found a digital useful when I moved into an apartment in NYC where neighbors b*itched incessantly about musicians practicing.  I talked to a reputable piano technician here and he recommended a Kawai Professional Stage Piano.  I tell you, it's wonderful for my purposes.  Playing with headphones, I sound like I'm playing a 9-foot grand in Carnegie Hall.

The action almost perfectly mimics an acoustic with its weighted wooded keys.

It's not perfect, but neither is some crumby spinet with a tinny sound and shallow keybed.

Now I'll get flamed, so step back.

p.s. I play the Rach 2nd on this piano and it sounds friggin' great.  Furthermore, the action is actually better than a lot of Yamaha grands I've played the same concerto on!

[richard black]

You can play a keyboard faster than a real piano - just listen to Django Bates (who plays both, in very different styles).

Funnily enough, practising on a stage keyboard, with ultra-light plastic keys (but velocity sensitive, of course) is quite good training for a 'real' pianist, because it forces you to think about the _speed_ the key goes down - since there's no mass to speak of, it's no use thinking of the force you need to push the key down with. Thinking speed is one of the best ways of ensuring your technique is readily adaptable to widely varying pianos.

In terms of sound, a digital instrument is never going to sound better (at best) than a really, really good recording of a real piano, and having had considerable experience of recording and replay equipment and techniques over many years, I can say with confidence that to achieve a really good reproduction of a piano you need some very impressive equipment - not least the loudspeakers, which are likely to cost as much as a decent second-hand grand piano and take up nearly as much room, for a pair, as a small upright piano. Of course the speakers built into most digital keyboards are pretty rubbish and driven by generally quite puny amplifiers, so at the very least you can expect to need some seriously chunky outboard equipment to get the best sound out of the thing.

[mrba1979]

O.K. so the Great Gate of Keive is a not as complicated as any of the Rach pieces but it is a heavy piece and I learned it on a digital Piano.  I own a Clavinova and I have been happy with it.  I am not saying I do not long for an acoustic piano, but I have no trouble practicing on the Clavinova and then performing on an acoustic.  Here are some of the differences I notice:  (Quick back story however I grew up practicing on a Kawaii upright, and my mother still has it so I do still play with that piano as well.  I also on occasion perform at a small gallery with a Kholer and Campbel spinet.)  It is a marginal difference but dynamics are easier to control on both the acoustic pianos.  I can never get the digital to sound exactly the way I want.  It is especially noticeable with Revere by Debussy.  The digital just does not give a soft mellow strike.  The plastic on the digital keys make fingers more prone to slipping especially in dry cold weather.  I know acoustic pianos are plastic coated but the two I play are less slippery, I can not say that is for all acoustic though.  One other difference I have noticed is the keys on the acoustics are more spring like, but I think that is from them being upright.  I do not play grands often enough to know if there is a difference there.  Weight action wise my digital piano is heavier which I like for the big chords, but does slow me down slightly in faster pieces though this is very negligible.

Some of the pluses of the digital piano I own are it came with a five year warranty, when I am broke I do not have to pay for tuning, headphones to help save my marriage, heavy enough (about 100lbs) for sturdiness but light enough to move around, it does not loose its tune when you move it around, and despite its drawbacks it really does have a nice sound to it.

I would say there is a pitfall price wise.  I have seen many here considering a digital piano because of price.  For the price of a good digital piano you can buy a good acoustic piano.  When buying a digital or acoustic really the choice should be what fits your lifestyle best. Mine cost around $1700us(sorry do not know currency conversions) after bargaining them down $400us (little did I know they where shortly going out of business) and that was only the basic model. My model still sells new for around that price.  

One other thing to consider is the more you pay for a piano the more likely you are to have a quality instrument (theoretically).  The more you pay for a digital piano however you just get more bells and whistles, but not a better sounding instrument.
So it is best to buy simple with digital unless you have something specific in mind.  

[cmg]

You can play a keyboard faster than a real piano - just listen to Django Bates (who plays both, in very different styles).

Funnily enough, practising on a stage keyboard, with ultra-light plastic keys (but velocity sensitive, of course) is quite good training for a 'real' pianist, because it forces you to think about the _speed_ the key goes down - since there's no mass to speak of, it's no use thinking of the force you need to push the key down with. Thinking speed is one of the best ways of ensuring your technique is readily adaptable to widely varying pianos.

In terms of sound, a digital instrument is never going to sound better (at best) than a really, really good recording of a real piano, and having had considerable experience of recording and replay equipment and techniques over many years, I can say with confidence that to achieve a really good reproduction of a piano you need some very impressive equipment - not least the loudspeakers, which are likely to cost as much as a decent second-hand grand piano and take up nearly as much room, for a pair, as a small upright piano. Of course the speakers built into most digital keyboards are pretty rubbish and driven by generally quite puny amplifiers, so at the very least you can expect to need some seriously chunky outboard equipment to get the best sound out of the thing.

With all due respect, I find the action on my Kawai Pro Stage Piano to be more difficult to achieve velocity on than on many Yamaha grands I alternate with.  It's slightly less springy.  And there IS "mass" to think about.  The keys are made of wood and weighted with lead!  Even my ancient Mason & Hamlin is "easier" to play.  This digital has challenged my approach to technique, particularly in sharpening my skills at the so-called "thumb-over" approach to fast scales.  It forced me to adopt an approach to velocity that most other acoustics did not.

And again, I've never advocated for those crap speakers that come with digitals.  Who would?  The point is silent practice, isn't it?  And using GOOD headphones, I have to say I disagree with you about sound reproduction -- it's often equal to many recordings you can hear on 9-foot concert instruments.  I program mine only for a 9-foot instrument and the samplings are taken from Kawai's nine-foot grands.  That's the sound that's produced through headphones.  That's the sound I get.

Yes, there are limits.  Playing Debussy on my digital is not as satisfying as playing it on  an excellent acoustic.  But, I propose that Debussy, of all composers, demands an almost perfect acoustic instrument.  And how many are those around?

Everything is about compromise, but a digital is an excellent PRACTICE instrument for any serious student who needs his practicing silenced for the people around him.  The action is NOT markedly inferior to acoustics and superior to most practice instruments inflicted upon me as a student.  The sound -- through good headphones -- is a revelation.  Forget the speakers.  I'd love to play my great acoustic all the time, but my neighbors would literally sue me.  The digital has given me my life back!       

[richard black]

find the action on my Kawai Pro Stage Piano to be more difficult to achieve velocity on than on many Yamaha grands I alternate with

Yes, it would be - the really fast ones are the ones that are not intended to feel anything like a piano. They're also the ones with ultra-light plastic keys.

Headphones - fair enough, I'd agree that good headphones give a better sound than practically any loudspeaker. I've recently reviewed many of the world's best headphones (prices up to £1000) for a UK hi-fi mag so I'm well aware of what the standards are like in that area.

[claude_debussy]

Yamaha CP-33 and Grado SR60 headphones.  Can't live without them. 

The instrument sounds beautiful for most music, nearly 80% of piano sound you need.  That last 20% will have to come from an acoustic instrument.   

But this is not a crippling limitation at all.  Most pianos are very compromised in tone and action until you reach the top of the mountain.   

If you can only practice at night, or have kids or neighbors nearby, this is a great way to go. 

The Casio PX series (ours is a PX 800) are also wonderful digital pianos - bought one for my daughter, but almost kept it because I liked it so much.  The Kawai K4 is likewise a terrific instrument.

The canard about digital pianos crippling technique is nonsense - not practicing will cripple your technique a lot faster!  Digital pianos such as Yamaha, Kawai and Roland with weighted action are close enough to do serious work.  Chopin etudes are best practiced on a keyboard with an even touch response.  It's also attractive that you don't always have to make a lot of noise when practicing loud passages ..

Finally, don't forget that Liszt, Anton Rubinstein and many other concert artists of the 19th century traveled everywhere with 'dummy' keyboards so they could practice on the road.  They didn't even have sound ..

My acoustic piano is a Steinway B, recently rebuilt with great success.   It's gorgeous, but I never mind playing the Yamaha CP33.

peace to all  CD



 

[yuc4h]

I use Roland RD-700GX with Akg K701 headphones for silent practice and Dynaudio BM6 mkii studio monitors for annoying neightbours. By using either one of these for output the sound is absolutely fantastic. (of course it cannot be compared to the sound of a real concert grand, but surely beats the sh*t out of the cheaper grands and uprights)

About the touch I have to say that I have yet to see an upright that has even nearly as good touch as the GX. I have also played some smaller Yamaha grands and I think that the touch of my digipiano also beats most of them. GX is the first digipiano that I have seen to also produce a realistic hammer escapement. Those who say that digital keyboards are so much inferior to the real pianos are those who have never tried the newer professional keyboards.

I don't think there is any limit in the level of technique you can acquire by playing a professional digital piano, but you have to be prepared to spend like 2k$-3k$ to get one.