Scriabin Etude op. 8 no. 12

[jennbo]

well i've decided to postpone on the tempest sonata.
so how hard is the scriabin etude in comparison to the op. 31 no. 2 sonata?
i haven't looked at it.
it sounds hard
it sounds heartwrenching
i want to cry
i love martha argerich/horowitz's versions.
im rambling.

[maxy]

The etude is very short, the sonata is long.  Hard to compare...  Mechanically, the etude is harder, the left hand moves quite a lot but the jumps are pretty much all the same.  Once you manage  to  play a tempo,  80% of the work is done, IMO.

For the sonata, it's a whole different story, being able to play the piece a tempo is maybe 40% of the work.

Both pieces require different types of work.

I personally had more fun with the etude.

[ilovemusic]

I actually want to play this etude, because I like it very much. Say if I were to make this piece my goal to play in 2 years time, what would be (easier) pieces that would prepare me for this ?

I am currently able to play grade 5 pieces, and can deliver a very rough version of Liebestraume 3, which still needs to polished. And polished again.

For the moment I have most difficulty playing 3 against 4. So what are easier pieces that have this rythm ?

Regards, Joost

[Hmoll]

I actually want to play this etude, because I like it very much. Say if I were to make this piece my goal to play in 2 years time, what would be (easier) pieces that would prepare me for this ?

I am currently able to play grade 5 pieces, and can deliver a very rough version of Liebestraume 3, which still needs to polished. And polished again.

For the moment I have most difficulty playing 3 against 4. So what are easier pieces that have this rythm ?

Regards, Joost

I have to say, that is a very intelligent approach, and the way you framed the question shows you gave it a lot of serious thought.

Sorry, just wanted to throw in that compliment, however, I can't help you  much with the etude because I've never played it. Playing some easier Scriabin might be good preparation for this etude. Even though he does not use this rhythm all the time, he uses a lot of interesting rhythms, and that might prepare you for solving those types of problems, while getting an ear for the composer.

Fantasie impromtu is probably the most famous 3 vs 4 piece.

[ilovemusic]

I have to say, that is a very intelligent approach, and the way you framed the question shows you gave it a lot of serious thought.

Playing some easier Scriabin might be good preparation for this etude. Even though he does not use this rhythm all the time, he uses a lot of interesting rhythms, and that might prepare you for solving those types of problems, while getting an ear for the composer.

Fantasie impromtu is probably the most famous 3 vs 4 piece.

Thanks ! (I have had more negative feedback in the past...) I really like playing, sadly the road to  the pieces I like to play is long and hard (but very nice nonetheless).

Hmm, I think the fantasy impomptu is a goal in itself to play. I do not like it as much as the etude. Easier Scriabin ? I have a book with all his etudes and preludes, I'll check it out. I like the left hand etude too !

Funny thing: I manage to play the left or the right hand of op.8 no.12, but when I join them: ouch !

Furthermore a more technical question: I can't stretch d# to g#, which is in the left hand. What to do ? Just play the lower d#, or play d# and quickly jump to g# ?

Joost.

[pianiststrongbad]

Hi, I have played this piece just this last year.  There is very little 3 against 4.  If you practice this piece slowly it shouldn't be that bad rhythmically to think about.  I recall it being more 2 against 3 in a few passages- towards the end.  Anyway, this and the tempest are two entirely different pieces.  I think of the tempest as the more difficult of the two, not just because of the length, but because of those damn tremalos and other things.  Anyway, for the scriabin if you are determined I hope you can reach atleast a 9th comfortably, because otherwise this piece will be painful (you have to roll 11ths in a few places, at a quick tempo).  You also need to be careful to not play the entire thing FFF which is very easy to do in my opinion.  Best of luck!

[ilovemusic]

Hi, I have played this piece just this last year.  There
is very little 3 against 4.  If you practice this piece slowly it
shouldn't be that bad rhythmically to think about.

Anyway, for the scriabin if you are determined I hope you can
reach at least a 9th comfortably, because otherwise this piece
will be painful (you have to roll 11ths in a few places, at a
quick tempo).

Yeah, it very little, but still: it's there, I can't simply ignore
it ! But I'll try playing slowly. I don't know how difficult the
rest will be if I can play -say- the first few measures. A few
months ago it seemed to dounting, and I stopped trying.

I can play D#-F#, but to G# it's to much of a stretch, and I doubt
it if I will ever be able to reach that far (my hands still become
more and more flexible, but a 10th seems to be the limit.) So roll
those 11ths ? Hmm, sounds not as powerfull as playing them as a
chord, but there seems to be no alternative (except playing with
extensions  ).

Thanks for the suggestions !

Joost.

[pianiststrongbad]

I have only heard the 11ths rolled, I have never heard them actually played, I think Horowitz rolls them also.  Note, they are rolled very quickly, I mean you literally play the d# and go to the g# as fast as you can.  once you do it a few times, it is pretty comfortable.  The tricky part in this piece is keeping relaxed muscles in the last two pages.  Otherwise the sound will be very harsh

[bachmaninov]

Sorry Donjuan... I know how much you LOVE Horowitz but this must be said!

*Horowitz has 2 recordings that I know of... No 12. They are both probably the most hideous attempts of capturing the essense of a piece... We all know Scriabin as the "madman" with his dark and diabolic and yet romantic music... But Horowitz simply bashes and hacks at the piano like a fool in Etude No 12. Unlike his recording of Scriabins Sonata No 5, which he actually plays well...

Some advice on how to play the Etude is playing the Left hand slowly until you can play it fluintly without much effort. And you really must bring out the right hand (Which remains as the melody for the entire piece). Relize that Scriabin is listed as a "romantic" composer, so go ahead and add a ritard at the end of some phrases to make the piece "breath" more. It is important to do this... Otherwise you will sould like Horowitz... and his hands of lead bashing into the piano... that's pretty much it.

*The tempo of the piece varies... depending on your personal style... "Pateticio" Is not a very fixed tempo in my opinion.

[allchopin]

They are both probably the most hideous attempts of capturing the essense of a piece... We all know Scriabin as the "madman" with his dark and diabolic and yet romantic music... But Horowitz simply bashes and hacks at the piano like a fool in Etude No 12.

Well, you really dislike Horowitz's recording of this don't you.  Others might say he's 'passionate'...  Do you have his live recording or other?

[bitus]

Bachmaninov... i must admit Horowitz' recordings aren't the most "romantic" i've heard, but if he recorded them that way is because he wanted the etude to sound like that, and that's the same for all great pianists who recorded music.

Jennbo, i'm playing the etude right now. You must draw in your mind how the left hand is moving. Slow practice with left hand means that you follow a line in your movement, and you go to the next note at 100% precision taking in consideration towards what point the hand is moving, and not having your hand moving in the same way two consecutive notes (balance it at very slow speed). Do not allow yourself to play any off-tempo or wrong notes.

If you have problem with 2/3 or 4/3, try playing the op. 8 no. 9 (c# i think)
Here's a way to make it work: 4/3  - you draw 12 lines, and on the top you separate them into 4, and bottom in 3, and start counting at very slow speed the 12, accentuating the 4 on right hand and 3 on left. Progress until you reach the speed you want the etude to sound at.

Also, 3/2 is op. 8 no. 8 (A-flat). Very beautifull etude... one of my favorite Scriabin... Has the main theme in 2/2 and then 3/2 and 4/2... you should try at least sight-reading it. Also, Chopin has the Three small etudes... i don't know what opus they are... but the second one, in A-flat is only 3/2, also beautiful harmony and melody.

Don't strech! I almost destroyed my hand because i streched too much... i can get the d# to g#, but i'm rolling it. Your hand's natural position is not streched, and when you strech it, you are forcing your muscles and tendons.
Hope this helps.
Bitus.

[ilovemusic]

Hmm, yeah, I like Horowitz version very much. Ok, it looks as if he's destroying the piano, but I think sounds great. Played with power and passion. I do not care if it's played how it is 'supposed' to sound, I just want to like it ! And Horowitz can't be that bad an interpreter.

But a now a bit conserning the fingering in the second measure... Should the second A# be played with finger 2 or 3 ?


And op.8 no. 8/9: are they easy as compared to 12 ?
Joost.
Joost.

[dj]

*Horowitz has 2 recordings that I know of... No 12.

hmmm....im pretty sure i've heard 3 and i don't really even dig around for recordings much. and the live one from 1982 is excellent.

[ilovemusic]

Hmm, yeah, I like Horowitz version very much. Ok, it looks as if he's destroying the piano, but I think sounds great. Played with power and passion. I do not care if it's played how it is 'supposed' to sound, I just want to like it ! And Horowitz can't be that bad an interpreter.

But a now a bit conserning the fingering in the second measure... Should the second A# be played with finger 2 or 3 ?

Use finger 2. I Recommend not to hold the finger in the next 16th, and to use the 2nd finger as a pivot for the next pivot.

Joost

[nicco]

Use finger 2. I Recommend not to hold the finger in the next 16th, and to use the 2nd finger as a pivot for the next pivot.

Joost

are you aware you have quoted and helped yourself?

[ilovemusic]

are you aware you have quoted and helped yourself?

Yes

[ilovemusic]

Of course

[counterpoint]

op.8 no.12 is awkward difficult.

You should have mastered some really hard works before playing this. Beethoven op.32 no.2 is much easier, worlds apart!

As a preliminary practice I would recommend something like Schumann Abegg-Variations or Mendelssohn Variations serieuses.

[chopiabin]

Yeah, I started on the Tempest, and it's "technically" easier than the etude, but for me, I find Bach, Beethoven, and MOZART especially are especially difficult in general. I started studying piano about 4-5 years ago, and never went through the the Bach training etc. - I've learned bits and pieces, but the combination of transparency, metronomic perfection...I don't know.

On the other hand, I play Chopin especially well (comparatively at least), as well as Rach, and what little Scriabin I've played.



The thing is, however, the etude is much shorter, but very difficult to play well - all Beethoven is relatively difficult to play well (especially faster pieces), but the sonata is much longer - you have to sustain the audienecs attention without the crazy crescendos of the 8#12.

[phil13]

And op.8 no. 8/9: are they easy as compared to 12 ?
Joost.
Joost.

Op.8 No.8 is much easier, Op.8 No.9 is, IMO, the hardest of that set of etudes. I once tried it and had to give up on it after only 2 weeks. It's like 8/12 on crack- especially the LH, which sometimes has to jump more than a 15th in octaves, going at about q=108-112 in triplets.

I have played Op.8 No.12, and there are a few more technical issues than, of course, the 3 on 4 and the jumps and stretches in the LH. Depending on whether or not you choose to accelerate in the climax, the repeated notes can be hard to pull off. I pulled a tendon in my RH trying to move them too quickly. Also, the middle section requires a finesse of touch, playing the octaves more legato and less vertically than the rest of the piece.

All in all, a difficult etude, but not the worst of them. That's my 2¢.

Phil

[counterpoint]

In my opinion (and experience), op.8 no.9 is easier than op.8 no.12

If you take enough time for the big jumps, they are playable quite well. The tempo marking is "Alla ballata", which I understand as: the tempo has to be very flexible and not too fast.

[verywellmister]

op.8 no.12 is awkward difficult.

You should have mastered some really hard works before playing this. Beethoven op.32 no.2 is much easier, worlds apart!

As a preliminary practice I would recommend something like Schumann Abegg-Variations or Mendelssohn Variations serieuses.

I would don't think 8/12 is as hard as the Mendelssohn (which is as tough or harder than any liszt Hungarian Rhapsody).

[ilovemusic]

Hmm, so far I think the etude is ok, it greatly improves my accuracy and octave technique. I
can play the everything in tempo in principle, but I still need to memorize it and get more control. I personaly find Rach. prel. op.23 no.5 harder (if played at mm.108), I hope this piece will help me with that.

I am not affraid to pull a tendon, I have been rock climbing for 8 years, and the tendons in my hands are very strong. Plus I can only play the piece when I play with light arms, otherwise I miss everything.

Now, the 3 against for does not give me any problems anymore. It solved itself somehow.

Thanks for the replies !

Joost

[term]

But Horowitz simply bashes and hacks at the piano like a fool in Etude No 12. Unlike his recording of Scriabins Sonata No 5, which he actually plays well...
[...]
so go ahead and add a ritard at the end of some phrases to make the piece "breath" more. It is important to do this... Otherwise you will sould like Horowitz... and his hands of lead bashing into the piano... that's pretty much it.

Actually, he does add some rit. here and there in the recording i heard on youtube. He doesn't bash at all. He's loud and furious at some parts but that's absolutely ok. If you hear the horowitz recording on youtube you can see that he understood the message of that etude.
Afaik, scriabin could barely reach an octave and this etude is clearly for big hands. What does that tell us?

Just btw.

[el nino]

op.8 no.12 is awkward difficult.

You should have mastered some really hard works before playing this. Beethoven op.32 no.2 is much easier, worlds apart!

As a preliminary practice I would recommend something like Schumann Abegg-Variations or Mendelssohn Variations serieuses.

what's the connection between abegg and 8/12? techicaly they are competely different

[el nino]

I would don't think 8/12 is as hard as the Mendelssohn (which is as tough or harder than any liszt Hungarian Rhapsody).

i play 8/12 and hr12 and i can say hr is harder in every way. at least to me

[counterpoint]

what's the connection between abegg and 8/12? techicaly they are competely different

Surely these are complete different pieces. But my thought was, that one should be able to approach "technical" difficulties by musical understanding whats happening. Someone who understands (=can play well) Abegg-Variations has a better starting point for music of Scriabin. The difficulties in Scriabin are much more musical than technical. That's the difference between Liszt and Scriabin.

[phil13]

i play 8/12 and hr12 and i can say hr is harder in every way. at least to me

But do you play the Mendelssohn variations? (which is what the reference was)

Phil

[el nino]

But do you play the Mendelssohn variations? (which is what the reference was)

Phil

no,but my friends does,who obviously isn't able to play 8/12 or hr12

[chopiabin]

I'm amazed at all the Horowitz dissing! Have you guys seen his performance of the piece on  The Art of Piano? I think he plays it with more intelligence, artistry, and virtuosity than any other pianist I've heard.  The repeated chord section?! Damn....

[verywellmister]

What I meant to say was

harder
Mendelssohn/Liszt
Scriabin
easier