Trill...

[lizz93]

Dear members,

I've been a pianostudent for about 5 years, and I'm doing pretty well...
The only thing that's been hampering me for years is my weak trill
When I try to practice it with all different methods, I get cramps in my whole arm, resulting in a stiff, unmovable hand and arm.

Could anyone help me?
Sincerely..

[general disarray]

Trills are tricky, lizz.  Many folks get a mental block over them.  But once you get the trick, they're a total fun-zone.

First off, don't bear down with tension when you approach them.  RELAX.  Totally.  Let your hand/arm drop onto the keyboard and rest your hand there, with the two fingers on the keys you will be trilling with.  Say, 2 & 3 on C and D with the right hand.  Now, very slowly, play 3 (D) and feel how the weight of your hand flops over, ever so slightly, to the right.  Actually exaggerate this feeling with a tilt of the hand to the right.  Now, next, let your hand transfer its weight to 2 (C) and feel the weight shift to the left.  Repeat.  It's like a rocking movement, yes?  You see, trills are not just the quick oscillation of fingers, but the engagement of the entire hand and the arm to which it is attached.  The fingers, actually are just the guidance system.

Naturally, as you speed up the playing of the two notes, the rocking motion gets less and less perceptible to the eye, but it's still there and if you are not totally relaxed, you won't be able to get the speed up.  And if you DO get the speed up with a stiff mechanism, you'll experience tension and some pain.  Ultimately, the trill will be unplayable.

Practice this way, very slowly, and concentrate on RELAXATION.  You'll get it in time.

Hope this helps.     

[javacisnotrecognized]

"Cramps in my whole arm"

Can you tell me where this cramp is located? Is it really throughout the whole arm, or is it in different parts? Is it particularly near the elbow?

[lizz93]

Thanks a lot, General Dissaray
It really helped!

Regards,
Lizz

[lizz93]

To javacisnotrecognised:

Before the tip, I would get extreme pain in the part of the arm nearby the elbow...Tough the problem's solved now, I still dont know why I got that.

Sincerly,
Lizz

[wannabe]

I have a problem with left hand trills.  I have a minor mozart all memorized, up to tempo-except for the left hand trills.  I am beginning to wonder if I am capable of getting them.  Piano is so frustrating. 

[javacisnotrecognized]

I have a problem with left hand trills.  I have a minor mozart all memorized, up to tempo-except for the left hand trills.  I am beginning to wonder if I am capable of getting them.  Piano is so frustrating. 

Do a trill with your right hand, and look at your arm. Now play a trill with your left hand, while doing the same thing with your left arm.

[thalbergmad]

Piano is so frustrating. 

Yeh, but the rewards are immense.

I must admit i use the Hanon trill exercises (shock horror) for just a few minutes a day.

Thal

[quantum]

Do a trill with your right hand, and look at your arm. Now play a trill with your left hand, while doing the same thing with your left arm.

I do this often with techniques that seem to do well in one hand but not the other.

[m]

I heard K has very good trills. Maybe she could share some experience 

[m19834]

I heard K has very good trills. Maybe she could share some experience 

Well, thank you , I can do my best to put it into solely text.  Before I met my mentor I didn't really have any specific way to do trills, and I always just kind of hoped for the best.  One of the biggest challenges for me has been to be able to not get tightened up in my forearm and the rest of my arm, so as to keep the trill "flowing" for whatever the duration needs to be, which in my current repertoire is sometimes for quite a while (by comparison to an ornamental trill for a note/beat or so).

One of the first things he had me do with regard to trills was to let my arm drop to my side, completely relaxed, and feel a kind of "vibration" in my whole arm that looks like I am kind of having a big muscle spasm or so (that is not a very text-friendly experience), hee hee.  Then, as the arm vibrates, lift it to the piano without changing anything, place the hand/fingers at the notes and let the "vibration" give the trill.  I went home and worked with this a bit, as well as keeping in mind and working with a few other ideas, too.  Another thing I have been working with him on is learning how to release any tension after/at the moment of "attack" on each key.  Along with that sense of arm vibration, I was conscious to release after each finger played.

One of the symptoms of tension during trills (and in other times of playing) is to have other fingers in the trill hand lifted off the keys and curled high and such.  So, I realized that I needed to somehow maintain the rest of my hand/fingers as resting on the keys, even while trilling.  This was an interesting step to me, because as I focused on my NON-trilling fingers being completely at ease and touching/resting on the keys they were on, it seemed to also free up my trill quite a bit, as well.  At that point, I started to feel that vibration in my arm in a whole new way.  I could feel it through my entire arm and even in my neck and head, yet the rest of my fingers were resting quietly on their respective keys.  And, once that happened, I realized I was achieving a kind of relaxation and control during my trills that I had never had before, as well as an ease and flow in the sound of my trills that I had never had before, either.  And then, similarly to what Java suggested, I had my RH teach my LH, and it worked.

I am still working on them, of course, and trills between some fingers are easier for me than others.  I am exploring now different "shades" of trill character, too, hee hee.  Sometimes I still get stiff, but a couple of adjustments in how I am thinking about the trill sends the needed adjustments in the technique and sound, too.

[general disarray]

Karli's truly the Trill Goddess!   

[m19834]

Well, I wasn't aware that there is such a thing  .  However, if there is and I can truly live up to the title, then I am happy to be one  .

[ahinton]

Yeh, but the rewards are immense.

I must admit i use the Hanon trill exercises (shock horror) for just a few minutes a day.

And that's quite long enough, I'd say! Much longer than that and it might drive some people to - play the banjo...

One issue that can present problems for a lot of players is the kinds of double / multiple trill where opportunity for the use of alternate fingers does not present itself - for example, in right hand, C/A flat to D flat/B flat, where the fingering for all but those with the most freakish hands would have to be 1/4 - 2/5. OK, this kind of instance doesn't crop up with the regularity of single trills, of course, but it's still part of the subject, I guess...

Best,

Alistair

[m19834]

One issue that can present problems for a lot of players is the kinds of double / multiple trill where opportunity for the use of alternate fingers does not present itself - for example, in right hand, C/A flat to D flat/B flat, where the fingering for all but those with the most freakish hands would have to be 1/4 - 2/5. OK, this kind of instance doesn't crop up with the regularity of single trills, of course, but it's still part of the subject, I guess...

Best,

Alistair

I want to try it  .  But, I admit I don't quite understand.  You mean, C/Ab and Db/Bb are happening at the same time, right ?  And if so, how do the exact notes being trilled between remain an entity in sound ?  I mean, how does a listener know that the person is trilling between those two sets of notes, vs. some combination of other notes being played ?  So, why wouldn't a listener hear C/Db and Ab/Bb, vs. C/Ab and Db/Bb ?  And, does it mean that two fingers would be on, say, the lower part of each trill at the same time, and then the other two fingers on the upper part of the trill at the same time ?  Obviously I have never done a double trill before, or at least I can't remember doing so (though, it seems it would be something quite memorable).

[edit]  Okay, I realize that if C and Db, are depressed at the same time, those two would not be confused as being trilled between.  But, is that how it's done ? 

*listens to Vladmir Bakk* 

[pianowolfi]

Well, I wasn't aware that there is such a thing  .  However, if there is and I can truly live up to the title, then I am happy to be one  .

I remember you did some cool double trills in one of your improvs 

[m19834]

I remember you did some cool double trills in one of your improvs 

ha ha ... oh, yeah.  I think I vaguely remember that.  Well, I vaguely remember that I did those ... but, whether they were cool or not, I don't quite recall ... hee hee.  Was it in "consistency," if you happen to recall ?

*has loads of nervous energy*

[pianowolfi]

ha ha ... oh, yeah.  I think I vaguely remember that.  Well, I vaguely remember that I did those ... but, whether they were cool or not, I don't quite recall ... hee hee.  Was it in "consistency," if you happen to recall ?

I think it was "risky business"

*has loads of nervous energy*

That's understandable, best wishes

[go12_3]

Yeh, but the rewards are immense.

I must admit i use the Hanon trill exercises (shock horror) for just a few minutes a day.

Thal

I agree with Thal, here,  a few minutes a day will keep those trills going. 

[general disarray]

I remember you did some cool double trills in one of your improvs 

Speaking of double trills, pianowolfi, thanks to your direction to start on the upper note, I've gotten the Chopin "Barcarolle" double trills nailed!  Did some research and learned that almost all Chopin trills, single or double, begin on the upper note, unless otherwise indicated.  In the first double trill, it starts with D-sharp/B and alternates with C-double-sharp/A-sharp.  I found 4/1 alternating with 3/2 to work easily.  All the subsequent double trills work for me with the same fingering, give or take.

I really hate this key for reading though.  F# Major is great to play in but Chopin gets pretty daring harmonically and the I feel like I'm slashing through a thicket of double sharps and other jagged-edged accidentals.  Bleech.  But, it's about there. 

I simply invoke the power of K the Trill Goddess, and it falls into place.

Thanks!

[pianowolfi]

Yeah I know what you mean, I didn't play the Barcarolle yet but I've played the Impromptu in f# and there it's similar. These pieces are so delicate.

[ahinton]

I want to try it  .  But, I admit I don't quite understand.  You mean, C/Ab and Db/Bb are happening at the same time, right ?  And if so, how do the exact notes being trilled between remain an entity in sound ?  I mean, how does a listener know that the person is trilling between those two sets of notes, vs. some combination of other notes being played ?  So, why wouldn't a listener hear C/Db and Ab/Bb, vs. C/Ab and Db/Bb ?  And, does it mean that two fingers would be on, say, the lower part of each trill at the same time, and then the other two fingers on the upper part of the trill at the same time ?  Obviously I have never done a double trill before, or at least I can't remember doing so (though, it seems it would be something quite memorable).

[edit]  Okay, I realize that if C and Db, are depressed at the same time, those two would not be confused as being trilled between.  But, is that how it's done ? 

*listens to Vladmir Bakk* 

I'm talking about two simultaneous trills - C with D flat and A flat with B flat in the same (right) hand.

Best,

Alistair

[ted]

I have always found double note playing in all its forms, including double trills, to be a really good flexibility exercise. The challenge for me is to work them in all the possible finger combinations, keyboard positions, dynamics and touch styles, in ways which produce musically interesting results in improvisation. If I just want purely physical practice regardless of sound, I use my silent practice clavier on about five or six ounces.

I think it helps greatly to create musically enjoyable sounds with any playing form. Physical mastery comes far more quickly that way than by just repeating the same old daily movements as a chore. Most probably, these improvised studies will not be musical masterpieces but that consideration is far outweighed by the fun you have and the accelerated fluency.

I posted one such session a few months ago:

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,29348.0.html

A similar sort of thing can be done with any movement.

[m]

One issue that can present problems for a lot of players is the kinds of double / multiple trill where opportunity for the use of alternate fingers does not present itself - for example, in right hand, C/A flat to D flat/B flat, where the fingering for all but those with the most freakish hands would have to be 1/4 - 2/5. OK, this kind of instance doesn't crop up with the regularity of single trills, of course, but it's still part of the subject, I guess...

This one indeed is tricky! My favorite fingering for double trills is 24/15 (or 23/15), which makes the trills in Chopin's Polonaise Phantasy, Andante Spianato and Grand Polonaise Brillante going like a breeze. I don't have the most freakish hands, but the R.H. C/Ab to D/Bb would not be a problem, as I could use the 24/15. The Db makes it really awkward.
It is hard to say without knowing the context, but if I had this dilemma and had to play this kind of thing real fast, I'd cheat and do some clever trick like tremolo C/Db/Ab to Bb. Anyway, in fast tempo nobody would be able to tell the difference.

Best, M

[m]

I don't have the most freakish hands, but the R.H. C/Ab to D/Bb would not be a problem, as I could use the 24/15. The Db makes it really awkward.
It is hard to say without knowing the context, but if I had this dilemma and had to play this kind of thing real fast, I'd cheat and do some clever trick like tremolo C/Db/Ab to Bb. Anyway, in fast tempo nobody would be able to tell the difference.

Alistair,

Actually, after checking it on instrument the best solution is to play it as C/Bb to Db/Ab with 15/24. In tempo nobody would ever tell a difference.

Best, M