4th finger independence

[thalbergmad]

Now try this again, but as you turn the glass upside down, watch your elbow.

Great, i have just soaked me foot.

Thal

[javacisnotrecognized]

Absolutely, moreover, not only all hands are different, but also all people are different, and everyone needs a different personal approach, as well. And this is my biggest problem with Bernhard, as I feel that his approach is rigid and seem to be carved into a stone--Scarlatti is good-Czerni is bad. Thumb over is good-thumb under is bad. His fingering for scales is good, conventional fingering is bad. Let's debunk that, this, and those, etc. etc. etc. , with no any hint on individual approach. This is where I see the "wrong message".

Ahh, so here we see the true culprit.

Bernhards philosophy is not "X is good, Y is bad". It is "One should not learn any piece of music for any other reason than that you love it; because life is not long enough compared to the amount of music there is". If you want to learn a Czerni study, fine. If you don't want to learn Scarlatti, fine.

But it remains the fact that most of Scarlatti's work is superior to Czerni's studies.

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,30361.0.html
https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,2260.0.html

[franzliszt2]

I don't get it, if I put my hand out in front of me, with the palm facing down, I rotate my forearm and get my thumb pointing upwards without any upper arm movement. I can't say I really need to use anymore rotatation than that. If I want more power, I will use the upper arm. But if I want a light tremolo I will use a smaller movement, and not employ the upper arm.

[javacisnotrecognized]

I don't get it, if I put my hand out in front of me, with the palm facing down, I rotate my forearm and get my thumb pointing upwards without any upper arm movement. I can't say I really need to use anymore rotatation than that. If I want more power, I will use the upper arm. But if I want a light tremolo I will use a smaller movement, and not employ the upper arm.

That's true; but then you need to remember to switch between the upper arm and forearm whenever you want to play FF vs. PP. It would probably be easier to use the upper arm for everything...

[franzliszt2]

Well you just have to remember then don't you. I don't use one fingering for all scales becasue it's easier to remember.

If I want a smaller sound, and need to rotate, I will keep the movements to a minimum. Just like when you play a fast quiet passage you don't play with raised fingers, you stay close, using smaller movements. Using the whole upper arm for a light tremelo would just feel awkard and clumsy.

[javacisnotrecognized]

If I want a smaller sound, and need to rotate, I will keep the movements to a minimum.

It takes less motion of the arm to move the same distance than does a motion of the forearm.

[m]

Bernhard has said a few times (Besides the experiments) that many of the concepts he speaks of do not translate well into writing; a demonstrative video or better yet a knowledgeable teacher are necessary. Since we have Youtube, it is possible to get the former

To sort out "Forearm rotation through a phrase", it's necessary to clarify some other stuff first.

That's all fine. I did not say that there should be no rotation. My point was in which musical context it should be used. While it is needed in Jeux d'eau, it is completely uncalled in a slow Bach prelude.

Ahh, so here we see the true culprit.

Bernhards philosophy is not "X is good, Y is bad". It is "One should not learn any piece of music for any other reason than that you love it;

As president Obama used to say during the campaign: "And here is our fundamental difference". 

I don't teach pieces the students love, I teach students how to love the pieces they play and ultimately how to love music and connect with it, both mentally and physically.
Music is a language and I teach my students how to express themselves, their thoughts, ideas, and emotions through this language. I give them necessary tools and means for that, so they can make their own decisions, when their body knows and can immediately respond according to the music context where should be used rotation, and when it needs a deep finger tip sinking.

Best, M

[ramseytheii]

It is really freaky convenient that you mention that.

Experiment: Fill up a glass of water, and then pour it into the sink.

Try this with both your left and your right hand.

Now try this again, but as you turn the glass upside down, watch your elbow.

Wonderful!  Occasionally, a student has trouble playing a succession of wide spaced chords on the piano.  For instance in the right hand, a chord in the upper register, then one quickly in the middle.  The image I always gave for them to be effective physically, was that of tilting a tea-pot - very similar to what you suggest. 

Walter Ramsey

[m]

@ marik:  thanks for your post.  And especially that link to your earlier technique posts.  You have a very holistic approach to technique that is better understood when one simply listens to your performances.  Everything is in that "Fourth Ballade" of yours.  Beauty of tone, singing line, impeccable phrasing that comes from that well balanced relationship your hands have with your entire body.  Very Russian and the way I was trained.  It's very hard to put this approach into words. 

@java:  and thanks for your fine post.  The videos do much to clarify the misunderstanding over Bernhard's use of terms that tend to confuse.  I especially love the Horowitz vid, since it reminds me of a friend who studied at Juilliard with Ania Dorfmann -- he told me she said to him one day, "Horowitz?  I heard him.  He can't play!"

Thank you CMG for kind words. Funny story about Horowitz  .

Here are a couple threads I was referring earlier, where I was debunking some myths and bubbles. Have a look if you feel bored :

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,19043.0.html

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,24398.0.html

Best, M

[lostinidlewonder]

What is meant by finger independence? The 4th might not be able to lift as high as the other fingers but that doesn't really matter does it? You never move fingers one by one they act as a whole and dependant on the group of notes requested by the piece you play.

[m]

What is meant by finger independence? The 4th might not be able to lift as high as the other fingers but that doesn't really matter does it?

Well, yeah. But then that's just because one should not lift the fingers to start with...

Once again, the 4th finger independance is just a matter of control of entire phrase or to reiterate, as you say: "You never move fingers one by one they act as a whole and dependant on the group of notes requested by the piece you play."

[javacisnotrecognized]

Well, yeah. But then that's just because one should not lift the fingers to start with...

What about for playing the black keys ?

[m]

What about for playing the black keys ?

What do you mean? It does not matter what keys you play. Your fingers just resting (or standing by) on the entire position, covering the most of it you can at the given time, regardless of the color of the keys.

Best, M

[db05]

Well, yeah. But then that's just because one should not lift the fingers to start with...

This is weird. Maybe not one by one. But what about alternating, as in a trill?

[javacisnotrecognized]

What do you mean? It does not matter what keys you play. Your fingers just resting (or standing by) on the entire position, covering the most of it you can at the given time, regardless of the color of the keys.

Best, M

On the majority of the pianos I've played, the black keys are higher than the white keys. So if you play a white key with a finger, and then want to play a black key with the same finger, it has to be lifted somehow. I am thinking that lifting it using the forearm etc. would not be optimal while playing fast.

[javacisnotrecognized]

Great, i have just soaked me foot.

Thal

Next time, don't stand in the sink!

[m]

On the majority of the pianos I've played, the black keys are higher than the white keys. So if you play a white key with a finger, and then want to play a black key with the same finger, it has to be lifted somehow. I am thinking that lifting it using the forearm etc. would not be optimal while playing fast.

I think the majority of instruments you've played had a right construction. I could concure that your thinking of lifting the finger by using the forearm (which by itself seems like a weird idea) as being not optimal is somehow seems to be correct. Otherwise, as a said many times on this board, without the context that is a fruitless question. As such, the best I can tell in this situation is the most efficient way would be for absolutely relaxed fingers "gliding" on the surface of the keys, without lifting them, but moving along the keys as close to their surface as possible.

Since it seems you like to have visual examples, please have a look at this video (esp. close ups), as an example of utmost efficiency, as well as natural, and effortless approach to technique, to understand what I mean. No arm rotation, no thumb over, no lifting fingers with forearm or otherwise, no nonsense, just impeccable straight to the point finger work from the surface of the keys:

Hope that was of help.

Best, M

[thalbergmad]

Next time, don't stand in the sink!

No good telling me that now.

Thal

[keypeg]

Experiment: Fill up a glass of water, and then pour it into the sink.

Try this with both your left and your right hand.

Now try this again, but as you turn the glass upside down, watch your elbow.

Initially hand turns, rotatated by forearm at elbow.  As glass starts going into upside-down position, elbow moves slightly outward and up to make room for the rest of the rotation as the forearm has reached its maximum turn.  To try to block that responsiveness would introduce tension all the way up to the shoulder.

Interesting experiment.

KP

[nick]

I think the majority of instruments you've played had a right construction. I could concure that your thinking of lifting the finger by using the forearm (which by itself seems like a weird idea) as being not optimal is somehow seems to be correct. Otherwise, as a said many times on this board, without the context that is a fruitless question. As such, the best I can tell in this situation is the most efficient way would be for absolutely relaxed fingers "gliding" on the surface of the keys, without lifting them, but moving along the keys as close to their surface as possible.

Since it seems you like to have visual examples, please have a look at this video (esp. close ups), as an example of utmost efficiency, as well as natural, and effortless approach to technique, to understand what I mean. No arm rotation, no thumb over, no lifting fingers with forearm or otherwise, no nonsense, just impeccable straight to the point finger work from the surface of the keys:

Hope that was of help.

Best, M

i love that recording and have seen it many times. Many pianists ask the question, "but how does one practice to produce this". At least i have in the past. My answer would be many many hours of half that speed practicing.

nick

[lostinidlewonder]

What about for playing the black keys ?

There are several positons of the hand at the piano. I usually call it White and Black position That means if your outside fingers (1-5) are on blacks your hand should be higher so that you can play the black note positions with a natural hand form. If the outsides are both on white then you play more flat to maintain the natural hand form. But then you can get situations where one of the outsides are white and the other black, this also causes a subtle position change which maintains the natural Chopin hand form.

I still don't get peoples problems with the 4th. Beginners have this problem but that is only because they have not had enough experience, but seasoned players? I can only imagine people will have difficultly with the 4th if they try to play it in isolation to the other fingers, but that is not correct piano technique to start with. You might feel the need to isolate the 4th if you are playing many notes with the other fingers and have to draw out a melody with it, that is possible but not something that happens frequently. However the 4th is attached to the hand and it can drop with the entire hand(forearm or even the entire body for that matter), you can feel gravity acting upon not only the 4th alone but the entire hand which supports the 4ths contact with the keys.

[go12_3]

I feel that the 4th finger has a mind of its own.......
and it takes repetition and exercises in order to get that finger to go and do what and where we want it to.  I think we can  have several an explanations about this finger, in which this post has already.   Trills and double 3rds are helpful and playing in a slow tempo so that the 4th finger won't freak out when it has to go at a faster tempo.  Each pianist has different hands and fingers, no one has the same hands; so for me, it's an individual quest to find what would work out best for each finger so that they can be more coordinated and work together. 

Best wishes,   
go12_3

[m]

I still don't get peoples problems with the 4th.

Most likely it is rather with trills, where indeed, it can be tricky to play evenly while maintaining speed. The common problem there is that most of the students (even with relaxed hands) start putting lots of strain and tension when it comes to those trills. The main thing is to be very consious of keeping it light and relaxed.

Best, M

[javacisnotrecognized]

Michelangeli is the guy who's technique I love the most. It is all encompassing; it is above the level of the greats. Calling it godly would be an understatement.

I can honestly say that I have learned more about how to play the piano from Michelangeli than I have from lessons, books, piano forum and practice combined. He is actually where I have derived the majority of my technical concepts from.

And he lifts his fingers too 

Check out this video (Which I consider to be one of the greatest visual demonstrations of His technical ability, to say nothing of music)

from 7:17 to 7:19, you can see his RH 3rd finger flying up and own, as a result of sympathetic motion from the 4th finger. The only way this could happen was if he was lifting it.

[general disarray]

And he lifts his fingers too 

Check out this video (Which I consider to be one of the greatest visual demonstrations of His technical ability, to say nothing of music)

from 7:17 to 7:19, you can see his RH 3rd finger flying up and own, as a result of sympathetic motion from the 4th finger. The only way this could happen was if he was lifting it.

java, why does finger-lifting strike you as being the hallmark of a well-developed technique?  Arrau, Rubinstein, whom I'm sure we both admire, are very close, very quiet at the keyboard. 

[javacisnotrecognized]

java, why does finger-lifting strike you as being the hallmark of a well-developed technique?  Arrau, Rubinstein, whom I'm sure we both admire, are very close, very quiet at the keyboard. 

I don't see it as anything of the sort. I see it as something that is necessary to navigate certain passages, and trying to avoid it (Under the notion that lifting the fingers will lead to injury, dual muscular pull, fatigue, etc) is an ultimately misguided action.

Lift the fingers when they need to be lifted. Let them rest on the key when you need to. Move them with the forearm/upper arm/etc. when you need to.

[general disarray]

Thanks, I understand.


For marik:  yes, I think the preoccupation with the 4th finger is mainly to do with trills and your advice about relaxation is noted.  You were enormously helpful to me some months ago with the trills in Beethoven Op. 101 final mvt. fugue.  Thanks so much.  It works like a charm!  But one of the biggest problems was keeping my thumb from being tense during 3-4 trills where the thumb had to grab at melody notes below the trill.  The only way I could keep that errant digit from being tense was to meter the trills and practice slowly, slowly, slowly, synchronizing thumb melody note with the same trilling note above it.  Ultimately, tension went away, but it really does lurk there for me when I'm trilling on 3-4 and plunking out the tune with the thumb.

Would you meter similar trills with thumb-tunes in Chopin, as well?  Or just concentrate on relaxation and lightness?  Metering Romantic period trills seems stodgy, somehow, but perhaps I'm wrong here.

In fact,

[m]

Michelangeli is the guy who's technique I love the most. It is all encompassing; it is above the level of the greats. Calling it godly would be an understatement.

Yes, his technique is a marvel of efficiency and control. His fingers are like little racing slot cars, which track with utmost precision.

And he lifts his fingers too 

Well, sometimes (albeit on extremely rare ocasions ) he even misses a note or two    .

But seriously, not to lift fingers should not be a self goal. It is rather a good indicator that everything is calm and relaxed, and with good control when your fingers are ready to translate the music image in your head. If for some reason (whether in order to create some special music effect, or out of physical necessity) you need to lift the finger--by all means, do it. It should be like your second nature--you don't pay attention to it, the music itself dictates your body what to do.

For marik:  yes, I think the preoccupation with the 4th finger is mainly to do with trills and your advice about relaxation is noted.  You were enormously helpful to me some months ago with the trills in Beethoven Op. 101 final mvt. fugue.  Thanks so much.  It works like a charm!  But one of the biggest problems was keeping my thumb from being tense during 3-4 trills where the thumb had to grab at melody notes below the trill.  The only way I could keep that errant digit from being tense was to meter the trills and practice slowly, slowly, slowly, synchronizing thumb melody note with the same trilling note above it.  Ultimately, tension went away, but it really does lurk there for me when I'm trilling on 3-4 and plunking out the tune with the thumb.

Would you meter similar trills with thumb-tunes in Chopin, as well?  Or just concentrate on relaxation and lightness?  Metering Romantic period trills seems stodgy, somehow, but perhaps I'm wrong here.

I am glad that was of help. I meter all the trills and try to know precisely how many notes I have to play--this way they come out much cleaner and with better control.

Usually, instead of 3-4 I use 3-5. Just come from the point that fingers teach each other. So start the trill with 2-3 (or whatever you feel comfortable). See and analyze all your physical senses and try to understand presisely what you do. Then go to 3-4 with exactly the same sensation.
Trill is always a combination of two things--finger work and rotation (I actually call it hand vibration). I like to treat those two tasks separately at first, and then combine together.
The main thing is to do it slowly (but not too slowly, you still need the feel of the flaw) and lightly, analyze every little detail, and concentrate on relaxation, rather than forcefully "building the fingers"  . The technique is all about finger tip sensitivity and control. Any force brutally kills those.

Best, M

[m]

Michelangeli is the guy who's technique I love the most. It is all encompassing; it is above the level of the greats. Calling it godly would be an understatement.

BTW, did you pay attention, he uses much less rotation, but relies rather on the finger work?
In fact, many big pianists did not use the rotation, but rather hand vibration, or "shaking out" the note successions, or the whole phrases. This is especcialy true for Russian school of pianism.

Best, M

[javacisnotrecognized]

BTW, did you pay attention, he uses much less rotation, but relies rather on the finger work?
In fact, many big pianists did not use the rotation, but rather hand vibration, or "shaking out" the note successions, or the whole phrases. This is especcialy true for Russian school of pianism.

Best, M

Do you have any videos that demonstrate rotation vs. vibration ?

[m]

Do you have any videos that demonstrate rotation vs. vibration ?

This is a hard one. Usually, those things are much easier to see with females, as the jacket does not hide the hands. Nevertheless, look here esp. at closeup @ 7.33. While you are on that pay attention on the hands and the way of sound production, when spreading on the surface fingers just sink into the keys producing some quite unbeliavable sonorities @ appr. 1.48:

 

Best, M

[general disarray]

I am glad that was of help. I meter all the trills and try to know precisely how many notes I have to play--this way they come out much cleaner and with better control.

Usually, instead of 3-4 I use 3-5. Just come from the point that fingers teach each other. So start the trill with 2-3 (or whatever you feel comfortable). See and analyze all your physical senses and try to understand presisely what you do. Then go to 3-4 with exactly the same sensation.
Trill is always a combination of two things--finger work and rotation (I actually call it hand vibration). I like to treat those two tasks separately at first, and then combine together.
The main thing is to do it slowly (but not too slowly, you still need the feel of the flaw) and lightly, analyze every little detail, and concentrate on relaxation, rather than forcefully "building the fingers"  . The technique is all about finger tip sensitivity and control. Any force brutally kills those.

Best, M

Thanks again for your advice.   

And, wow, that Gilels Prokofiev is electrifying, isn't it? Everything you could ever want in a pianist embodied in one man in this performance.  After that massive, gorgeous sound, I admire that rhythmic sense.  Solid as a rock.  And elemental somehow; Nature itself.