the music of K.S. Sorabji

[ahinton]

This chap ought to be hired for the next OC performance.

According to who? Not you, surely, given your oft-declared disinterest in the work. Would you hire him yourself (let's see the colour of your money)...

He appears to have the required technique.

For what?

Best,

Alistair

[indutrial]

This chap ought to be hired for the next OC performance.

He appears to have the required technique.

Thal

This makes me wish they still had video arcades in the States, though I probably wouldn't play a game like this. Thanks for putting a dark cloud over my head Thal 

[thalbergmad]

No, Thal - it is obviously you who has the problem; you don't like the piece (which is fine) and would rather very few others do (which is none of your business), yet the recordings keep selling and the performances occur and there is nothing that you can, or need, or should expect to be able, to do about any of these things.

You seem to be struggling with this, so i will try just once more to make myself clear.

When i post something on this forum, i am only ever expressing MY OWN opinion and not anyone elses.

I do not know how it has entered your brain that i would "rather very few others do". If other people like this piece, i am happy that it provides them with enjoyment. I am also happy that the records keep selling and the performances still occur. I am also happy that a small number of people would want to go to a small concert hall under a sheet music shop in London and listen to someone playing the bloody thing, if thats how they want to spend an evening.

Simple, now shut up.

Thal

[ahinton]

You seem to be struggling with this, so i will try just once more to make myself clear.

When i post something on this forum, i am only ever expressing MY OWN opinion and not anyone elses.

Well, I'm sure that we're all at last relieved to read from your own fingers that this is the case, for you have not always made it as clear as you are now doing.

I do not know how it has entered your brain that i would "rather very few others do".

Then you of all people should, for its origins are in reading your own posts.

If other people like this piece, i am happy that it provides them with enjoyment. I am also happy that the records keep selling and the performances still occur.

Compared to your previous posts about turds and the like, this is good to hear.

I am also happy that a small number of people would want to go to a small concert hall under a sheet music shop in London and listen to someone playing the bloody thing, if thats how they want to spend an evening.

Well, that's very nice of you, to be sure, although this particular circumstance as you describe it has, as far as I am aware, yet to occur. The complete public performances of OC that have taken place to date (I omit partial performances for space saving reasons) have, in chronological order, been given in the following venues:
1. what was once Glasgow's Stevenson Hall (by the composer, 1930)
2. the great hall of Utrecht's Vredenburg Muziekcentrum (by Geoffrey Douglas Madge, 1982)
3. Mandel Hall, University of Chicago (by Geoffrey Douglas Madge, 1983)
4. Beethovenhalle, Bonn (by Geoffrey Douglas Madge, 1983)
5. Redpath Hall, McGill University, Montréal (by Geoffrey Douglas Madge, 1984)
6. Queen Elizabeth Hall, London (by John Ogdon, 1988)
7. Opéra Comique, Paris (by Geoffrey Douglas Madge, 1988)
8. Skinners Hall, London (by John Ogdon, 1988)
9. Konzertsaal, Universität der Künste, Berlin (by Geoffrey Douglas Madge, 2002)
10. Purcell Room, London (by Jonathan Powell, 2003)
11. Kamermuziekzaal, Concertgebouw, Brugge (by Daan Vandewalle, 2004)
12. Merkin Hall, New York (by Jonathan Powell, 2004)
13. Almi Hall, Opera House, Helsinki (by Jonathan Powell, 2005)
14. Sheremetevsky Dvorets, St. Petersburg (by Jonathan Powell, 2005)
15. Sala de Cámara, Auditorio Nacional de Musica, Madrid (by Daan Vandewalle, 2009)

As I have already suggested, I am wholly unaware that any of these performances, or indeed any of the many others of parts of OC or broadcasts of all or part of it have taken place in, or been broadcast from, "a small concert hall under a sheet music shop in London".

Simple, now shut up.

Simple it may or may not be, but yes, it might be a good idea if you did indeed now shut up on this subject.

Best,

Alistair

[weissenberg2]

Ahinton, why do you keep arguing with him? he is just trying to antagonize you.

[ahinton]

Ahinton, why do you keep arguing with him? he is just trying to antagonize you.

I don't, really. I read the stuff that he writes and, when it comes to almost anything concerning Sorabji, it's usually very obviously biased and uninformed, so much of what I do in response is provide information which hopefully redresses balances and the rest is merely to expose the lack of balanced and considered viewpoints that Thal seems as a rule to allow himself; he doesn't "antagonise" me at all - believe me, it would take an awful lot more than Thal's offerings even to begin to achieve that!

Best,

Alistair

[weissenberg2]

I don't, really. I read the stuff that he writes and, when it comes to almost anything concerning Sorabji, it's usually very obviously biased and uninformed, so much of what I do in response is provide information which hopefully redresses balances and the rest is merely to expose the lack of balanced and considered viewpoints that Thal seems as a rule to allow himself; he doesn't "antagonise" me at all - believe me, it would take an awful lot more than Thal's offerings even to begin to achieve that!

Best,

Alistair

He is just trying to annoy you.

[gep]

It is simply a matter of personal taste. No more or no less.

Indeed it is, so it baffles me no end why you keep going on writing as if your indeed so very PERSONAL taste gives such an adamant absolute value to the piece (or any piece)! That you do not like this or any piece says only something about your taste, and nothing whatsoever about the piece. Yet you continuously, and pretty much ad absurdem et nauseam, proclaim that the fact that you do not like this music means the music is less then sh*t. As if a subjective view (personal taste) makes for an objective validation.
You don't like this music; totally fine by me and I think anyone. Now please stop yapping about it at people who do like it. You're making yourself look like a spoiled four year old brat who can't stand another kid having a lollipop you can't have. I daresay there are more people here who like Sorabji's music than there are who like your writings (barring the mental trottlebottoms).

Gep

[ahinton]

He is just trying to annoy you.

If so, he fails.

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

You're making yourself look like a spoiled four year old brat who can't stand another kid having a lollipop you can't have. I daresay there are more people here who like Sorabji's music than there are who like your writings (barring the mental trottlebottoms).

What's a trottlebottom?

Best,

Alistair

[birba]

I think he means "throttlebottom".  An incompetent nincompoop.

[gep]

I think he means "throttlebottom". 

Quite so. As in "anal-retentive". See link

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anal_retentive

[thalbergmad]

Well, I'm sure that we're all at last relieved to read from your own fingers that this is the case, for you have not always made it as clear as you are now doing.

It should be pretty obvious that when i am posting i am expressing my own opinion. I fail to see how i could be expressing that of anyone else. I take it that when you post, you are expressing your own opinion and not that person or persons unknown.

Pretty simple to grasp i would have thought, but clearly not in your case.

Now, please put a lid on it and belt up, as i intend to do.

Thal

[gep]

To listen to it was a torture that i do not wish to endure again. It does not matter who plays this, it is impossible to polish a turd.

The first sentence is a personal opinion. The second is a personal opinion presented as a general fact.

[ahinton]

The first sentence is a personal opinion. The second is a personal opinion presented as a general fact.

Precisely so.

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

Precisely so.

An undisputed FACT, unless you want to try and polish one and prove me wrong.

If you don't, I can only suggest you shut it and let this thread die.

Thal

[ahinton]

An undisputed FACT, unless you want to try and polish one and prove me wrong.

No, Thal, I neither want nor propose to do that, but then I do not need to, for the point at issue is not the question of whether or not turds are amenable to polishing but that you describe OC as an example of the unpolished variety as though this were a fact; I think that everyone else who has followed your remarks on the work will have understood that.

I can only suggest you shut it

Whilst you are at liberty to make such a suggestion, I am not at liberty to close the thread; only Nils can do that, if he is minded to.

and let this thread die.

What happens to this thread is up to anyone who wishes to contribute to it and, as I did not initiate it, I presume that the person who did would like it to be used for sensible discussion of the topic; that is what threads (apart from the kind by which you seem to be hanging on here) are for.

Best,

Alistair

[gep]

Quote from: thalbergmad on Today at 11:17:01 AM
and let this thread die.

What happens to this thread is up to anyone who wishes to contribute to it and, as I did not initiate it, I presume that the person who did would like it to be used for sensible discussion of the topic; that is what threads (apart from the kind by which you seem to be hanging on here) are for.

Indeed so. Perhaps I might suggest to Thalia (assuming the name must be, considering "female" was selected in the profile of that contrib writer) starting a thread about "Why I cannot stand the music of Sorabji" and diarrhoea everything she wishes to dump there (IF you will excuse my language!). I promise not to tread there, and she need no longer tread here.

Everybody happy!

[thalbergmad]

I am not at liberty to close the thread

Are you at liberty to stop posting in it then, so it dies a natural death, or is that beyond your capabilities?

No need to answer.

Thal

[ahinton]

Are you at liberty to stop posting in it then, so it dies a natural death, or is that beyond your capabilities?

No need to answer.

No need to, indeed, but I will nevertheless do so. Yes and no. Yes, I am at liberty to desist from further posting in it, but no, there would be no guarantee that it would die a death, natural or otherwise, just because I did so; by associative implication, I am capable of declining to post any more in it (although whether I choose to do so is up to me and not influenced by matters of capability), but I am no more capable of ensuring that the thread dies a death, natural or otherwise than I am interested in seeing that happen.

Let's hope that this clears up your concerns adequantely.

Best,

Alistair

[weissenberg2]

Where is Nils when three grown men are acting like children?

[gep]

Where is Nils when three grown men are acting like children?

I believe that two of those "grown men" (of which I am assumedly one?) are merely trying to respond to the obnoxiousness in Thal in this thread, while said Thal doens't really count as "grown man", judging from his posts.

I would very much prefer if Mr. Thal would take hisself out of this thread (he doens't like the subject, as he states agian. and again. and again, etc. ad infinitum), so that this thread could go back to what is was intended to be about, i.e. "The music of K.S. Sorabji".
People interested in the pratabillities of Thal can easily go find them all over the rest of this Forum, I'd think! The presence of the nincompoopism of Thaliams here and everywhere is such that I would indeed welcome some action thereupon by Nils, actually....

Gep

[gep]

Are you at liberty to stop posting in it then, so it dies a natural death, or is that beyond your capabilities?

No need to answer.

Thal

As said before, I would suggest you stop posting here, so that this thread can go back to the subject is was intended for, i.e. "The music of K.S. Sorabji", rather than staying what it has become, i.e. "The obnoxiousness of Thal".
I'm at a loss for finding an explanation for the curious fact that you keep on returning to and adding to (stretching to breaking point the term "adding" here...) a thread on a subject you do not care for, to tell ad infinitum how much you do not care for it. I suggest you go babble in the "how much can you bench press" or similar, so you can babble about how much dead weight you can pull yourself rather than having everybody else pull your dead weight on this thread.

You know, we have this weed in the garden; no matter what you do (cut, dig, spray, vinigarate, stamp on, kick at), it does keep coming back. And back. And back some more. ...

Awaiting your unavoidable answer.....

[ahinton]

An undisputed FACT, unless you want to try and polish one and prove me wrong.

As a brief diversion before we do return to the topic (and in the absence of any posts since "gep"'s most recent one urging just that), your remark about it being impossible to polish a turd might not necessarily have taken into account the fact that it is usually possible to polish silver-plated articles; the reason I mention this is that perhaps you may have overlooked The Silver-Plated Turd by the Lebanese writer Kahlil Gibran (1883-1931), which is found in the posthumously published volume entitled Thoughts and Meditations (chapter 7, pp. 37-41, translated from the Arabic by Anthony R Ferris; Heinemann, London, 1961, repr. 1969) - after which reference a reutrn to the topic is surely even more vital than it was beforehand...

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

As a brief diversion before we do return to the topic (and in the absence of any posts since "gep"'s most recent one urging just that), your remark about it being impossible to polish a turd might not necessarily have taken into account the fact that it is usually possible to polish silver-plated articles; the reason I mention this is that perhaps you may have overlooked The Silver-Plated Turd by the Lebanese writer Kahlil Gibran (1883-1931), which is found in the posthumously published volume entitled Thoughts and Meditations (chapter 7, pp. 37-41, translated from the Arabic by Anthony R Ferris; Heinemann, London, 1961, repr. 1969) - after which reference a reutrn to the topic is surely even more vital than it was beforehand...

Why don't you return to the topic then instead of posting this irrelevant nonsense.

You always seem very capable of suggesting others return to the topic, but incapable of actually doing it yourself.

So please give us a nice snippet of information about this "great" composer.

Thal

[ahinton]

Why don't you return to the topic then instead of posting this irrelevant nonsense.

The irrelevance is all yours, old chap; drag turds into a thread on Sorabji and you'll have to put up with what you get. The idea was, after all, yours, not mine.

You always seem very capable of suggesting others return to the topic, but incapable of actually doing it yourself.

So please give us a nice snippet of information about this "great" composer.

On the contrary, I have contributed a fair amount about Sorabji on this forum over recent times, a little of which is on this particular thread. What I do usually endeavour to do, however, is answer questions that other members may have when they post them here. Your contribution here appears to have extended little further than the remarks to which attention has already been drawn, other than by appearing to perpetuate what motivated them by means of your supererogatory addition of " " around the word great in your post.

Best,

Alistair

[pies]

hintawn, what do you think of Sorabji?

[thalbergmad]

On the contrary, I have contributed a fair amount about Sorabji on this forum over recent times, a little of which is on this particular thread.

And I am most eternally grateful, which is why i request that you forget all the recent nonsense and return to what you are undoubtedly best at.

So tell us some more about his music. Perhaps about the Symphony for piano, large orchestra, chorus and organ (1921–22) and the possibilites of a future performance?

Thal

[rob47]

hintawn

[ahinton]

And I am most eternally grateful, which is why i request that you forget all the recent nonsense and return to what you are undoubtedly best at.

So tell us some more about his music. Perhaps about the Symphony for piano, large orchestra, chorus and organ (1921–22) and the possibilites of a future performance?

I'm busy right now, so I'll have to promise to get back to you on that in due course, but of course I can "forget all the recent nonsense" - easily done!

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

And I am most eternally grateful, which is why i request that you forget all the recent nonsense and return to what you are undoubtedly best at.

So tell us some more about his music. Perhaps about the Symphony for piano, large orchestra, chorus and organ (1921–22) and the possibilites of a future performance?

Since you ask about this particular work, I should say that, as with all of Sorabji's works that have yet to be typeset, the chances of public performance are all but zero until that situation has been remedied. The work concerned is a massive one with a solo piano part of at least as much importance to the whole as that in Messiean's Turangalîla-Symphonie; the chorus is wordless throughout and, frankly, I think that the sheer density of texture that its part provides will make it rather difficult to hear what's going on in some places, so a sensitive editor will need to give due consideration to this problem. The vastly larger Jami Symphony (Sorabji's second orchestral one) would seem to stand a better chance of performance eventually, as there is already a typeset edition (running to not far short of 1,000 pages), although this edition (by David Carter - an Englishman and no relation of a certain other rather better known musician with the same surname) is in the (rather lengthy) process of being tweaked and revised towards a finished product, so there will be quite a wait yet before this is in performable condition and, even then, it will not exactly be cheap to put on.

In addition to the new edition of OC that I mentioned as being in preparation, there is another typeset one of Sorabji's Piano Sonata No. 5 - Opus Archimagicum - currently in preparation which we anticiapte may be completed and available by autumn this year; it is being prepared by Alexander Abercrombie, who has already distinguished himself by making a number of editions of the composer's work (to which i've already drawn attention on this forum).

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

Has the Concerto II been recorded yet? I ask as Hinson's Guide for Music for Piano & Orchestra (my bible) states "has to be seen and heard to be believed".

He also continues with "Combines incredible contrapuntal skill with almost unparalleled control of kaleidoscopic sound. Scoring is rich and coloful and is filled with many novel and original instrumental schemes. Combined rhythmic schemes are a real problem".

Sounds interesting to me if this description is accurate.

Thal

[thalbergmad]

the chorus is wordless throughout

I know my musical experience is tiny is this genre, but i don't think i have ever heard a wordless chorus.

Thal

[ahinton]

Has the Concerto II been recorded yet? I ask as Hinson's Guide for Music for Piano & Orchestra (my bible) states "has to be seen and heard to be believed".

He also continues with "Combines incredible contrapuntal skill with almost unparalleled control of kaleidoscopic sound. Scoring is rich and coloful and is filled with many novel and original instrumental schemes. Combined rhythmic schemes are a real problem".

Sounds interesting to me if this description is accurate.

"Concerto II" is actually Sorabji's fifth piano concerto; it came to be known for years as his "second" one simply because it was published as such. It has not yet been commerically recorded, sadly but, as you may know, it received its public première in Utrecht, Netherlands in 2003 played by Donna Amato and Netherlands Radio SO conducted by Ed Spanjaard. It is in one movement, is scored for a conventional large symphony orchestra and plays for just under half an hour. It was broadcast on Netherlands Radio shortly after that première.

So Maurice Hinson is the author of your bible, then? Goodness me - whatever would pianistimo say about that?!...

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

I know my musical experience is tiny is this genre, but i don't think i have ever heard a wordless chorus.

Well, you have now! You have presumably already heard of Rakhmaninov's Vocalise, Op. 34 no. 14? You may also have heard of those rather lesser-known works by his compatriots and near-contemporaries, the Glière concerto for soprano and orchestra and Medtner's Sonate-Vocalise and Suite Vocalise, each for soprano and piano, all of which are likewise wordless.

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

"Concerto II" is actually Sorabji's fifth piano concerto; it came to be known for years as his "second" one simply because it was published as such. It has not yet been commerically recorded, sadly but, as you may know, it received its public première in Utrecht, Netherlands in 2003 played by Donna Amato and Netherlands Radio SO conducted by Ed Spanjaard. It is in one movement, is scored for a conventional large symphony orchestra and plays for just under half an hour. It was broadcast on Netherlands Radio shortly after that première.

Thanks.

I take it Mr Hinson must have heard it then.

Thal

[ahinton]

Thanks.

I take it Mr Hinson must have heard it then.

I doubt it (he probably maede his deductions from a perusal of the published score); Mr Hinton did, though.

Best,

Alistair

[nearenough]

I've been reading throughout this Sorabji forum and it's fair to comment positively AND negatively on the sounds wrought by KSS. There is no notive here that only positive opinions can be posted.

You are correct, I think, about the 17 minute CD. I bought it probably from Amazon about 5-6 years ago paying a full CD price (some $15). I never heard of a "single" selcetion CD (or whatever terminology you used). I felt cheated.

I wondered, what is music supposed to be? Is playing the C major scale for 5 hours real music if the composer says it is music? [Yes, I've heard Terry Riley's "In C" -- once]. I can play random notes on the piano all day long. Is that music? I recall thinking OC is nothing more than texture; no melody, no notable structure, no discernible fugues -- just 5 hours of random texture. Perhaps I am missing a deep mathematical structure or a musicality hitherto not known to me. I can say I do play the piano fairly well as a rank amateur (mostly Chopin) so, as formally untrained in music theory or history, I have listened to classic (and some pop, jazz) nearly all my 71 years, I do have some reasonable listening experience. The reaction here from Alistair is quite defensive which leads me to suspect he is defending a matter which cannot stand on its own.

A good example of "selling it" is the pretense of forbidding performances of his material by KS. This smacks me as an advertising trick. The endless gathering together of his scores for publication seems also pompous grandstanding and pseudointellectual hype. The fact that this or that concerto has never been recorded is evidence that no one wants to hear them.

Chopin put an eternity of music - real music - into his preludes, items that are easily fit into one CD. EVERYING he wrote has been recorded, almost endlessly. People WANT to hear Chopin and many others. KS managed to write masses of notes that are remembered only for the hapless shriekings of his acolytes who want there to be something important about it all they just can't find.

Good luck. I am sorry so much effort went in to writing all those notes which will largely go either unheard or misunderstood forever.

[retrouvailles]

"Concerto II" is actually Sorabji's fifth piano concerto; it came to be known for years as his "second" one simply because it was published as such. It has not yet been commerically recorded, sadly but, as you may know, it received its public première in Utrecht, Netherlands in 2003 played by Donna Amato and Netherlands Radio SO conducted by Ed Spanjaard. It is in one movement, is scored for a conventional large symphony orchestra and plays for just under half an hour. It was broadcast on Netherlands Radio shortly after that première.

There used to be an except of said broadcast recording on YouTube. However, it was taken down some time ago. Luckily I saved it as an .flv file before it was removed. You can hear the excerpt in the attached file. Don't ask me where it is from. I asked the member on YouTube where he got it and he did not want to divulge said information, and he said he was taking a risk by even posting it. I just wish that there were a way for the public to easily have a copy of that recording in its entirety! Things like this (the difficulty of getting hard-to-find broadcast recordings and such) perhaps add to the obscurity of Sorabji, for many of the works that have massive rumors behind them have only had a handful of performances and recordings of them are either being hoarded by radio corporations or greedy collectors, never to see the light of day. Well, with all that in mind, enjoy the excerpt. Open it with VLC player.

https://rapidshare.com/files/255888315/Kaikhosru_Sorabji___Piano_Concerto_no._5__1920___excerpt_.flv

[thalbergmad]

KS managed to write masses of notes that are remembered only for the hapless shriekings of his acolytes who want there to be something important about it all they just can't find.

I'm keeping out of this

[ahinton]

I've been reading throughout this Sorabji forum and it's fair to comment positively AND negatively on the sounds wrought by KSS. There is no notive here that only positive opinions can be posted.

You are correct, I think, about the 17 minute CD. I bought it probably from Amazon about 5-6 years ago paying a full CD price (some $15). I never heard of a "single" selcetion CD (or whatever terminology you used). I felt cheated.

And sadly you were - as indeed were some others. AS has been pointed out here before, Altarus has issued a num ber of products which are effectively CD singles of one work each and these were supposed to be sold at reduced price, but some unscrupulous retailers ignored that stipulation.

I wondered, what is music supposed to be? Is playing the C major scale for 5 hours real music if the composer says it is music? [Yes, I've heard Terry Riley's "In C" -- once]. I can play random notes on the piano all day long. Is that music? I recall thinking OC is nothing more than texture; no melody, no notable structure, no discernible fugues -- just 5 hours of random texture. Perhaps I am missing a deep mathematical structure or a musicality hitherto not known to me.

Perhaps you are at least missing something of the latter - but no matter. If it gets to you, it fets to you; if it doesn't it doesn't.

I can say I do play the piano fairly well as a rank amateur (mostly Chopin) so, as formally untrained in music theory or history, I have listened to classic (and some pop, jazz) nearly all my 71 years, I do have some reasonable listening experience. The reaction here from Alistair is quite defensive which leads me to suspect he is defending a matter which cannot stand on its own.

Not at all. My rôle vis-à-vis Sorabji's music is not to "defend" it, for it needs no such defence. The only way that it can stand on its own is in performances that do it justice, of which there are now quite a substantial number on CD.

A good example of "selling it" is the pretense of forbidding performances of his material by KS. This smacks me as an advertising trick.

If that's what it was (which it most certainly wasn't), it surely failed dismally, did it not? The reason for the control that he sought to exert over public hearings of his work from around 1936 to 1976 has been discussed elsewhere in some detail (not least in Sorabji: A Critical Celebration, ed. Paul Rapoport [Scolar Press {now Ashgate Publishing}, Aldershot, UK; 1992, repr. 1994]), but the general thrust of it is that he wished to protect his work from wholly unrepresentative presentations. I happen to think that he let this go on for far too long and became unduly inflexible about it - and indeed persuaded him to rethink his stance, hence the performances that began in the 1970s and have continued to this day.

The endless gathering together of his scores for publication seems also pompous grandstanding and pseudointellectual hype.

I don't understand what you mean here; could you explain? A handful of his scores were published in UK between 1919 and 1931, then none for a long time afterwards; The Sorabji Archive has sourced them all and made them available to the public worldwide, following which quite a few of his scores have been edited and typeset over the past 20 years or so. To what exactly are you referring here?

The fact that this or that concerto has never been recorded is evidence that no one wants to hear them.

Really? Just stop for a moment and think of all the music that one can now get on CD that lay unperformed and unrecorded for many decades. Put simply, if people are unaware of the existence of a work, of course they won't "want to her" it! - how can they?!

Chopin put an eternity of music - real music - into his preludes, items that are easily fit into one CD. EVERYING he wrote has been recorded, almost endlessly. People WANT to hear Chopin and many others.

Of course they do - and I yield to no one in my admiration and love of Chopin's works. But Chopin was Chopin - one of hundreds of thousands of composers whose works now clamour for attention. A lot of music gets listened to only rarley simply because people have limited listening time and there is now so much more music available to listen to than was the case in Chopin's time or even 30 years ago.

KS managed to write masses of notes that are remembered only for the hapless shriekings of his acolytes who want there to be something important about it all they just can't find.

So you choose to assume, but what do you make of the motives of the performers who have presented it, without whose work you'd have nothing to say about it as you are doing here? Are they mere acolytes who seek to present hapless shriekings? (anent which I'd have thought that it's rather difficult to "shriek" at the piano, so maybe you're talking about singers such as Jane Manning, Sarah Leonard, Felicity la Fortune, Elizabeth Farnum and others who have performed his songs). What of those editors who have laboured endlessly to bring these scores into typset form so that performers can more easily prepare and present them? Would you say the same for these people. What of the musicologists who have written about him or the critics who have given his work favourable notices? Are these, too, mere "acolytes? If so, how and with what motive did they acquire that status?

Good luck. I am sorry so much effort went in to writing all those notes which will largely go either unheard or misunderstood forever.

Well, as you will note from the above (if you've bothered to read it), they haven't "gone unheard", even if much of what you write is hard to understand. Not everyone wants to listen to Bach, Beethoven and Chopin. No one seemed to want to listen to Alkan for many years. Medtner was largely ignored for far too long. So was Godowsky. Etc., etc.

And finally, if you happen for whatever reason to regard me as one such "acolyte" you will doubtless be as horrified as I was delighted to have Jonathan Powell give the première of a piano work I wrote in Sorabji's memory in a programme along with Chopin's Polonaise-Fantaisie and Beethoven's Op. 109 sonata...

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

There used to be an except of said broadcast recording on YouTube. However, it was taken down some time ago. Luckily I saved it as an .flv file before it was removed. You can hear the excerpt in the attached file. Don't ask me where it is from. I asked the member on YouTube where he got it and he did not want to divulge said information, and he said he was taking a risk by even posting it. I just wish that there were a way for the public to easily have a copy of that recording in its entirety! Things like this (the difficulty of getting hard-to-find broadcast recordings and such) perhaps add to the obscurity of Sorabji, for many of the works that have massive rumors behind them have only had a handful of performances and recordings of them are either being hoarded by radio corporations or greedy collectors, never to see the light of day. Well, with all that in mind, enjoy the excerpt. Open it with VLC player.

https://rapidshare.com/files/255888315/Kaikhosru_Sorabji___Piano_Concerto_no._5__1920___excerpt_.flv

It is indeed a pity that this concerto has not been made available on a commercial CD; the reason is not, as out previous correspondent suggest, that "no one wants to listen to it", of course, otherwise Netherlands Radio would not have paid to have all the orchestral material prepared and then paid to have Netherlands Radio SO rehearse and perform it and paid to have the concert put on in Utrecht's most important concert venue in front of some 300 people or paid to broadcast it shortly afterwards. That said, Sorabji's work is hardly obscure nowadays - check the website to see just how many CDs have been issued, most of which are still available. Yes, there's a long way to go, but...

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

I'm keeping out of this

The wisdom of old age has finally descended upon you, has it?!...

Best,

Alistair

[gep]

KS managed to write masses of notes that are remembered only for the hapless shriekings of his acolytes who want there to be something important about it all they just can't find.

That explains the rather large (and increasing) number of people that actually enjoy his work.

I said it before and will say it again, your personal taste says nothing whatsoever about the value of a piece of music. Very hard thing to understand for the arrogant...

[retrouvailles]

That said, Sorabji's work is hardly obscure nowadays - check the website to see just how many CDs have been issued, most of which are still available. Yes, there's a long way to go, but...

Well, yes, I know that. I actually have most of the available CDs of his music. I just wish other labels would take up his music. I also wish other pianists would take up his music. Jonathan Powell seems to be the only pianist nowadays who can play his music satisfactorily. I was excited for a moment about Soheil Nasseri, but once I heard his recording of Sonata No. 0, the excitement waned. I found his account of that piece rather slow and cumbersome. It seems like a piece that wanted to go more places, but the pianist just didn't let that happen. Perhaps someone else has a different opinion. Well, I digress, but part of the problem is that there is really only one label releasing Sorabji's music (Altarus) and there is really only one pianist who is recording his music (Jonathan Powell). Sure, other labels and pianists have released works (Music and Arts, Donna Amato, etc.), but there needs to be more interest from other labels and musicians, and it just seems to be lacking right now, which is a da.mn shame. I won't go into the fact that there is really only one source for his sheetmusic, also, because we all know that situation. Perhaps if all this gets somehow straightened out, there will be a resurgence of interest in his music. I don't think it's the actual music that turns people off to Sorabji, but rather the sheer unavailability of it relative to other composers (which is a da.mn shame, like I mentioned). Oh, and I almost forgot to mention that I greatly admire the efforts of Altarus, Jonathan Powell, and the Sorabji Archive, which are undoubtedly instrumental in any sort of interest in Sorabji (genuine interest, not just the sort of notoriety that seems to frequent this forum and cause these ridiculous and controversial discussions that people like Thal and others love to start, with either malicious or curious intents or otherwise).

[communist]

This may seem a little off topic but does anyone know if the Symphonic Nocturne is or will be recorded?

[gep]

to Retrouvailles: do not forget Fredrik Ullén! It's not his fault BIS is so slow in bringing CD's out! (I think BIS has the most Sorabji CD's after Altarus?). It would be nice if Donna Amato's recorded performance of Concerto II would be issued. Also, a recording of Symphony 5 would be nice!

to Communist: one can hope!

[ahinton]

Well, yes, I know that. I actually have most of the available CDs of his music. I just wish other labels would take up his music. I also wish other pianists would take up his music. Jonathan Powell seems to be the only pianist nowadays who can play his music satisfactorily. I was excited for a moment about Soheil Nasseri, but once I heard his recording of Sonata No. 0, the excitement waned. I found his account of that piece rather slow and cumbersome. It seems like a piece that wanted to go more places, but the pianist just didn't let that happen. Perhaps someone else has a different opinion. Well, I digress, but part of the problem is that there is really only one label releasing Sorabji's music (Altarus) and there is really only one pianist who is recording his music (Jonathan Powell). Sure, other labels and pianists have released works (Music and Arts, Donna Amato, etc.), but there needs to be more interest from other labels and musicians, and it just seems to be lacking right now, which is a da.mn shame. I won't go into the fact that there is really only one source for his sheetmusic, also, because we all know that situation. Perhaps if all this gets somehow straightened out, there will be a resurgence of interest in his music. I don't think it's the actual music that turns people off to Sorabji, but rather the sheer unavailability of it relative to other composers (which is a da.mn shame, like I mentioned). Oh, and I almost forgot to mention that I greatly admire the efforts of Altarus, Jonathan Powell, and the Sorabji Archive, which are undoubtedly instrumental in any sort of interest in Sorabji (genuine interest, not just the sort of notoriety that seems to frequent this forum and cause these ridiculous and controversial discussions that people like Thal and others love to start, with either malicious or curious intents or otherwise).

It would indeed be good if more labels and artists take up this repertoire. BIS has done and is doing its bit, with two Chopin pastiches on a CD by Fredrik Ullén, the Chicago recording of Geoffrey Douglas Madge playing OC, a Habermann CD and the first of six CDs of Transcendental Studies played by Ullén (another excellent artist, it must be said). Even the Amato recordings you mention are on Altarus, like so much other recorded Sorabji. At least with more and more editions being created, there is less and less excuse for artists not taking up this repertoire.

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

This may seem a little off topic but does anyone know if the Symphonic Nocturne is or will be recorded?

It's not at all off topic, I do know and, sadly, there are no plans for this at present, although this score is one whose edition is not yet complete.

Best,

Alistair

[retrouvailles]

to Retrouvailles: do not forget Fredrik Ullén! It's not his fault BIS is so slow in bringing CD's out! (I think BIS has the most Sorabji CD's after Altarus?).

Yeah, I almost forgot about him. I am a great fan of his work and have most of his CDs. I will buy his next volume of the TE's when they come out.