'Pathetique' sonata

[worov]

Hi everybody !

I'm currently working on the 'Pathetique' sonata by Beethoven. Very beautiful piece. I like it a lot.

In the first movement, in the bars 174, 182, 184 and 186, the right hand plays a C-E flat chord and trills with E flat and F. So I have to play the chord with 1 and 3 and to trill with 3 and 4, or 3 or 5, which is very hard for me. I think 3 and 5 would be more comfortable. To those who have played this piece, what fingering do you use ?

I need to develop finger independance.

How to develop finger independance ? I have worked some Bach two-part inventions : no. 1, 2,3, 4, 6, 8, 9, 10, 13, and 14. But they don't seem to be very useful for this particular passage.

Any tips ?

[scottmcc]

I'm still working on the exposition, you're way ahead of me. 

but...I'd use 1-3 and then trill with 3-4, followed by 2 3 for the grace notes.  3-5 trills are very hard for me.

liszt technical exercises (especially the first 20-ish) are ideal for this kind of thing.  they're pretty hard though!

[communist]

I am not familiar with the piece but would it work if you did the C-Eb with 1-2 and did the till 2-3?

[scottmcc]

no, because the trill ends with grace note d, eb, and then b-d, so you need to have 2 available to hit the d.  In the time between my post above and now I tried it, and I'm better at the fingering I listed above (1-3, trill 3-4, then 2,3, 1-2) than trying to trill 3-5.  but the edition I have (schenker) lists 3-5 for the trill.

[worov]

Hi to both of you !

no, because the trill ends with grace note d, eb, and then b-d, so you need to have 2 available to hit the d.  In the time between my post above and now I tried it, and I'm better at the fingering I listed above (1-3, trill 3-4, then 2,3, 1-2) than trying to trill 3-5.  but the edition I have (schenker) lists 3-5 for the trill.

Indeed, there is the appogiatura which prevents us to trill with 2 and 3 (which, as you say, would be much more easy).

I don't have the Schenker edition. Thanks for their fingering. I own Henle edition by Bertha Antonia Wallner and fingering by Conrad Hansen, edited in 1975.

Henle gives no fingering for the trill, suggests to play the D appogiatura with 2 and the chord D-B with 1-2. That is the same fingering you advised.

About those Liszt exercises, thank you for the recommendation, but I'm afraid they are very advanced, too hard for me. I don't know which grade I am (I have no teacher). This sonata is the hardest piece in my repertoire. It is a big challenge for me. Besides the inventions I have listed, I have played :

Bach WTC Book 1 : Prelude in C major and C minor (the fugues are still too hard for me !)
Beethoven Opus 49 (both)
Beethoven's Moonlight Sonata (first movement only)
Beethoven's Pathetique : the others movements
Chopin Preludes Opus 28 no. 4, 7 and 20
Chopin Waltz no. 6 Opus 64 no 1
Mozart Sonata no 5 KV 283 (first and second movement)
Mozart Sonata no 16 KV 545 (first and second movement)
Schubert Moments musicaux no. 1 and 3, Opus 94

I have never played a Liszt piece and I think I'm not ready for them yet. I should find something easier. And I think that a Chopin Etude might be too hard also. What would you suggest to gain finger independance ?

[scottmcc]

no no no!  not the liszt etudes, the liszt technical exercises!

these ones:  https://www.sheetmusicplus.com/store/smp_detail.html?item=3502970&cart=34505839742391956&cm_re=289.1.4-_-Results+Item-_-Title

you can take them as slowly as you want, and skip around as needed. 

they will definitely help for the issue you are describing.

[dapianoman32]

I have played the first movement of this sonata before and i used the fingering 3 and 5 but that is because i have large hands...this was easier for me...if u want more technical work i would actually recommend working on some of the chopin etudes mayb even the revolutionary

p.s. i love the pathetique

[worov]

I have played the first movement of this sonata before and i used the fingering 3 and 5 but that is because i have large hands...this was easier for me...if u want more technical work i would actually recommend working on some of the chopin etudes mayb even the revolutionary

Hi, dapianoman32 ! A Chopin Etude ? Don't you think they are bit too advanced for me ? They all are much harder than the pieces I have played. I'm skeptical, I doubt of my skills (I know I should not). Of course, I'm sure there might some pieces in the two sets (Opus 10 and 25) which deal with finger independance.

If I should play an Etude, do you think the Revolutionnary would fit my purpose ? To my knowledge, this piece is especially about the left hand (My problem is about the right hand, remember ?).

Have you played some Chopin Etudes ? If so, which one ? I know that the 'Trois Nouvelles Etudes' (the ones without Opus number) are among the most accessible. Opus 10 no 3 also is generally viewed as one of the easiest. I'm not sure if those would resolve the problem I'm encountering.

scottmcc, thank you for the link. I didn't know about those exercises. I'll have a look at these.

[dapianoman32]

to reply to tht i played a chopin etude the year that i worked on the pathetique and it was op 10 no 3 which is true an easier piece...the next year i learned the revolutionary which focuses on the left had but just helps on technique in general...i defintely think that if you are working on the first pathetique mvt these songs are not out of reach.

however if these are not quite the pieces u were lookin for then i still think the bach wtc books are really good for technique...the prelude and fugue i am working on now (wtc book 1 no. 6) is quite the technical group of two pieces...the fugue focuses on trills in both hands...many of the pieces in the wtc books involve trills and can help u improve your technique in them