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Help~~Beethoven op.57 "Appasionata" (Read 2544 times)

Offline twiltot

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Help~~Beethoven op.57 "Appasionata"
« on: June 20, 2009, 08:16:22 PM »
I have a question about "Appasionata" finger numberings... when in the beginning it comes

c-f-a flat-c-d flat-c-b flat-a flat-b flat-a flat-g-f-g-a flat- f           

can anybody suggest some finger numberings?

piano sheet music of Sonata 23 (Appassionata)


Offline quantum

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Re: Help~~Beethoven op.57 "Appasionata"
«Reply #1 on: June 20, 2009, 08:42:45 PM »
RH 3rd movement I presume?

My fingering:
123 1313 2321 2342

I use subtle amounts of pedal to preserve legato between the 3 - 1 (Ab - C) cross. 


This results in better legato but I find it too twisty (my teacher liked it though):
123 5432 1213 2342





Made a Liszt. Need new Handel's for Soler panel & Alkan foil. Will Faure Stein on the way to pick up Mendels' sohn. Josquin get Wolfgangs Schu with Clara. Gone Chopin, I'll be Bach

Offline twiltot

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Re: Help~~Beethoven op.57 "Appasionata"
«Reply #2 on: June 20, 2009, 09:01:36 PM »
well thanks very very much, i'll try it now, any suggestions for when it comes right after that, d flat, g flat, b flat....... my teacher says use 123 454 323 212 342 but...

Offline quantum

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Re: Help~~Beethoven op.57 "Appasionata"
«Reply #3 on: June 21, 2009, 03:50:39 AM »
well thanks very very much, i'll try it now, any suggestions for when it comes right after that, d flat, g flat, b flat....... my teacher says use 123 454 323 212 342 but...


What I use:
123 1432 1432 1432 1231 2341 2342 1231 2

Yes that is a 3 - 1 crossing on black keys. 

There are a lot of these tricky fingering spots in the 3rd movement.  I prefer to go with logical repeatable patterns rather than trying to make your hand fit the keys.  It results in more solid fingering even though you may be putting your hand in what may at first seem like unusual positions. 
Made a Liszt. Need new Handel's for Soler panel & Alkan foil. Will Faure Stein on the way to pick up Mendels' sohn. Josquin get Wolfgangs Schu with Clara. Gone Chopin, I'll be Bach

Offline claude_debussy

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Re: Help~~Beethoven op.57 "Appasionata"
«Reply #4 on: June 23, 2009, 09:57:01 AM »
Sorry - all suggestions above will make the figure nearly impossible to play.

Correct execution: 123 5321 2432 1232

On the black keys: 123 4543 2432 1432 1 etc.


Take it from Claude -

peace, CD


PS - don't miss Richter's shattering performance of this movement 


Offline quantum

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Re: Help~~Beethoven op.57 "Appasionata"
«Reply #5 on: June 23, 2009, 07:40:02 PM »
Sorry - all suggestions above will make the figure nearly impossible to play.

Depends on your physique.  What works for one person may not work for another.  

There is no one correct fingering, but rather a fingering that fits a performer correctly. 
Made a Liszt. Need new Handel's for Soler panel & Alkan foil. Will Faure Stein on the way to pick up Mendels' sohn. Josquin get Wolfgangs Schu with Clara. Gone Chopin, I'll be Bach

Offline twiltot

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Re: Help~~Beethoven op.57 "Appasionata"
«Reply #6 on: June 24, 2009, 02:58:49 PM »
Depends on your physique.  What works for one person may not work for another.  

There is no one correct fingering, but rather a fingering that fits a performer correctly. 

yes... I'm just asking how you guys play it...claude_debussy's fingers may be right but they're actually not that comfortable for me...

Offline claude_debussy

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Re: Help~~Beethoven op.57 "Appasionata"
«Reply #7 on: June 24, 2009, 06:37:02 PM »
I have used the fingerings suggested to perform and record this piece, so I know they work under battlefield conditions, at tempo.  However, like everything else, they must be practiced, carefully, hands separate. 

Keep your fingers close to, or on, the keys as you work with different articulations and rhythms.  Mastering this figure pays off handsomely - it recurs many times, and must be swift, powerful and secure.

Have a look at my Chopin op. 10 #1 suggestions on this forum for a more complete discussion of how to practice technically challenging works like this.

Good luck! 

Peace, Claude


Offline claude_debussy

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Re: Help~~Beethoven op.57 "Appasionata"
«Reply #8 on: June 24, 2009, 06:39:36 PM »
Small correction - my more complete discussion of practicing can be found under "Practical Chopin Tips" on this forum, discussing Chopin Etude op. 10, #5. 

Peace, CD

Offline quantum

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Re: Help~~Beethoven op.57 "Appasionata"
«Reply #9 on: June 24, 2009, 06:54:18 PM »
I have used the fingerings suggested to perform and record this piece, so I know they work under battlefield conditions, at tempo.  However, like everything else, they must be practiced, carefully, hands separate.  

That is they work for you.  They may not work for other people with different physical dimensions.  Practice techniques can only be applied to a certain point, at which a performer must negotiate the peculiarities of his or her body.  


I too have recorded and played this piece in recital many times, and can tell you the fingerings I chose to use work well for me.  They may work well for others too, and yet again not so well for some.  
Made a Liszt. Need new Handel's for Soler panel & Alkan foil. Will Faure Stein on the way to pick up Mendels' sohn. Josquin get Wolfgangs Schu with Clara. Gone Chopin, I'll be Bach

Offline lohshuhan

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Re: Help~~Beethoven op.57 "Appasionata"
«Reply #10 on: July 25, 2009, 10:14:58 AM »
uhm..  you might wanna check out Donald Francis Tovey's edition to the beethoven sonatas. 

His fingering is unorthordox, but it certainly works. 

i can't remember the exact fingering.. 

Offline maxy

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Re: Help~~Beethoven op.57 "Appasionata"
«Reply #11 on: July 26, 2009, 07:22:03 PM »
If you want to make your life easier:

1-2-4-1-4-3-2-1-4-3-2-1-2-3-1

Works pretty much on all transpositions.

Yes it was tested on the "battlefield" and it works.

Offline mikey6

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Re: Help~~Beethoven op.57 "Appasionata"
«Reply #12 on: July 27, 2009, 01:04:17 AM »
I use
1235432143214321231

There's no twisting of the arm, it pretty much stays in one position.  4 crossing over 5 is not difficult.  Fingering is personal so whatever works for you.
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Offline lohshuhan

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Re: Help~~Beethoven op.57 "Appasionata"
«Reply #13 on: July 28, 2009, 12:21:34 PM »
I use
1235432143214321231

There's no twisting of the arm, it pretty much stays in one position.  4 crossing over 5 is not difficult.  Fingering is personal so whatever works for you.

i like this fingering.  i think its somewhat similar to toveys.  the most unique is the 12354 in the beginning of each passage... 

Offline von

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Re: Help~~Beethoven op.57 "Appasionata"
«Reply #14 on: December 10, 2009, 10:59:51 PM »
No one has mentioned Bülow's innovative fingering here? He offers this as a suggestion:
1-2-4-3...
and while it appears weird you only have to try it on the piano to see why it works so well. The problem with figures that require the pinkie is that they break down in the coda. It is impossible to play the final measures with enough force while still maintaining phrasal integrity if you're crossing your ring over the pinkie, or playing the highest notes of that run with the weak fingers (this includes 1-2-3-4-5..., 1-2-3-4-3...). Relying on your thumb throughout puts an emphasis on the downbeat notes (1-2-3-1...) when it is not supposed to be accented. Although there is a marked accent on that fourth note in some of the figures, I find that the third finger, coming from the top and using the must stronger upper arm muscle, can be even stronger than the thumb, crossing over awkwardly from the bottom and requiring some strange wrist tension.

While the relatively easy way out (1-2-3-4-5-4-3...) triumphs most in terms of legato, you should be able to make this jump (1-2-4-5...) without breaking the flow, otherwise you should work on legato in general.

Offline jehangircama

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Re: Help~~Beethoven op.57 "Appasionata"
«Reply #15 on: December 23, 2009, 06:21:46 AM »
well thanks very very much, i'll try it now, any suggestions for when it comes right after that, d flat, g flat, b flat....... my teacher says use 123 454 323 212 342 but...


your teacher's fingering is the one i've used for this... worked for me.
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