Etude no. 1 from Opus 10 - Chopin

[pianowolfi]

Sounds like another Piano World inside discussion that has branched out onto here. 

[keyboardclass]

Agree 100% stephenv.  And very clearly put as well.

[pianisten1989]

Hey, I think it's way more awesome to play the octave, then switch hands in the op 10 no 1. It's not what chopin wrote or intended, but lets do that anyway. And I don't really like the thirds in the 4th ballade, so I only play one voice... Seems reasonable, eh?

He obviously wrote legato. Why the * would you think it's a good idea to play it non-legato?

the 4th in op 10/4 is also rather lame, I think I play them with the left hand. And the middle voice in op 10/2 is also lame, so I probably just.. well, don't play them...

[keyboardclass]

Chopin made it quite clear it was the timing of arpeggios not their joining that was most important.  '...he preferred that the notes should at first be disconnected, rather than that the hand should alter its normal position.'  Eigeldinger pg 37   

[nyiregyhazi]

Chopin made it quite clear it was the timing of arpeggios not their joining that was most important.  '...he preferred that the notes should at first be disconnected, rather than that the hand should alter its normal position.'  Eigeldinger pg 37  

"at first" sounds like an extremely important qualifier to me. I'd be interested to know if there was much more to that the quote that you've selectively failed to include? Also, it does not refer to this Etude, does it? You're just spin-doctoring. Chopin's instruction of legato, however, does refer specifically to this etude.


Either way, there's no sense in ducking out of such a simple interval as a fifth in both all practise and in performance. I'm all for a wealth of differing practice methods, non-legato included- provided that it's part of a balanced whole. It's too slow to throw the whole arm across without need. Try playing the whole Etude in a closed 5 finger position and see how fast it goes. The less you hop, the faster you can go.

The fact that an outstretched position that feels strenuous is a bad thing does not make for a valid argument that the hand should stay closed up.

[keyboardclass]

Chopin's instruction of legato, however, does refer specifically to this etude.

...as does pedal.  From your reasoning you'd have to ask why he'd put both in. 

[nyiregyhazi]

...as does pedal.  From your reasoning you'd have to ask why he'd put both in.  

I do. Because he explicitly wanted to request both, would be the natural assumption. If pedal were enough, why write "legato" too? Your point doesn't even begin to work. It runs totally in the face of any non-legato argument. It's a legato etude. Personally, I do actually rather like the more leggiero touch and less pedal for some bars in the middle section. However, there's a major difference between the semi-legato of a clean leggiero and complete hops/playing detached. There's also a difference between understanding the nature of one's personal taste and attributing something to the compoiser that he explicity requested the opposite of.

[pianowolfi]

Well I admit that I am really "struggling" with this etude, but so far I have come to the conclusion that the legato advice given by Chopin is one of the keys to successfully learning it. And I mean finger legato first of all. Btw the same goes for op. 10,2.

[pianisten1989]

it would sound like a big fart if you did all the legato with the pedal. And since he wrote legato, that's probably not the sound he was after...

[pianowolfi]

it would sound like a big fart ....

Yes, right! And after all, as you say, this might not actually have been Chopin's intention as he might have saved this effect for a later etude, which is sometimes being referred to as da cold f*** on a certain other forum...

[keyboardclass]

it would sound like a big fart if you did all the legato with the pedal. And since he wrote legato, that's probably not the sound he was after...

Well, he did indicate pedal throughout - you must have rather sensitive ears (or nose?).

[pianowolfi]

Well, he did indicate pedal throughout - you must have rather sensitive ears (or nose?).

But where does he indicate to do the legato only with the pedal? Perhaps you have access to a secret Urtext that can shed light on this burning question

[keyboardclass]

But where does he indicate to do the legato only with the pedal? Perhaps you have access to a secret Urtext that can shed light on this burning question

And where does he indicate otherwise?  By legato Chopin is not stipulating a technique, he's stipulating a sonority.  The only evidence technique wise is the Eigeldinger quote I posted above.

[pianowolfi]

And where does he indicate otherwise?  By legato Chopin is not stipulating a technique, he's stipulating a sonority.  The only evidence technique wise is the Eigeldinger quote I posted above.

Well I haven't read Eigeldinger's book yet, but in your quote above he says "at first"...so that's just a practice phase I suppose.

[keyboardclass]

Well I haven't read Eigeldinger's book yet, but in your quote above he says "at first"...so that's just a practice phase I suppose.

So, the OP isn't practicing?

[nyiregyhazi]

And where does he indicate otherwise?  By legato Chopin is not stipulating a technique, he's stipulating a sonority.  The only evidence technique wise is the Eigeldinger quote I posted above.

That's not the only evidence. Neither is it relevant evidence at all- considering it's not in reference to the Etude. Evidence which does relate is the marking of "legato"- in the actual study. You're not counting that as evidence?

If your speculative interpretation held any water, why state BOTH that and the pedal mark? If non-legato sounds okay, there's no need to request it beyond a pedal mark, surely? You really didn't think that through before, did you? Also, please provide the full quote. I'd like to see it in context- not a single out of context sentence used for spin-doctoring. I believe it refers to passing of the thumb- which does not even occur in the Etude.

[pianowolfi]

So, the OP isn't practicing?

Why would anybody draw such a conclusion? The OP wrote

To play this piece well the wrist should be flexible enough to maneuver wide spans in a sempre legato manner. 

nuff said 

[pianisten1989]

 I have a book, full of letters from students of Chopin.

The book doesn't specificly say anything about the op 10/1. However, he said, several time, to his students not to play like a pigeon hunt (play without legato). It also says that he always played with the most beautiful legato.

Ah, I finally found the part about pedaling (I though they didn't even put it on the book!!):
So, here you go!
"Use the pedal with the greatest economy"
He never told his pupils to use pedal, since he didn't want them to overuse it.
"many passages are best simply without use of either pedal"

There is also a note that he sometimes used pedal to keep harmonies. But the harmony will gain too many over tones (is that what you call them in english?) if you keep full pedal all the way from bottom to top.

[keyboardclass]

Ah, I finally found the part about pedaling (I though they didn't even put it on the book!!):
So, here you go!
"Use the pedal with the greatest economy"
He never told his pupils to use pedal, since he didn't want them to overuse it.
"many passages are best simply without use of either pedal"

As I said earlier - pedal is marked throughout

That's not the only evidence. Neither is it relevant evidence at all- considering it's not in reference to the Etude. Evidence which does relate is the marking of "legato"- in the actual study. You're not counting that as evidence?

As I said above, the mark 'legato' refers to the sonority not the technique.

[keyboardclass]

oops

[nyiregyhazi]

As I said earlier - pedal is marked throughoutAs I said above, the mark 'legato' refers to the sonority not the technique.

Indeed- bringing into question why there would be any reason to mark legato, were it not meant literally. You have not even provided any theory as to why he should need to mark legato AND pedal- unless he meant both literally. What do you feel that the legato mark adds, that is not already present from the pedal he gives? Stop repeating yourself and provide your reasoning.

I read your claim that legato refers to sonority. What I did not read was a single piece of evidence to support such staggeringly extreme conjecture stated as if it were fact.

Also, I read the origin of that quote. The emphasis should indeed be on "at first"- as it refers to preparatory exercises played staccato. Why did you present that quote outside of the relevant context?

[keyboardclass]

What do you feel that the legato mark adds, that is not already present from the pedal he gives? Stop repeating yourself and provide your reasoning.

There is no way you can argue that 'legato' is a technical instruction any more than you could cantabile.  Pedal indicates how you get that sonority and yes, he could have left the word out but then he wouldn't be explicitly indicating the sonority he wished.  There's nothing to argue here.

I read your claim that legato refers to sonority. What I did not read was a single piece of evidence to support such staggeringly extreme conjecture stated as if it were fact.

Composers write sonorities not techniques.  Performers come up with those.

[pianisten1989]

It's a freaking etude! No, I think he wrote them because it's a pretty neat song.

[pianisten1989]

There is no way you can argue that 'legato' is a technical instruction any more than you could cantabile.  Pedal indicates how you get that sonority and yes, he could have left the word out but then he wouldn't be explicitly indicating the sonority he wished.  There's nothing to argue here.Composers write sonorities not techniques.  Performers come up with those.

And if you wrote what I said: USE THE PEDAL IN AN ECONOMICAL WAY.
You're probably to lame to know, but pedal doesn't have to be full all the time. You could use 1/4 or 1/2 pedal as well, which is far more economic...

But hey, why argue? You've shown all of us what a great pianist you are, so, frankly, I don't really care what you think... (yeah, I went there!)

[keyboardclass]

It's a freaking etude! No, I think he wrote them because it's a pretty neat song.

It's a freaking etude that no composer would care how its effect is acheived.

[pianowolfi]

It's a freaking etude! No, I think he wrote them because it's a pretty neat song.

Song???

Banned!! 

 

[nyiregyhazi]

There is no way you can argue that 'legato' is a technical instruction any more than you could cantabile.  Pedal indicates how you get that sonority and yes, he could have left the word out but then he wouldn't be explicitly indicating the sonority he wished.  There's nothing to argue here.Composers write sonorities not techniques.  Performers come up with those.

And the evidence he didn't want legato is what? A quote that you casually took out of context, like a trial lawyer who grabs at anything to "prove" a predetermined outcome? Your evidence (which you failed to point out as being a quote about the value of practising ANYTHING staccato before doing legato) is enough to prove that the instruction of "legato" should be discounted?

[keyboardclass]

And if you wrote what I said: USE THE PEDAL IN AN ECONOMICAL WAY.
You're probably to lame to know, but pedal doesn't have to be full all the time. You could use 1/4 or 1/2 pedal as well, which is far more economic...

I don't need lessons in Chopin pedaling - I suggest you study his first editions and manuscripts.  I have.

[keyboardclass]

And the evidence he didn't want legato is what?

And the evidence he didn't want an egg for breakfast is what?

[nyiregyhazi]

And the evidence he didn't want an egg for breakfast is what?

When you wish to discount something that clearly points towards something (eg. a marking of legato pointing towards legato), you need to do so with evidence. Otherwise you have no argument to speak of at all. When there is no evidence to start with (eg. an  egg for breakfast) no contrary evidence is required.

I'm not wasting any more time on your trolling. You have no interest in getting to the heart of the subject, only in argument.

[pianisten1989]

Yeah, or you could study what his pupils wrote about his playing - finger legato and very little pedal. Since there isn't any way to mark 1/2 pedal, I assume Chopin didn't mark 1/2... Geez, everything isn't written in the score.

Whatever, if you want to play Chopin etudes with full pedal and non-legato, that's up to you.

[keyboardclass]

When you wish to discount something that clearly points towards something (eg. a marking of legato pointing towards legato),

There are many ways of skinning a cat.  There is no evidence to support Chopin wanted legato acheived by joining the fingers when the pedal does it for you (as he well knew).

[keyboardclass]

full pedal and non-legato,

!??

[nyiregyhazi]

There are many ways of skinning a cat.  There is no evidence to support Chopin wanted legato acheived by joining the fingers when the pedal does it for you (as he well knew).

Other than the instruction "legato". Repeating unsubstantiated conjecture that (in your unsubstantiated opinion) he meant the opposite of what he asked for, does not make it so. It shows that you are an ignoramus without the slightest grasp of how to further a discussion or put forth a worthy case for anybody to consider. How about some evidence?

Are you also suggesting that the many staccato dots Chopin wrote within pedal markings are to be discounted? Chopin went to all that trouble, when he actually felt articulation to be irrelevant when the pedal is down?

[keyboardclass]

Other than the instruction "legato". Repeating unsubstantiated conjecture that (in your unsubstantiated opinion) he meant the opposite of what he asked for,

Of course he didn't!  He wanted legato.  But legato is not neccessarily a technique, it's primarily a sonority.

[nyiregyhazi]

Of course he didn't!  He wanted legato.  But legato is not neccessarily a technique, it's primarily a sonority.

You didn't deal with my point. Why the staccato dots in pedal marks elsewhere? Does that suggest a composer who felt articulation to be no issue with a depressed pedal?

[keyboardclass]

You didn't deal with my point.

I'm not going to get drawn into trashing this thread  - I know you're all too happy to.  I've made my point.

[nyiregyhazi]

I'm not going to get drawn into trashing this thread  - I know you're all too happy to.  I've made my point.

You have repeated a piece of unsubstantiated conjecture without providing any foundation for it. You also failed to further the discussion- due to simply trying to ignore the countless issues that serve to refute that piece of conjecture. If you don't want to trash threads then refraining from endlessly repeating conjecture as if it were fact would be a start- especially when points are raised that counter it. Discussion occurs when people respond to points from the other party- not when they ignore inconvenient issues and simply repeat an unevidenced assertion.

Responding to significant points with a follow-up is one of the sole things that can actually serve to make discussion productive- not something that trashes it.

[pianisten1989]

I'm not going to get drawn into trashing this thread  - I know you're all too happy to.  I've made my point.

No, you haven't.
However, I just noticed that the guy you're quoting is the "author" of my book "Chopin - Pianist and teacher -as seen by his students". Even though he probably knows a thing or two about Chopin, you can't quote him as an absolute source. He only knows what he has read in letters from Chopin's pupils. And since my book is exactly that (letters from Chopin's pupils), I though it should contain at least one of the things you've said. But it doesn't...

Anyhow, both instrument and technique has changed a lot since the beginning of the 1800. In one letter, Chopin says that you should keep your elbows rather tight to your body. Though, if you watch any major international competition, you'll notice that not one of the best pianists keep their elbows tight to their body. And if Chopin's technique was the final and optimal one, it wouldn't have been changed. It's probably the same with the instruments. Therefore, you can't really say "Chopin wrote pedal, therefore it should be full pedal all the way through", cause that's not how our instruments work.