Who are some Romantic composers you can't stand?

[retrouvailles]

Which Schumann Piano Concerto, Clara or Robert's?

If you ask me, Robert's is just bad, whereas Clara's is atrocious.

[thalbergmad]

Which Schumann Piano Concerto, Clara or Robert's?

I do not even speak of Clara as her concerto is barely music.

I honestly feel that Schumann lovers on this forum need to get out a little and start to explore.

Thal

[m]

I do not even speak of Clara as her concerto is barely music.

I honestly feel that Schumann lovers on this forum need to get out a little and start to explore.

Thal

Well yes, that's exactly the route I've chosen. My next recital will explore some Schumann:

Arabesque Op.18
Abbeg Variations Op.1
Toccata Op.7
Selected Fantasiestücke Op.12

Nachtstücke Op. 23
Symphonic Etudes Op.13

Best, M

[ahinton]

I do not even speak of Clara as her concerto is barely music.

I honestly feel that Schumann lovers on this forum need to get out a little and start to explore.

Your suggestion here undermines itself by evidently failing (or displaying unwillingness) to recognse that "Schumann lovers on this forum" admire the music of many other composers as well, so their need to do what you urge is simply an irrelevance. I agree that Schumann's piano concerto and symphonies are not very strong works at all (especially the concerto, which is largely tiresome, I find, most especially its nauseatingly repetititititive finale), but there is far more to Schumann than that. If the Études Symphoniques, Toccata, Piano Quintet, certain songs and some of the piano miniatures that to some extent pave the way for those of Medtner don't get to you, then so be it, but that does not make them "inferior" works...

Best,

Alistair

[antichrist]

Robert's

[thalbergmad]

Your suggestion here undermines itself by evidently failing (or displaying unwillingness) to recognse that "Schumann lovers on this forum" admire the music of many other composers as well, so their need to do what you urge is simply an irrelevance.

I do recognse this, but the composers i mentioned are resonably obscure and many here might not be aware of some of Schumann's contemporaries.

I do not recognse any irrelevance.

Thal

[thalbergmad]

Well yes, that's exactly the route I've chosen. My next recital will explore some Schumann:

Arabesque Op.18
Abbeg Variations Op.1
Toccata Op.7
Selected Fantasiestücke Op.12

Nachtstücke Op. 23
Symphonic Etudes Op.13

Best, M

Excellent, I doubt if any of those pieces have been played in concert for a hundred years.

Thal

[ahinton]

I do recognse this, but the composers i mentioned are resonably obscure and many here might not be aware of some of Schumann's contemporaries.

Whilst the fact that some of Schumann's lesser-known contemporaries might deserve more exposure than they receive (although some of them are certainly receiving more attention nowadays than was once the case) is undeniable, that fact does not and cannot of itself be taken as an excuse to pour scorn on Schumann's own works, particularly when that is done without even any supportive opinion detail, let alone critical judgement detail.

I do not recognse any irrelevance.

I don't recognise "recognse" either (and your use of it twice does not appear to help), but I hope that you might now at least "recognise" the irrelevance that I mentioned in the light of my remark above.

Best,

Alistair

[gep]

Whilst the fact that some of Schumann's lesser-known contemporaries might deserve more exposure than they receive (although some of them are certainly receiving more attention nowadays than was once the case) is undeniable, that fact does not and cannot of itself be taken as an excuse to pour scorn on Schumann's own works, particularly when that is done without even any supportive opinion detail, let alone critical judgement detail.

Best,

Alistair

While I understand and acknowledge Schumann's importance withing the history and development of music, I must also admit not having a great liking for his music. Same goes for quite a few composers of the same Romantic Era. Matter of taste, I guess. I'm just not so very Salonfähig....

[m19834]

Well yes, that's exactly the route I've chosen. My next recital will explore some Schumann:

Arabesque Op.18
Abbeg Variations Op.1
Toccata Op.7
Selected Fantasiestücke Op.12

Nachtstücke Op. 23
Symphonic Etudes Op.13

Best, M

[stevebob]

I wonder if a composer would need to have a reputation arguably belied by the quality of his or her music, or at least be relatively well-known, even to warrant disdain.  For example, the Henselt Library is chock full of also-ran nineteenth century composers who are probably too obscure to stir up most people's scorn.

I've never equated commercial success or popularity with excellence, but I'm really having trouble thinking of anybody who achieved a degree of enduring fame whose music I "can't stand"—or about whom I'd make such a sweeping statement—from any period.

My knowledge and experience don't extend much beyond piano music, though, so there are a number of composers whose output for piano was so negligible that I don't have an informed opinion about their merit.  (Bruckner, Mahler, Sibelius, Spohr and Wagner are some who come to mind.)

I'm surprised to see derision expressed for Schumann (i.e., Robert ).  I love his piano music and consider him one of the most important composers for piano, though I'm unfamiliar with most everything else he wrote.  I'm not sure which part of his oeuvre his detractors find so unworthy.

[thalbergmad]

when that is done without even any supportive opinion detail, let alone critical judgement detail.

I do not care for the compositions that i have heard. That is all I have to offer.

I know from some of your posts that you prefer 800 pages of detailed explanation, but that (thankfully) is not my style.

Thal

[thalbergmad]

Matter of taste, I guess. I'm just not so very Salonfähig....

Indeed, that is all that it is and i must admit that far from all of Salon music appeals to me. I do however have a liking for Leopold De Meyer whose compositions can be immense fun.

I would apprecriate a 100,000 word essay on why you are not very "Salonfahig".

On my desk by Friday morning please.

Thal

[gep]

Indeed, that is all that it is and i must admit that far from all of Salon music appeals to me. I do however have a liking for Leopold De Meyer whose compositions can be immense fun.

I would apprecriate a 100,000 word essay on why you are not very "Salonfahig".

On my desk by Friday morning please.

Thal

Well…
I cannot extend my pinkie while drinking tea.
I am incapable of chattering mindlessly away while pretending to expound gospel.
I do not like petite fours (or how that is spelled), but like to see food on my plate.
Cannot pronounce “fwahfwah” or similar expressions.
Am incapable of looking down on people taller than me, especially not with my teeth and/or nostrils.
Do not drive a car worth more than $400,000, nor care to do so.
Earn a wage with actual work, not an insanely big bonus with bogus.
Do not equate wealth with human value.
Do not have an ego the size of a country, unless it’s a small country.
Do not have a Salon.
Do not know how to "fäh".
And so on, and so forth…

Do a Vexations with the above until you reach 100,000 words.
Print on Friday, and place on your desk.


Good enough for ya buddie?

gep

[weissenberg2]

If you ask me, Robert's is just bad,

How so?

Selected Fantasiestücke Op.12

Why just selections?

[ahinton]

I do not care for the compositions that i have heard. That is all I have to offer.

I know from some of your posts that you prefer 800 pages of detailed explanation, but that (thankfully) is not my style.

Then you would appear to know little. One page would do nicely, thanks.

Best,

Alistair

[argerichfan]

I wonder if a composer would need to have a reputation arguably belied by the quality of his or her music, or at least be relatively well-known, even to warrant disdain.

Welcome, stevebob.  I don't post here very frequently -more active on the 'other' forum (4300 posts and counting)- but I'll be watching for your contributions.  Hope all is well.  

If I don't agree with Thal on Schumann, I always enjoy his posts and he's a good chap.  

[arturfan]

I wonder if a composer would need to have a reputation arguably belied by the quality of his or her music, or at least be relatively well-known, even to warrant disdain.  For example, the Henselt Library is chock full of also-ran nineteenth century composers who are probably too obscure to stir up most people's scorn.

I've never equated commercial success or popularity with excellence, but I'm really having trouble thinking of anybody who achieved a degree of enduring fame whose music I "can't stand"—or about whom I'd make such a sweeping statement—from any period.

 Good point.  I don't have any Romantic composers that I can't stand, but Schumann and Schubert are at the bottom of my list of familiar composers. The worst of the best, I suppose, for me.

[ahinton]

If I don't agree with Thal on Schumann, I always enjoy his posts and he's a good chap.  

Excellent, I'd say!

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

Then you would appear to know little.

I know what i Like and what i do not. The same as all of us here.

I have had very little music instruction in my life, so therefore it is difficult for me to express myself in musical terms. This is why i use other forms of description and my posts are not very long.

So kindly bog off.

Thal

[orangesodaking]

One of the big problems with romantic music is that there is too much romanticism.

Thal

Alkan could be a breath of fresh air to you, then. For the most part, he was a very old-school tradition-following composer. This piece reminds me a lot of the first movement of a middle or late Beethoven sonata.

I am not too critical of composers or music. I like all the romantic composers. I love Chopin, Liszt, Mendelssohn, Schubert, Schumann, Brahms, and as a big Alkan supporter, I'll toss him in there with the rest of his contemporaries.

[ahinton]

I know what i Like and what i do not. The same as all of us here.

I have had very little music instruction in my life, so therefore it is difficult for me to express myself in musical terms. This is why i use other forms of description and my posts are not very long.

So kindly bog off.

No - YOU kindly review the post concerned, in which I quoted you as having written
"I know from some of your posts that you prefer 800 pages of detailed explanation, but that (thankfully) is not my style".
In my response to this I was quite clearly casting no aspersions on your knowledge as a whole (which in certain areas is, as I know, considerable), nor was I referring to what you know your likes and dislikes to be; I was instead referring solely to what you know from my posts as to the depth of explanation that you'd assume me to prefer. The fact that I added that a single page from you on the matter concerned would be welcome should further clarify matters. I am not expecting even a page of deep musicological analysis of your thoughts on and reactions to Schumann, nor am I expecting what you might write on that subject to be full of technical jargon; most music is not, after all, written for the sole purpose of addressing professional musicians and others who are possessed of a thorough technical knowledge of music. Your responses to Schumann are, however, so very negative that there must surely be reasons for this that are amenable to expression in non-technical terms of what aspects of Schunmann's work you find so anathematic and why you apparently react in this way to everything (rather than just certain works) of Schumann that you have ever heard. If those are your reactions, then so be it, of course; it just might have been interesting to have some background to them, that's all.

I am sorry that you have misunderstood my post.

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

I am sorry that you have misunderstood my post.

I am sorry that i did not read it.

Thal

[ahinton]

I am sorry that i did not read it.

But I think that you must have done, otherwise you'd not have been able to respond as you did; to remind you, all that I wrote in it was
"Then you would appear to know little [i.e. of what I might "prefer" you to write]. One page would do nicely, thanks."

Anyway - over to you if you decide after all to share with us something of your thoughts on and responses to Schumann; maybe this might be made easier if you present these in the context of what you observe in the work of some of his contemporaries that you find to be far more to your liking.

Best,

Alistair

[orangesodaking]

I don't get what the big deal is with Schumann! I mean, I don't mind listening to his music. His piano concerto is a nice, standard piece that follows a good traditional format. Of course, I don't feel he is as important a composer as Chopin or Liszt, but I don't think his music is all bad. I also like the Fantasiestücke and the other set of fantasy pieces for piano and cello (or clarinet).

[pianisten1989]

All of the Strauss!
All of them has got this uber-german names like Johann and Richard. Probably some untalandet little boy, who they gave away, named Hans-Klaus or Gunther von Gretchen.

And I can't stand Sibelius. All pianomusic he wrote has got extremely depressing names like The Old Tree, The Lake, The Old tree by the lake, the Sea, The old tree by the nake and rather near the Sea, and so on! Once a pianist had a recital, with an hour of Sibelius. I thoght I'd kill myself.

And Carl Nielsen!! He was danish, and I am swede. .. That's it really.

[simonjp90]

No - YOU kindly review the post concerned, in which I quoted you as having written
"I know from some of your posts that you prefer 800 pages of detailed explanation, but that (thankfully) is not my style".
In my response to this I was quite clearly casting no aspersions on your knowledge as a whole (which in certain areas is, as I know, considerable), nor was I referring to what you know your likes and dislikes to be; I was instead referring solely to what you know from my posts as to the depth of explanation that you'd assume me to prefer. The fact that I added that a single page from you on the matter concerned would be welcome should further clarify matters. I am not expecting even a page of deep musicological analysis of your thoughts on and reactions to Schumann, nor am I expecting what you might write on that subject to be full of technical jargon; most music is not, after all, written for the sole purpose of addressing professional musicians and others who are possessed of a thorough technical knowledge of music. Your responses to Schumann are, however, so very negative that there must surely be reasons for this that are amenable to expression in non-technical terms of what aspects of Schunmann's work you find so anathematic and why you apparently react in this way to everything (rather than just certain works) of Schumann that you have ever heard. If those are your reactions, then so be it, of course; it just might have been interesting to have some background to them, that's all.

I am sorry that you have misunderstood my post.

Best,

Alistair

yeah, innit bruv

[ahinton]

yeah, innit bruv

Er - pardon?...

Best,

Alistair

[georgecziffra]

Yeah, isn't it brother?

[simonjp90]

It absolutely is

[stevebob]

I wonder if it's common for non-professionals to feel unable to express their opinions and attitudes about musical content (or, at least, be inhibited from doing so).  I agree that music isn't composed to be enjoyed solely by those who have specialized technical knowledge for expert analysis—but such a level of expertise isn't a prerequisite to articulating one's views based on more fundamental information about music that's accessible to everyone.

My formal education was not in music.  My lessons in childhood barely touched on theory, so, like many classical pianists, I learned to play any notation on the score but without understanding chords, cadences, harmony, etc.  I wasn't taught anything about sonata-allegro form or modes or even scale degrees.  I've tried to piece things together bit by bit on my own.

Even though jazz theory books can still overwhelm, and essays that subject musical structures to Schenkerian scrutiny remain elusive, it really is possible for the layperson (and certainly for a serious musician with an inherent interest in the subject) to learn as little or as much as one wishes.  Resources are available for acquiring the concepts and the vocabulary in a linear way and without seeming filled with intimidating technical jargon.

I value being able to communicate comfortably about music with professionals and even academics.  We all have opinions, and we participate in forums like this one to express them.  If we're called upon to defend our views or to demonstrate a thoughtful basis for an attitude we hold (as does inevitably happen ), we can—with a bit of diligence—feel confident that our opinions are informed and considered opinions.

[slow_concert_pianist]

If you ask me, Robert's is just bad, whereas Clara's is atrocious.

Wow, can I hear your piano concerto for comparison?

[slow_concert_pianist]

I do not even speak of Clara as her concerto is barely music.

I honestly feel that Schumann lovers on this forum need to get out a little and start to explore.

Thal

Please give some examples of piano concertos you have composed at age 16, Thal. I don't specifically listen to either Schumann, but I respect them both and Robert's concerto is one of the finest ever written. That's my opinion.

However my favourite concertos are:

Dvorak
Massenet
Balakirev 2
SaintSaens 4

[retrouvailles]

Wow, can I hear your piano concerto for comparison?

Just because I have not written a piano concerto doesn't mean that I am not at grounds to talk badly about another composition. Now, please, stay out if you are going to make stupid remarks that detract from the original subject. I still maintain that both Schumann concertos are better left unheard.

[thalbergmad]

Please give some examples of piano concertos you have composed at age 16, Thal.

Absurd sentence. One does not have to be superior to that which he is criticising. All you need is a little bit of knowledge and understanding of the subject matter.

Do I have to be a better footballer than Ronaldo to criticise his poncy footwork?

Thal

[simonjp90]

Absurd sentence. One does not have to be superior to that which he is criticising. All you need is a little bit of knowledge and understanding of the subject matter.

Do I have to be a better footballer than Ronaldo to criticise his poncy footwork?

Thal

Aren't you?

[xerxais]

I loathe Johann Strauss

[wogandmush]

Bruckner - Why is he remembered? Awful.
Rachmaninoff - He is overly sentimental, even if he didn't think so himself. Most of his music is just terrificly boring. He should have stayed depressed.

And Schumann is awesome! Probably the most romantic of romantic composers, but with the compositional chops to back it up.

[thalbergmad]

And Schumann is awesome! Probably the most romantic of romantic composers, but with the compositional chops to back it up.

Interesting planet you live on

[ahinton]

Interesting planet you live on

Interesting or not, it's the same one that you live on, old chap!

Best,

Alistair

[liordavid]

personally i really think schubert is my favorite romantic composer. the thing that schubert does that a lot of people find annoying is overly repeating a melody. I cannot deal with schumann

[ramseytheii]

I think my least favorite Romantic composers are opera ones, like Meyerbeer and Massenet, whose music makes me "throw up in my mouth a little bit."

Haha!  I've always wanted to say that!

Walter Ramsey

[vviola]

It is mainly the Italian composers that affect me that way.

[weissenberg2]

Bruckner - Why is he remembered? Awful.
Rachmaninoff - He is overly sentimental, even if he didn't think so himself. Most of his music is just terrificly boring. He should have stayed depressed.

And Schumann is awesome! Probably the most romantic of romantic composers, but with the compositional chops to back it up.

I also hate Bruckner. I half agree with what you said about Rachmaninoff. Some of his pieces are a little too over-sentimental for me, but not all. The piano sonatas, 2nd trio elegiac, Isle of the Dead etc... are not to over-sentimental. And he did stay depressed through most of his life.

I agree Schumann is awesome. It is not too sentimental, but not too cold and it is well-written. I prefer Brahms and Mendelssohn a little more though.

I think my least favorite Romantic composers are opera ones, like Meyerbeer and Massenet, whose music makes me "throw up in my mouth a little bit."

Me too, I like Bellini though.

[john11inc]

I also hate Bruckner.

>:

And to think, I was beginning to like you.


Anyway.  Grieg, Brahms (hit and miss, but dislike most), Mendelssohn, Dvorak, Schumann, Franck, Busoni, Reger, Chausson, Bruch, Sibelius, Saint-Saens, Mahler, Strauss.   I think Sibelius counts as Romantic?

[weissenberg2]

>:

And to think, I was beginning to like you.


Anyway.  Grieg, Brahms (hit and miss, but dislike most), Mendelssohn, Dvorak, Schumann, Franck, Busoni, Reger, Chausson, Bruch, Sibelius, Saint-Saens, Mahler, Strauss.   I think Sibelius counts as Romantic?

I don't hate him, I just don't see whats all so great about him. Why do you hate Mendelssohn and Dvorak? I am quite certain Sibelius counts as Romantic.

[john11inc]

Why do you hate Mendelssohn and Dvorak?

Words that come to mind about these two composers' music: populist, repetitive, derivative, uninspired, cheap, salon.

[weissenberg2]

Words that come to mind about these two composers' music: populist, repetitive, derivative, uninspired, cheap, salon.

I strongly disagree, but you are intitled to your opinion.

Just out of curiousity, which 19th century composers do you like?

[liordavid]

I think my least favorite Romantic composers are opera ones, like Meyerbeer and Massenet, whose music makes me "throw up in my mouth a little bit."

Haha!  I've always wanted to say that!

Walter Ramsey

I can not stand Wagner. He was anti-semetic and as a jew a find it very disturbing. He was the Mel Gibson of classical music

[pianowolfi]

I have no idea of how it can happen that a pianist doesn't like Chopin
But well, one of my friends who is a quite good amateur pianist said to me "Either you like Liszt or Chopin, but not both" hmmm perhaps this is often the case...Chopinians and Lisztians.