Let's have another discussion about modernism!

[pies]

love the title 'that ain't sh*t'

It's a nice piece, too.  It doesn't sound anything like the stereotypical Finnissy we all know and most hate.

[lontano]

I seem somehow to recall that this thread was about "modernism" at some point; irrespective of the extent to which I deprecate the term for reasons as provided previously, the digressions that I have noted of late seem to me to depart even farther from what might have been the intended motive of the instigator of this thread in terms of the kind of discussion for which that person probably hoped...

Best,

Alistair

THANK YOU!

L.

[lontano]

Best improv eva??

This is Hamelin's improv cadenza, isn't it?

For me, a true improve must be unrehearsed, spontaneous, and I doubt Hamelin recorded this under those conditions. I'd probably have to listen to Rzewski's recording to see how "off the cuff" it sounds to me today.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

L.

[pies]

It's Rzewski's improv from his 1990 recording.  I think it's the best of his three (?) recordings of the work. Hamelin could never pull off anything as amazing as this.

[lontano]

It's Rzewski's improv from his 1990 recording.  I think it's the best of his three (?) recordings of the work. Hamelin could never pull off anything as amazing as this.

Yep, as I listened to it all the way, I began to doubt my initial statement. I never knew Rzewski recorded it 3 times! The one I have was released on hatART and to my knowledge was the last he made, and if so, I agree, it's awesome ! He's a monster of a pianist - in his realm he commands the piano to rise up and assault the listener with hammers of the gods! 

L. 

[pies]

a

[lontano]

Here's an example of how "modernism" can be interpreted locally.

Back in the late 80's I worked a modern music concert in a small concert hall (with great acoustics) at my college. If I remember correctly, there were two works presented that night, both of which I was very fond of, and both quite different in form.

As I recall the first half of the program was George Crumb's "Macrokosmos I, for 2 amplified pianos). Since it's first recording, this work fascinated me to no end, and like all of Crumb's scores, it was a piece of art in itself, but I can understand if some don't like it, regarding it as gimmickry and vacuous, but I love it.

The 2nd work was Fredrick Rzewski's "The People United Will Never Be Defeated", a landmark work, one of the greatest piano works of the 20th century, as the theme is a traditional motif for many, especially Latin-American, songs for the common people rising against the forces of oppression.

These works I had studied closely for at least a few years and admired them both for their own unique power and ingenuity.

The concert was very well performed, and while the audience was likely under 150 people, at least one reporter for the local newspaper was present (an elderly heavy-set woman, moving slowly with a cane, well-known in the community who I recognized, but did not know).

In the next local arts section of the paper was her review of the show, and I was quite shocked, to say the least. And here I am just approximating what I remember from 18 years ago:

The Rzewski work was uninspired, using gimmicks and cliche to fill out far too many minutes of flashy and empty substance.

The Crumb work was far more interesting, full of raw energy and delicate finesse in a tapestry of metaphorical intrigue.

Forgive me, as this is NOT a quote, just a generalization of what I recall of the event, but in the thread of Modernism, I think it shows a rather significant example of how average, middle American arts can be perceived, even by their most trusted critics.

In the immediate aftermath my colleagues pondered what that woman would interpret the show we hosted, and we were all pretty amazed. We all pretty much agreed that the Rzewski "The People United" was the more significant and grounded work, an acknowledged masterwork already, and the Crumb was sort of "out there in the world of phantasms of astrological proportions", but still a masterpiece in its own unique way.

All in all, all I suggest is that "modernism" is in some part as unique to the composer as it is to the performer and ultimately, the listener. There will always be composers pushing the envelope as far out of proportion as it can get away with without getting arrested, just in the belief that some day in the distant future their work might be rediscovered and finally appreciated. And what more traditional hope is there? Many, many composers have spent untold episodes of arduous time writing works that may only be appreciated, somewhere out there, it the Future! 

A grand hope, and the most powerful motivator for the advancement and continuation of composing and painting and sculpting and advancing theories of astro/quantum/unified physics, and preserving the entire planets ecology before it dissolves to a point from which we cannot escape.

If you've read this far, it's time to do something else. I am ready for bed,

Lontano

[pies]

Don't let the thread die!!

A fun weird piece I found recently:

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[indutrial]

Don't let the thread die!!

A fun weird piece I found recently:

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To be honest, I feel that this is the sort of 'anything-goes' work from the past 50 years that makes the genre look worse for wear. This piece may have an interesting scoring approach, but the music says very little in the long run, even when the musicians do a decent job of pulling it off with accuracy.

It's not as annoying as half-assed as this composition by Steve Reich:

Honestly, it's really quite a feat that the musicians can perform a work like this with such accuracy, but that doesn't mean that the composition is anything of merit (though it's certainly good as a torture device for players/listeners). Am I supposed to be massively impressed with a piece that had to have taken less than 5 minutes to create. About 10 dozen electronica/IDM artists who'd never heard a thing about Reich or minimalism probably created things like this on whims in the past decade.

[pies]

Yeah, such works usually have next to no musical value, but they're nice to listen to when you're in the right mood.

[retrouvailles]

Yeah, such works usually have next to no musical value, but they're nice to listen to when you're in the right mood.

Well, so is some late Philip Glass, but that doesn't make it good music in the least.

[communist]

Is Giya Kanchelli a minimalist? and if so to what extent?

[ahinton]

Well, so is some late Philip Glass, but that doesn't make it good music in the least.

So Philip Glass has already entered his late phase, has he? Should we celebrate?

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

So Philip Glass has already entered his late pahse, has he? Should we celebrate?

I do not know whether to celebrate or not, since i have no idea what a pahse is.

Thal

[gep]

Yeah, such works usually have next to no musical value, but they're nice to listen to when you're in the right mood.

Question is, do I want to be in whatever the right mood is to percieve something like this as "nice"?

[thalbergmad]

Anyone ever heard anything by Stanley Hollingsworth??

Thal

[ahinton]

I do not know whether to celebrate or not

Never mind, Thal; any excuse for a beer, surely?

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

Well, it is Friday night.

Infact, it is Saturday morning now.

hic

Thal

[lontano]

To be honest, I feel that this is the sort of 'anything-goes' work from the past 50 years that makes the genre look worse for wear. This piece may have an interesting scoring approach, but the music says very little in the long run, even when the musicians do a decent job of pulling it off with accuracy.

It's not as annoying as half-assed as this composition by Steve Reich:

Honestly, it's really quite a feat that the musicians can perform a work like this with such accuracy, but that doesn't mean that the composition is anything of merit (though it's certainly good as a torture device for players/listeners). Am I supposed to be massively impressed with a piece that had to have taken less than 5 minutes to create. About 10 dozen electronica/IDM artists who'd never heard a thing about Reich or minimalism probably created things like this on whims in the past decade.

The idea that Reich had in making the "phasing" pieces is that while completely repetitious, layering each iteration of the primary (currently played by the leader) sequence off by just the slightest degree of time, again and again by each player, so as in works like "Six Pianos/Marimbas" create wonderful, unexpected new rhythms within rhythms. It's an interesting exercise, and some ideas work out better than others, and I too am amazed the concentration it must take to keep complete focus on your particular phase within grand phasing going on all around you.

I find (some of) these works fascinating but it's hardly mainstream music. One personal note: I had a record of Reich's piece in this style called "Drumming" and I really didn't like it. It consists of the following:

    * 8 small tuned bongo drums
    * 3 marimbas
    * 3 glockenspiels
    * 2 or 3 female voices
    * 1 whistler, doubling piccolo
Then Reich came to town and performed this and numerous other works. When Drumming finally came to an end I was in awe. To see these people perform this complex thing was vastly different than listening to a record of it. That concert quickly swayed my appreciation of Reich as an innovated and very talented percussionist, with a small army of similarly gifted performers, to the positive. Drumming (1972) was the last phasing work he wrote, but he had an interesting idea and brought it to fruition, and to see it performed is a real treat.
 
Lontano

[indutrial]

So Philip Glass has already entered his late phase, has he? Should we celebrate?

Best,

Alistair

I'd say it's more like he's not entered his early phase and has somehow been getting by writing juvenalia his whole career. I just hope his career ends without him getting either a Pulitzer Prize or a MacArthur grant. The former went to Reich this year and the latter blew a ton of money giving that douchey scumbag John Zorn a grant, so who knows what disaster comes next.

[indutrial]

Then Reich came to town and performed this and numerous other works. When Drumming finally came to an end I was in awe. To see these people perform this complex thing was vastly different than listening to a record of it. That concert quickly swayed my appreciation of Reich as an innovated and very talented percussionist, with a small army of similarly gifted performers, to the positive. Drumming (1972) was the last phasing work he wrote, but he had an interesting idea and brought it to fruition, and to see it performed is a real treat.
 
Lontano

For me, Reich's music is nice, but no matter how unfathomable an accurate performance may be, I'm not at all blown away by the end result. I'm sure seeing some of his works performed is quite excellent (I recall enjoying seeing the drummer in my band playing Nagoya Marimbas at his graduate recital), but the work does not carry a stitch of lasting appeal when I hear the music on recording. If I want to hear music that takes a forward-thinking look at time and rhythm, I'll stick with Carter, Wuorinen, and many other maligned modern composers who are willing to engage these ideas without needing to turn the clock back to zero with harmony, counterpoint, and creativity.

As a side note, why do so many minimalist concerts feel the need to incorporate cheesy light shows. Someone sent me a link to Reich's triple quartet (another emotionless horror of a composition in which Reich does a fine job of stuffing bits of Bartok into aluminum cans and selling them in six-packs) and the string orchestra is playing in front of a movie screen that's running a whole series of trippy visuals like what you could get Windows Media Player to do 10 years ago (remember Battery, Ambient). Another bunch of Philip Glass videos have a pianist playing with a bunch of green lasers creating geometric shapes during the performance. This kind of bollocks really speaks volumes about the appeal of this kind of music. This is the classical world's version of Pink Floyd, a band that, in the rock world, added absolutely NOTHING to the history of song-writing but managed to confuse millions into thinking that their work reached transcendent highs with their over-the-top presentation methods. When you write an album that has no hooks whatsoever and tons of directionless jamming, just make sure you bring a giant inflatable pig to give the fans something to keep them from falling asleep.

[pies]

a

[indutrial]

https://www.reuters.com/article/scienceNews/idUSTRE56S3ZJ20090730

 

Yeah...I heard that as well. I was definitely not citing the aforementioned 'organic food shopping' as a definite positive. I've just met so many classical and jazz musicians who are the types of folks who will swear by the Whole Foods instead of Superfresh or the Wawa for pretty much anything. I personally love Whole Foods' prepared foods and produce (which is simply more diverse and better-cared-for then the bruised-up garbage at the regular store), but the hippified organic-vs.-inorganic hubbub never interested me much. Food could be completely synthetic as long as it keeps me energized, doesn't rot my teeth, doesn't fatten my ass, and doesn't give me cancer.