Are "high" arts really all that "high"?

[l. ron hubbard]

I am sure that most of you observed to some extent that many so called "cultured" people are quite ignorant of the masses and are quite devoted to themselves. They see themselves as somehow superior to others and disregard things they consider as "low."If you look at them as a group, they behave no different than your average teenagers. Both are preoccupied with themselves. They are cultured snobs I think.

What does this have to do with anything? If these "cultured" people really do look down on others, doesn't that promote a certain segregation between people? We all know that segregation is never a good thing. What are your opinions?

[thalberg]

[deleted by author]

[gyzzzmo]

You're stating that there would be segragation because the 'cultured people' (professors) look down on other people. Did it ever occur to you that its usually (or even more often) the other way around?
Alot of people feel themselves 'low' because of the superiority on certain skills (or money) of some people, and feel themselves different and insecure towards them.
I can speak from experience too. My girlfriend grew up in a bad part of the city we live in and she's a surgeon now. When we meet people from her past and start chatting, its all very cosy untill we start talking about jobs. Once they hear the word surgeon they say like a silent 'wow' and the conversation drops dead.

Ofcourse its the other way around too, but the issue clearly comes from both sides and has to do more with the (in)security of the person, than with his job/money/superiority.

Gyzzzmo

[rc]

I've also met people from all walks of life and all sorts of abilities who felt the need to seem superior to those around them.

[l. ron hubbard]

You're stating that there would be segragation because the 'cultured people' (professors) look down on other people. Did it ever occur to you that its usually (or even more often) the other way around?

I see what you are saying, and you are right. There is however an unspoken assumption that people that are preoccupied with higher paying jobs, or people that are involved in the "high" things are somehow better than the rest. Most people that have greater professions or get more money will naturally feel superior to others. They are often greedy and self-centered. It is only because of this that the lower classes look down on the upper ones. If the high people were seen as equals, lower people wouldn't have to bear resentment.

[gyzzzmo]

I see what you are saying, and you are right. There is however an unspoken assumption that people that are preoccupied with higher paying jobs, or people that are involved in the "high" things are somehow better than the rest. Most people that have greater professions or get more money will naturally feel superior to others. They are often greedy and self-centered. It is only because of this that the lower classes look down on the upper ones. If the high people were seen as equals, lower people wouldn't have to bear resentment.

To me it seems that its more an issue of you yourself. You say that the 'upper-class' people often are greedy and self-centered, wich is a very radical way of thinking itself.

As i already said, that urge of feeling superior or minor towards other people is a problem of personality, something that has nothing to do with job or money.

[perfect_pitch]

Gyzzzmo - considering the guys nickname is L Ron Hubbard... I'm pretty sure that some of his beliefs have been tainted by a certain 'cult'...



(just kidding).

But I seriously doubt that those with higher paying jobs feel that they are superior to others. Perhaps they truly value the true worth of money and take it for granted? Everyone can be equals until some guy decides to stick their nose up at another person.

[l. ron hubbard]

To me it seems that its more an issue of you yourself. You say that the 'upper-class' people often are greedy and self-centered, wich is a very radical way of thinking itself.

As i already said, that urge of feeling superior or minor towards other people is a problem of personality, something that has nothing to do with job or money.

No, the idea that upper classes consider themselves superior isn't new. I am not saying that all rich or cultured people are like that, but a vast majority are. The upper class have always been notorious for being greedy, so I'm abit interested as to why you consider my thinking radical. The urge to feel superior or otherwise is a problem of personality, but it is one brough on by surroundings. If you have been reared in a wealthy family that practices egocentrism, you will probably adopt its habits.

[gyzzzmo]

The urge to feel superior or otherwise is a problem of personality, but it is one brough on by surroundings. If you have been reared in a wealthy family that practices egocentrism, you will probably adopt its habits.

Simular, if you've been reared in a poor family that practices egocentrism, you'll probably adopt its habits. So it has nothing to do with the class itself, its about how you've been raised.

And the reason i called your thinking radical, is because youre a black-and-white thinker. Your parents are probably pretty materialistic (and american), and because they dont have the money to buy all the rubbish they want, they start complaining about the 'unfair rich people who do have the stuff'.
Your idea's about snobs probably sometimes get confirmed by snobs because theyre so visual. On the other hand, the rich/cultered/(whatever) people who arent snobs cant contradict your idea's, because theyre not that visual in fancy cars or big houses. Its just a silly cliché that comes from a discomfort from a person who 'also wants it all', and you see what you want to see: rich people are all snobs.

[zheer]

They see themselves as somehow superior to others and disregard things they consider as "low.

As a musician I get and I've got a lot of that, people looking down on me, you see where I'm from musicians are considered to be the lowest of low. I get patronized and dismissed a lot, but I know deep down that they are wrong.

[ramseytheii]

I am sure that most of you observed to some extent that many so called "cultured" people are quite ignorant of the masses and are quite devoted to themselves. They see themselves as somehow superior to others and disregard things they consider as "low."If you look at them as a group, they behave no different than your average teenagers. Both are preoccupied with themselves. They are cultured snobs I think.

What does this have to do with anything? If these "cultured" people really do look down on others, doesn't that promote a certain segregation between people? We all know that segregation is never a good thing. What are your opinions?

Oh really?  I have always seen it the other way around.  Those who love their arts, and mind their own business, are always attacked by the jealous masses who think that to love a certain kind of thing is to make you a bad person.  The feeling of superiority doesn't come from those who devote themselves to whatever culture they are interested in, be it painting or music or literature or whatever, but it comes from those who think those things are an inherent waste of time.

Walter Ramsey

[l. ron hubbard]

And the reason i called your thinking radical, is because youre a black-and-white thinker. Your parents are probably pretty materialistic (and american), and because they dont have the money to buy all the rubbish they want, they start complaining about the 'unfair rich people who do have the stuff'.
Your idea's about snobs probably sometimes get confirmed by snobs because theyre so visual. On the other hand, the rich/cultered/(whatever) people who arent snobs cant contradict your idea's, because theyre not that visual in fancy cars or big houses. Its just a silly cliché that comes from a discomfort from a person who 'also wants it all', and you see what you want to see: rich people are all snobs.

Actually my parents aren't rich at all. I myself own nothing. I don't need much. I am also not complaining about anything. I don't understand what you mean by "visual." Bottom line is this: Those that are thought of as being "cultural" often undermine others because of their status. Many of these "cultured" people isolate themselves from others by building big houses, buying big things, and simply living big. My point is that if you practice such behavior, you are ultimately setting up hatred toward yourself. In that, there is a big difference between being "cultured" or rich, and being wise. Those who are wise do not propagate their status by acquiring material things. The poor, or those that lack "culture," are not exempt from this. By coveting the rich, or coveting the essence of "culture," they too are fostering attachment for material gain and are therefore unwise, as material gain only leads to megalomania.

[l. ron hubbard]

Oh really?  I have always seen it the other way around.  Those who love their arts, and mind their own business, are always attacked by the jealous masses who think that to love a certain kind of thing is to make you a bad person.  The feeling of superiority doesn't come from those who devote themselves to whatever culture they are interested in, be it painting or music or literature or whatever, but it comes from those who think those things are an inherent waste of time.

Walter Ramsey

This is only because the rich, or the "cultured" have built a wall of ignorance about themselves. If you create something and only allow a certain portion of people access to it, the rest of the populace will naturally resent you. Do you think everyone can afford a piano?

[kay3087]

Generalizations, generalizations, generalizations.

Who and what exactly are we talking about?

There will always be people that think themselves superior to others, no matter what class or background. It's human nature.

[lostinidlewonder]

People are who snobs and arrogant never get far professionally. Those in very high positions are usually extremely likeable and sociable people. If you do not treat consumers as king or nurture your employees your business will fail no matter how much knowledge you have.

Then you get people who have no position but act like arrogant pricks in their own little niche, who cares really? And then you get those who have position and are arrogant, you can bet your bottom dollar they will stay in their same position for a longer time than someone with more charisma.

Most people who are arrogant are actually quite insecure people. They find the majority of their meaning in life by comparing their ability with those that they think are "lesser". They feel good walking through the public and thinking, Ha I am so special, these people never could achieve what I do, they are lesser than me!

I was like this was I was younger. Because no one I met could play the piano as good as me, even professional concert pianists looked bad to me! But this arrogance makes you bathe in the knowledge of "You don't know you don't know". You just don't realize that behaving in this manner highlights your own insecurity and sensititvity to self worth and limits your ability to learn and absorb wisdom. Abandoning these thoughts sets you free and then you can enjoy what you do without having to compare yourself with people. You will also learn a great deal more if you do so without the comparison of others" as a motivator. Your goals and enjoyment in life are achieved more respectfully (to yourself and others) if they come from your own reasons, not derived from what you see in others.

Arrogance limits your ability to learn, it is as if you are satisfied that your knowledge is saturated so far and high that no one can teach you anything new. Isn't life is about constantly learning something new? There is always something within us where "We don't know we don't know", arrogance puts a shroud over this issue. Every person you meet is an agent of wisdom and knowledge for you to learn from even if what they say goes against your ideologies.

For those who think they are being looked down upon, we have to be careful ourselves not to be self centered and arrogant! Why do we care so much if someone looks down upon us? Does that mean we are any lesser of a person? We should not have a superiority complex when we meet people who are more intelligent or able than ourselves. And if we think that they are being arrogant just ignore it and act as if you are wrong about detecting their arrogance.

[gyzzzmo]

Actually my parents aren't rich at all. I myself own nothing. I don't need much. I am also not complaining about anything. I don't understand what you mean by "visual." Bottom line is this: Those that are thought of as being "cultural" often undermine others because of their status. Many of these "cultured" people isolate themselves from others by building big houses, buying big things, and simply living big. My point is that if you practice such behavior, you are ultimately setting up hatred toward yourself. In that, there is a big difference between being "cultured" or rich, and being wise. Those who are wise do not propagate their status by acquiring material things. The poor, or those that lack "culture," are not exempt from this. By coveting the rich, or coveting the essence of "culture," they too are fostering attachment for material gain and are therefore unwise, as material gain only leads to megalomania.

Being 'materialistic' has nothign to do with being rich, its about finding items and visual appearances important.
And those who are 'wise', dont generalise and think in boxes like you do. But i suppose if you were a more rational and independent thinker, you'd never be such a fan of scientology in the first place i suppose.

By the way, being 'cultured' has nothing to do with poor or rich. If somebody has a good income, it is usually because he had the luck that his job pays well. And living in spacious rooms is more comfortable than living tiny, so why not by a decent-sized house if you got the money anyway? That doesnt say anything though about the personality of a person, it only says something about economy.

[ramseytheii]

This is only because the rich, or the "cultured" have built a wall of ignorance about themselves. If you create something and only allow a certain portion of people access to it, the rest of the populace will naturally resent you. Do you think everyone can afford a piano?

Oh please.  There are plenty of people out there, rich and poor, who have an innocent love for classical music, if that's what you are talking about.  I have such an innocent love.  I never felt it made me better than anyone else - but plenty of people thought it made me inferior to them.

It's because people out there want to enforce normalcy.  If you like something that has only a niche interest, you are not normal, and there are lots of people out there who will attack you for it.

Not everyone can afford a piano, so who is the Satan who invented it?  What a classist.  Of course, not everyone can afford a car either - carowners be damned; not everyone can afford a monthly bus pass - monthly bus pass holders be damned.  In short, everyone is worthy of scathing scorn except the people that can't afford anything at all?

Noone is "not allowed" to hear classical music.  That's just an idiotic thing to say.

Walter Ramsey

[gyzzzmo]

Theres a nice simularity between our dear old friend Pianistisimo and l ron hubbard, wich gave me a thought (thank god i have a thought!):
Maybe cults dont excist. Its all about members being convinced about something that cant be proven afterall. I gues only 'cultists' excist, people who mindlessly take over vague statements and lines and keep defending it on every point, no matter it goes against common sense.

Sadly enough that also means theres absolutely no point in trying to discuss anything with these figures/cultists. They already gave up their ratio.

Gyzzz

[l. ron hubbard]

Being 'materialistic' has nothign to do with being rich, its about finding items and visual appearances important.

Actually if you find visual appearances important then you are materialistic. People who are free of materialism have no desire to be rich. Rich people naturally would have a harder time staying clear of desires because they have lots of access to them.

I am not a Scientologist. I just made the nickname for fun. My former nickname was Debussy Symbolism. I do not think in a box. I am aware that the stereotype is just that. There are of course people who don't apply to it. The point I am trying to make is that in general, people who own more things often consider themselves superior, when in fact they are not.

By the way, being 'cultured' has nothing to do with poor or rich. If somebody has a good income, it is usually because he had the luck that his job pays well. And living in spacious rooms is more comfortable than living tiny, so why not by a decent-sized house if you got the money anyway? That doesnt say anything though about the personality of a person, it only says something about economy.

Yes you are correct. I am just generalizing about how the rich conduct themselves.

[gyzzzmo]

Actually if you find visual appearances important then you are materialistic. People who are free of materialism have no desire to be rich. Rich people naturally would have a harder time staying clear of desires because they have lots of access to them.
I am not a Scientologist. I just made the nickname for fun. My former nickname was Debussy Symbolism. I do not think in a box. I am aware that the stereotype is just that. There are of course people who don't apply to it. The point I am trying to make is that in general, people who own more things often consider themselves superior, when in fact they are not.
Yes you are correct. I am just generalizing about how the rich conduct themselves.

Your generalizing is so ridiculous that its just stupid and doestn make any sense anymore. I'm sorry i'm being harsh, but your reasoning is just childish and your stereotypes just arent true. Maybe if you had abit more experience in the world you could understand waht i'm talking about.

[richard black]

Sorry, since when was there a causal link between being 'cultured' and being rich?

And as for whoever it was who asked in everyone can afford a piano - yes, they can. Certainly in the western countries. I look at the poor round here (I live in a poor district of London) and an amazing number of them have a TV, smart clothes, often a car, all sorts of unnecessary stuff. Junk that and they could easily afford a piano. In my wife's native country, Georgia, practically everyone has a piano - that's a country where many live on $200 a month or less. Sure, some of the pianos are in shocking condition but they're still pianos.

[l. ron hubbard]

Your generalizing is so ridiculous that its just stupid and doestn make any sense anymore. I'm sorry i'm being harsh, but your reasoning is just childish and your stereotypes just arent true. Maybe if you had abit more experience in the world you could understand waht i'm talking about.

Maybe you are right, and I do have lots to learn. There are lots of cultured or rich people who are kind. I am sorry again for generalizing, it is just that I was always under the impression that those who are lucky in either finance or culture status are ignorant of the less lucky ones. I understand what you mean though.

[gyzzzmo]

Maybe you are right, and I do have lots to learn. There are lots of cultured or rich people who are kind. I am sorry again for generalizing, it is just that I was always under the impression that those who are lucky in either finance or culture status are ignorant of the less lucky ones. I understand what you mean though.

Its just that people follow a certain line in their lives. They study what they find interesting (enough) and they create values to things because of circumstances in the past.
Its normal under people to collect people around them with the same values and interests, just because people find that comforting. It doesnt have much to do with 'ignorance' towards other type of people.
And just as people who like soccer who go to a soccergame together (or whatever), people who like finances play golf together (or whatever). It doesnt make either group any better.

But it is true that groups of people that are very far apart from each other in interests and values, dont understand each other.
You for example, find the cultured/rich ignorant towards your own group. But if you do some self-reflecting, you'll start to understand that you are just as ignorant towards them as you think they are ignorant towards you........ Wich is both sad and funny

Gyzzzmo