piano skill

[Spatula]

I'm mr. friendly (really I am), just today was adrenaline overdrive day.  I swear I will not post another one for 48 hrs starting 5:00 PM Moutain time  

[willcowskitz]

To add to definition of avatar:

-A temporary manifestation or aspect of a continuing entity.

-An image representing a user in a multi-user virtual reality.

[bernhard]

JK: Who said Brahms killed cats?  

Peter HK did it. Here:

https://www.pianoforum.net/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=nopi;action=display;num=1084249192

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[Spatula]

To add to definition of avatar:

-A temporary manifestation or aspect of a continuing entity.

-An image representing a user in a multi-user virtual reality.

Ummm does this avatar stuff have anything to do with me?  Whatever may be of this avatar I will have none of it unless I know what you're talking about

[xvimbi]

Ummm does this avatar stuff have anything to do with me?  Whatever may be of this avatar I will have none of it unless I know what you're talking about

Spatula, if you are not knowledgeable of the concept of avatar and you don't know if it refers to you or not, then it doesn't have anything to do with you. On the other hand, if you think it does, then it most certainly will. That should clear things up for you.

[f0bul0us]

PeterHK
I just read from the local columns that Johannes Brahms the German composer was known to have the inhumane desire (and actions) to kill cats with arrow shots in order to alleviate stress.

Wow...powerful scandals.

[faulty_damper]

Lemme guess, those that acted very arrogant toward your post (and directly you) about only about a years experience and aspiring to play very difficult pieces are probably justifying their own experiences and lessons as children and how they sat through hours upon hours of lessons for 4 or 5 years and only came away with Chopsticks and Happy Birthday and want you to go through that as well.  And a couple of ABRSM exams to gloat!

Ha!

I just described my older sister and how she acted toward me when she heard me attempt the 3rd movement of the Moonlight sonata in the early days of my pianistic youth.

But when she heard me play the first and second movement at other times, the look on her face... She didn't say anything (at least not after she told me what those markings I didn't understand were: naturals, flats, and sharps).  Yes, my theory was severely lacking in the beginning.  The point was, when she heard me (play those right notes), she couldn't say anything.  I can remember that look the first time.  Perhaps jealousy?  Even a bit of inferiority?  She never played with such expression.

She was never the musician.  Just the pianist.
I was always the artist, and found a new mode of expression.

She doesn't say anything anymore.   (<--- should be a smirk).  She may have a larger technique base but she doesn't have much of a musical base.  And now let me gloat:  I rule!


See, those pieces that you have already learned were some of my beginning repetory.  I'll admit that in the beginning, I thought that to play the piano, all I had to do was hit the right notes at the right time.  Experience has shown me it's not about that hitting the notes at the right time but the music (though hitting the right notes at the right time really helps almost all the time, hehe).  But after this early phase, I became solely focused on the music that I was able to create.  It was the music, not what was written on the pieces of paper, that guided how I played.  Though my piano teacher disagrees heavily on this criticising my technique but worse, my expression! :-/  (By the way, I don't pay attention when she tries to show me expression.  I've heard my sister play.   )  But I agree with her when she criticism my technique.

But then you asked if it were possible to play la campanella, HR2, et Rach 2.  Clearly, you've actually listened to piano music!  Most children never hear another piano making noise until they are much older and their favourite advanced tunes just so happen to be Chopsticks and Happy Birthday.  My god!  Just look at his virtuosic Chopsticks!  I've never heard Chopsticks played so well before!  MY GOD!  We have a Liszt in the making!

Point is this: most children never hear another person play on the piano what we consider advanced repetory.  They, after 3 or 4 years, are still learning from Children's Books (you know, with the pretty pictures on each page!)  What they aspire to be as a pianist never comes from these picture books.  Until they grow up and are self-sufficient enough to explore on their own... the cow-dung load of piano music they find and they think, I want to be able to play that.

Why do they want to play that?  Is it because they get to move their fingers really fast and all over the place?  No.  It's because the pieces you've mentioned are musically complex and most importantly, beautiful.  Who doesn't want to play beautiful music?  The unfortunate side to complex and beautiful music is that it is often the most difficult to play.  And so the musicality of these pieces are often set aside in favor to focus on the technicallity of them.  These are technically difficult pieces but not impossible to play assuming you have the minimum requirements:  10 fingers, 5 on each hand, and are capable of sufficient reach; the ability to hear; and a well-operating piano.

One point I want to make explicit:
Music is not difficult to make.  It is the constraints of the mode of making that music which causes difficulties.

Now as for the time constraint you have set yourself, to learn one or so of these pieces in under two years, can you do it?  With proper guidance, the answer is yes.  Without that guidance, the answer is still yes though there will be a lot more trial and error and even though you are able to play the notes at roughly the appropriate time, you may be lacking in the most effective technique for the purpose of making it sound the way you want it.  This goes the same if you had proper guidance but perhaps to a lesser degree.


Last thoughts:
This thread is motivating me to learn La Campanella, and the Rach 2.  I don't care much for the Hungarian Rhapsody, though (his rhapsodies aren't musically very interesting in my opinion, but darn fun to play!)

You could prove these virtuoso Chopstickers wrong and learn these pieces and play them well within your time constraints but that wouldn't be the most effective goal in the long run.  So aim to learn how to make music, then turn to them and say... "just have a listen."

Lawrence  

[willcowskitz]

Though it has always been common and acceptable for composers to "borrow" each other's melodies, I think Liszt seems to be at his best when it comes to reshaping already invented music into new forms. Paganini etudes, Totentanz, Hungarian Rhapsodies...

Considering the rhapsodies I find them musically interesting and visually (sound -> image) strongly stimulating. Its no wonder, for lot of them was actually "borrowed" from gypsies - fire, life, air and death.

[faulty_damper]

Willcowskitz,
I've been wondering why it is about his Rhapsodies I don't like.  I know it's gypsy music but it's not very musically interesting.  Is it supposed to sound that way?  I've never heard gypsy music so I don't know from my un-acquanted ear how to listen to it or what to listen to.  I just like those fast runs usually in that last part of the pieces.  I don't care much for the openings, though.

[willcowskitz]

I don't know if anyone can help you with listening to them "correctly", it might click or it might not. It is true that I listen to different composers, and genres, differently depending on what they are, so I'm trying to explain what its in here for me. Gypsy music to me sounds very emotionally charged and human, it is of Earth, Gaia, and it defines all that I am. This could be due to the connection I feel to eastern Europe, the colours of their folk customs, mentality and spirit. I just find myself from this music and it gives me satisfaction to "feel the Earth".

[newsgroupeuan]

What I want to know from more experience pianist is it possible for me in under 2 years to play pieces like , la campanella, hungarian rhapsody 2, and the rach 2

The people who have replied quite vitriolically haven't had the joys of practicing someting too hard for them.

Its not very possible.....unless something both wonderful,  and extremely unlikely happens.  It's like comparing mount everest,  to the sandpit in your nursery.

But try it!!!!!!  It's a good technique building exercise,  which tests your endurance,  wit,  technique to the full.  You won't manage it.....but it's good for you.

After all,  you never know yourself and your limits unless you test them frequently.

I never finished hr2(score had too many typos),  but I'm half way through Campanella(Once you've learned the right movement for the jumps,  things get easier, APART FROM THOSE BLASTED TRILLS!!!!!!).  Why not play stuff you like?

I'd rather be stuck on a harder piece,  more beautiful than to easily complete a mediocre easy piece.

However I am not crazy enough to try a Rach Concerto(may do one day when really bored).

If you do suceed, I will congratulate you.

After all,  life is boring without challenges to overcome.

PS. you might try Trancendal Etude 1.  It's easier than the rest of l;iszt's pieces,  and very rewarding.  The second part is harder than the first.  do it first slowly.

[xvimbi]

I started playing the piano Nov of 2003 at 16. What I want to know from more experience pianist is it possible for me in under 2 years to play pieces like , la campanella, hungarian rhapsody 2, and the rach 2

So, we have heard people smashing this idea, and we have heard people saying that people who are smashing this idea are just jealous and try to block young prodigies.

What I want to know now is:

DOES ANYONE KNOW OF ANYBODY WHO WAS ACTUALLY ABLE TO PLAY RACH2 (OR SIMILARLY DIFFICULT PIECES) IN AN ACCEPTABLE WAY 2.5 YEARS AFTER STARTING TO LEARN THE PIANO?

Maybe this is going to settle this question once and for all.

[newsgroupeuan]

You never know that you can/cannot unless you try.

Second of all,  you are asking the wrong question.

I'm serious though.  We would not be here today if we were satisfied with we have achieved.  You cannot solve a problem by cowering away from it.  

(If one were to attempt rach 3,  you would probably have to postpone it for a year or more and do excersizes,  and etudes in between)

You do agree that I am telling the truth?

[willcowskitz]

I'd rather be stuck on a harder piece,  more beautiful than to easily complete a mediocre easy piece.

Yes! That's why I skipped over the beginner level pieces, I would had lost my interest in playing piano because all the beautiful ones that I knew were difficult.

[xvimbi]

You never know that you can/cannot unless you try.

Second of all,  you are asking the wrong question.

I'm serious though.  We would not be here today if we were satisfied with we have achieved.  You cannot solve a problem by cowering away from it.  

(If one were to attempt rach 3,  you would probably have to postpone it for a year or more and do excersizes,  and etudes in between)

You do agree that I am telling the truth?

I am assuming you are talking to me.
I think you are tellig the truth, but I don't think it is relevant with respect to the question vaio posed.
I think my question is not only not the wrong question, but in fact very relevant!

Although it is true that "you never know, unless you try", one can approach vaio's question through probablilty. Simple Bayesian statistics tells me that, if nobody ever accomplished this, the chances that I will accomplish it are very slim. On the other hand, the more people there are who have accomplished this, the higher my chances. A further, refined assessment of my chances will come from looking at WHO has accomplished this and whether I think I have the same talent, dedication, whatever to achieve the same accomplishment.

The fact that nobody accomplished something can have two reasons:
1. It is impossible
2. It is possible, but nobody smart, skilled, dedicated, whatever enough has ever tried it

So, knowing how many people have tried it, and how many people were successfull will be immensely important to answer vaio's question, which was "Is it possible?".

[JK]

I think a lot of what one is capable of depends on "natural ability", if there is such a thing and how much one can develop in a short period of time. In order to play a concerto like rach2 one has to have develop a sufficient technique to cope with the technical difficulties and sufficient musicality to produce a convincing performance of it. A lot of technique, as already mentioned, comes from playing etudes and other such pieces, the element of endurance can also be an issue to consider, for example do you have the technical and psychological (by which I mean concentration) ability to play a 35minn concerto? In my opinion it is very rare for someone to be able to develop these traits in such a short period of time. Aspects such as touch of the keys and attack really only develop in time as you develop a "relationship" with the piano, finding out in the process what is possible and what isn't in terms of tone production. After all there is no right and wrong piano technique so to speak and therefore everones' has to develop in their own way depending on thier own physique, this again takes time and adjustment. Of course you don't need perfect technique to play rach2 but you do need to have a sufficiently good one to attempt it, a good and capable technique as well as good musicality comes in a way as a result of trial and error, not through the following of exact instructions from a teacher (this doesn't enable understanding to develop). It comes from the different ideas that we have as we play some of which will turn out to be correct, some wrong, this development of understanding again in my opinion takes time. Of course there are a few and I mean very few induviduals who can develop quickly such as Kissin playing both Chopin concertos when he was 12, this is where, in my opinion the contreversial issue of natural talent comes in.

I don't neccessarily think that emotional strength is so much of an issue, at a teenage age such as 16 I think one is emotional enough to be able to cope with the emotion in a rach concerto after all teenage years are highly emotional times! Having said that the more life is experienced of course feelings and thoughts about a piece will change, this is only natural. When I was 16 I set myself a goal to play rach2 by the time I was 18, I thought this was a resonable goal to achieve and I did it, with a full orchestra and everything (and no this isn't just a way of me telling that I've played rach2). The only thing was that when I was 16 I had already been playing for 12 years, and as a result had become comfortable at the piano, developed a resonable (but far from perfect) technique and had played and learnt enough about music in previous years to cope with the musical content of such a piece. Of course, as I'm sure people will point out, this is my own experience, but even playing this piece after having played the piano nearly all my life I still felt some what intimidated by it. Maybe this was because I had had an ambition to play this piece for a long time. It's possible that some people who haven't played the piano for that long don't actually know this piece or the other rach concertos as well as I did, as a result of knowing them well they had kind of obtained a status in my head as being the greatest concertos, and certainly the ones I respected and feared the most! This respect had caused me to not really consider them seriously because I felt in awe of them, this as I have tried to explain was because I knew them so well. Others who don't know them so well and who don't have this fear or respect for them will not be so afraid of attempting them, no matter what their experience level. This may as a result lead to them to attemting a piece that they are not yet ready for, this is a natural thing to do though. When I was younger I wanted to be the greatest pianist in the world straight away, I soon realised that to become a good pianist, no matter what talent you have, takes a lot of time and hard work, it is not something that can be rushed.

[newsgroupeuan]

I think you are tellig the truth, but I don't think it is relevant with respect to the question vaio posed.
I think my question is not only not the wrong question, but in fact very relevant!

Strangely we're both telling the truth.  I got a bit side tracked

We come to a conclusion.  It is possible,  but very improbable.  But feel free to experiment a bit.

[willcowskitz]

We come to a conclusion.  It is possible,  but very improbable.  But feel free to experiment a bit.

Case closed.

[airasia]

Don't listen to any of these posts.  If you're confident in your own talents, you can play whatever you want.  Nobody here knows what you're capable of.  I've played for a year and a half and learned pathetique 1st, moonlight 3rd and appassionata 3rd up to speed (among other silly, but hard pieces like video game music) just cause i was like "these pieces are great, i really wanna learn them," and i did.  I guess i had a headstart though since i already learned a lot about music when i started and played so many sports my whole life, 21 now, therefore my hands were already pretty quick and strong for these pieces.

[instromp]

Don't listen to any of these posts.  If you're confident in your own talents, you can play whatever you want.  Nobody here knows what you're capable of.  I've played for a year and a half and learned pathetique 1st, moonlight 3rd and appassionata 3rd up to speed (among other silly, but hard pieces like video game music) just cause i was like "these pieces are great, i really wanna learn them," and i did.  I guess i had a headstart though since i already learned a lot about music when i started and played so many sports my whole life, 21 now, therefore my hands were already pretty quick and strong for these pieces.

You do realize that this thread is almost 2 years old

[airasia]

You do realize that this thread is almost 2 years old

haha yeah i did after i made the post.  The reason I found it is cause it came up in a search near the top.

[gyzzzmo]

I have to say its like 99% impossible to play pieces like la campanella nicely. Maybe you can play the notes in 2 years, but it will sound like a falling trashcan.

[annoying_airhead]

I say he/she got inspired by the movie 'Shine'; most of the pieces are on the original soundtrack.  =)

[Motrax]

Interestingly enough it's been about 2 years since vaio9876 posted, so if he comes back and posts (which probably won't happen), we could find out how he's fared in the last two years.

[instromp]

Maybe someone could send him an email and see how he's doing, then maybe he might come back and reply.

[annoying_airhead]

I don't suppose you're volunteering?  =)

[jlh]

I could have done without seeing THIS thread again...!

[jlh]

... but it's still nowhere near THIS one:

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,4177.0.html

BTW, does that topic have the PF record for most replies?

[annoying_airhead]

EUrgh - that thread took the better part of the hour to read.  =)  Funny though - in a paniful way.
That thread is dead ain't it?
Second thoughts, don't answer that.