vladamir horowitz = lifeless

[matt haley]

  I respect your opinion but completely disagree
 

       his bach is awesome and full of clarity.......

       the last concert i went to,i was sat with a well known pianist here in england called andrew wild and he said he's never heard such a pianist play at such a higher leval than most of todays pianists...

  he said the petrouchka was the greatest interpretation he'd ever heard....

  ive seen kissin many times and i hear lots of music in what he plays, he is a genius just like pletnov and just because he's a strange individual people question his passion in the way he plays..

 its nonesense

     

   

[nicco]

Dont get me wrong, i was only talking about the rach 3, and that sometimes it looks like he is more interested in hitting all the notes then interpreting them. But by all means, i have heard wonderful things from kissin. I was absolutely blown away by his rach etudes, his chopin is filled with passion, liszt is no exception. truly a gifted pianist, both technically and musically.

[matt haley]

Dont get me wrong, i was only talking about the rach 3, and that sometimes it looks like he is more interested in hitting all the notes then interpreting them. But by all means, i have heard wonderful things from kissin. I was absolutely blown away by his rach etudes, his chopin is filled with passion, liszt is no exception. truly a gifted pianist, both technically and musically.

  I apologise for misunderstanding you nicco

[franz_]

Dont get me wrong, i was only talking about the rach 3, and that sometimes it looks like he is more interested in hitting all the notes then interpreting them. But by all means, i have heard wonderful things from kissin. I was absolutely blown away by his rach etudes, his chopin is filled with passion, liszt is no exception. truly a gifted pianist, both technically and musically.

I haven't read the whole topic, but about the Rach 3, Rachmaninoff himself said that nobody plays his concerto so good as Horowitz, 'even better than myself' he said.

[franz_]

 Why don't you post this drivel over on the chopinfiles forum and see what kind of response you get.  

koji

Which is the website? A year ago I was a member there but the site disappeared. When I now want to go to the site I see sum Polish information about Chopin. But no forum.

[tompilk]

From my previous post that should be pretty clear, no?

Kissin hits, amazingly enough, 99% of the notes, but OMG its so boring! Horowitz hits like 85%, but every note is so passionate, every phrase is labeled "horowitz quality", he does these "magical" things that makes your eyes and ears not leave the screen for a second. He brings the music to life (Ironically enough from the topic title)

he is totally out at the end of the vid of rach 3 - but ask yourself: do i really care? It is similar to the quality/quantity argument... Id rather have 50% notes and 100% pure music how it is supposed to  be played (modestly, i think with rachmaninov) than 100% notes and 0% musicality...
I say musicality rather than emotion becuase rach was not as emotional as i first thought... it is suposed to be played "modestly" in my opinion and from what I have heard...
Tom

[alejo_90]

Just listen to Kissin's recordings of any concerto or piece, and compare it to another great pianist like Horowitz, Arrau or Gilels. You can note the difference inmediately, you'll like the other pianist more than Kissin.

IMO, Kissin has one of the most 100% perfect techniques among all the pianists that ever lived, but he's just plain boring. I read in other topic that his La Campanella is amazing. Whereas he plays 100% of the notes with amazing speed, he seems like a performing metronome. He is rather unexpressive, very cold.

EDIT: And saying that Lang Lang is an MUSICALLY extremely talented pianist... that just IS ignorance.

Best Wishes
Alex

[stevie]

And saying that Lang Lang is a extremely talented pianist... that just IS ignorance.

nope, just about anyone can recognize that he is an extremely talented pianist, its ignorant to think otherwise. the only thing that is questioned is what he does with this talent, and how intelligently and intuitively he expressed his musicality....this is up to opinion.
but its just downright ignorant to ignore his talent.

[alejo_90]

nope, just about anyone can recognize that he is an extremely talented pianist, its ignorant to think otherwise. the only thing that is questioned is what he does with this talent, and how intelligently and intuitively he expressed his musicality....this is up to opinion.
but its just downright ignorant to ignore his talent.

Don't get me wrong, of course I know he has a monster technique. My point was that musically, I don't think he is talented at all.

Best
Alex

[orlandopiano]

From my previous post that should be pretty clear, no?

Kissin hits, amazingly enough, 99% of the notes, but OMG its so boring! Horowitz hits like 85%, but every note is so passionate, every phrase is labeled "horowitz quality", he does these "magical" things that makes your eyes and ears not leave the screen for a second. He brings the music to life (Ironically enough from the topic title)

Not all Kissin's recordings are boring. His Carnegie Hall debut and Liszt etudes/Schumann discs are amazing. I also love his Rach 3 disc despite the dreadful tempo in the 1st movement. I've come to hate his Chopin stuff, except for the Concertos which he did when he was a kid.

I like Horowitz, although I think there are a handful of pianists from his generation who were better.

[shoenberg3]

In that case you must have serious issues

Does anyone find this post bit unsettling? Like replying to a two-year old post as if it were two days old...

[matt haley]

Does anyone find this post bit unsettling? Like replying to a two-year old post as if it were two days old...

 Nope,only you my friend............. 

[da jake]

But seriously? What's up with resurrecting ancient threads to bash Horowitz? Creepy.

[kriskicksass]

Horowitz was a god among men. His wrong notes were meaningless; like Liszt, wrong notes were a product of carelessness, not deficient technique. Pianists who can't appreciate Horowitz are obviously stuck in the idea that fast and loud = good. (And if Horowitz isn't fast and loud enough for you already... )

[orlandopiano]

Rachmaninoff himself said that nobody plays his concerto so good as Horowitz, 'even better than myself' he said.

Uhh... Rachmaninoff died in 1943. There've been some incredible Rach 3 performances that he didn't hear.

[da jake]

Did you ever consider that Rachmaninov was a decent pianist himself and possessed the mental faculties to judge the performances of his own work? 

Why the hell should the year of Rachmaninov's death invalidate his opinion? That's so retarded. Your snide little comment is insulting to two of the greatest musicians of the 20th century as well as embarassing to yourself.

[orlandopiano]

Did you ever consider that Rachmaninov was a decent pianist himself and possessed the mental faculties to judge the performances of his own work? 

Why the hell should the year of Rachmaninov's death invalidate his opinion? That's so retarded. Your snide little comment is insulting to two of the greatest musicians of the 20th century as well as embarassing to yourself.

Why is it snide? Simply pointing out he passed in 1943, so he likely didn't hear much of Gilels, Richter, and obviously Argerich, Kissin etc. You don't think he'd be impressed with Horacio Gutierrez's Rach 3?

[soliloquy]

Richter never played the third concerto.  He made a huge deal about never playing that piece.


From here on out any comment you make in this thread will be deemed retarded without prejudice, by default.

[orlandopiano]

Richter never played the third concerto.  He made a huge deal about never playing that piece.


From here on out any comment you make in this thread will be deemed retarded without prejudice.

You're right, was thinking of his Rachmaninoff output in general. But still, he is known as arguably the best Russian pianist of his generation.

You've obviously missed my general point.

[da jake]

Rachmaninov was quite familiar with the playing of such massive figures as Barere, Moseiwistch, Hofmann, Lhevinne, Friedman, Godowsky, Horowitz, Schnabel etc. He was friends with many of them.

To discredit Rachmaninov's praise of Horowitz is wrong on many levels.

I think Argerich and Kissin are a class WAAAY below the people I mentioned above. I can say with a great deal of confidence that Rachmaninov would not be impressed with their empty-headed performances of his music.

[alejo_90]

Rachmaninov was quite familiar with the playing of such massive figures as Barere, Moseiwistch, Hofmann, Lhevinne, Friedman, Godowsky, Horowitz, Schnabel etc. He was friends with many of them.

To discredit Rachmaninov's praise of Horowitz is wrong on many levels.

I think Argerich and Kissin are a class WAAAY below the people I mentioned above. I can say with a great deal of confidence that Rachmaninov would not be impressed with their empty-headed performances of his music.

I must completely agree with you da jake.
My favourites are Horowitz-Reiner, and Gilels-Cluytens.

Best
Alex

[da jake]

Horowitz with Reiner is my favorite as well.

[orlandopiano]

Rachmaninov was quite familiar with the playing of such massive figures as Barere, Moseiwistch, Hofmann, Lhevinne, Friedman, Godowsky, Horowitz, Schnabel etc.

I'd pick Horowitz over all those as well. But that was the 30s and 40s. A lot has happened in Rach 3 Land since then.  You can call Argerich's and Kissin's empty headed, but theirs are more technically astounding than Horowitz', and I think that alone would impress Rachmaninoff. 

[da jake]

LOL. The only person in the list of people that actually recorded Rach 3 is Horowitz.

Anyway, I can assure you that Rachmaninov would not be all that impressed by Kissin and Argerich. Everyone I mentioned - including Rachmaninov himself -  had BIG techniques. The only difference is, they were endowed with much more talent than Kissin, Argerich, Lang, Li, Sokolov, Pollini, Perahia etc. and were able to use their techniques to produce music of a greater quality.

[orlandopiano]

LOL. The only person in the list of people that actually recorded Rach 3 is Horowitz.

I am aware of this. I was responding to those people because you listed them. I was assuming you were speaking in general terms. But if instead you were simply trying to bait me in, well nice try smartass.

Anyway, I can assure you that Rachmaninov would not be all that impressed by Kissin and Argerich.

And I can assure you that you can have no idea how someone who died over 60 years ago felt about a pianist or performance that didn't exist at the time.

[da jake]

If Rachmaninov is known to praise performers of a high musical and artistic standard, why can't we say that he would be less impressed by something of a lower musical and a lower artistic standard?

Or are you going to try and argue that Kissin is better than Hofmann? Argerich better than Lhevinne? Lang Lang better than Barere?

I thought not.

[orlandopiano]

If Rachmaninov is known to praise performers of a high musical and artistic standard, why can't we say that he would be less impressed by something of a lower musical and a lower artistic standard?

What you consider a low musical and artistic standard is your opinion.   To assume there's not one single pianist since the 1940s that would impress Rachmaninoff more than Horowitz is a gigantic assumption.

Or are you going to try and argue that Kissin is better than Hofmann? Argerich better than Lhevinne? Lang Lang better than Barere?

You're talking about pianists who put musical substance over technical wizardry, then you go and bring up Barere? That's pretty funny.

[da jake]

I think Barere was one of the supreme masters of virtuoso repertoire - at a musical and emotional level.

Hear for yourself.  I don't think anybody will ever play Islamey or Blumenfeld Left-hand Etude as well as Barere.

[orlandopiano]

I think Barere was one of the supreme masters of virtuoso repertoire - at a musical and emotional level.

Hear for yourself.  I don't think anybody will ever play Islamey or Blumenfeld Left-hand Etude as well as Barere.

I've heard enough Barere for me to safely say he put speed and pyrotechnics ahead of musical substance. He's impressive, but a very poor choice for your earlier argument.

[da jake]

Nobody who has heard the middle section of his Islamey or his Liszt Sonata can say he was an inferior musician.

[orlandopiano]

Nobody who has heard the middle section of his Islamey or his Liszt Sonata can say he was an inferior musician.

I didn't say he wasn't a good musician. I said I think he cared more about impressing with his speed and pyrotechnics than he did about musical substance. Not always, but most of the time.

[nicco]

orlando is probably right in this case, you dont know how rachmaninoff would have responded to todays "perfect" recordings of his 3rd concerto. After all, todays pianists have all listened to both rachmaninoff and horowitz's interpretation of the concerto, and have a general idea of how it should be played. Starting to compare pianists of this time and in the 1940s is more a matter of individual taste, and shouldnt be used as an argument.

[stevie]

I didn't say he wasn't a good musician. I said I think he cared more about impressing with his speed and pyrotechnics than he did about musical substance. Not always, but most of the time.

but its strange how he manages to impress with his virtuosity while at the same time producing awesome interpretations, how is there anything wrong with this.

aside from this, i agree jake is full of sh*t.

[matt haley]

aside from this, i agree jake is full of ***.

  Let me be the first to agree with that.........  He talks absoulute bu****it!!   

[da jake]

matt haley's position: Vladimir Horowitz was a lousy musician
Orlandopiano: Rachmaninov's praise of Horowitz is a bit meaningless considering he died in 1943, and had not heard versions by Argerich, Kissin and others
Jake's position : Horowitz was one of the greatest musicians of the 20th century and the praise of Rachmaninov, one of the greatest composers and pianists of the 20th century, should be taken seriously (regardless of the year of the composer's death).
Stevie's position: Lang Lang is a great musician?

I challenge you to find one DECENT recording of Lang Lang or one that matches the excitement of Barere.

Hmm...for some reason, your guys' agreement that I'm full of sh*t sounds a bit empty. Maybe it's the fact that you take ridiculous positions. Out of the people with arguments, only Orlando and I have taken time to develop them and argue them. You and matt are just demonstrating a high level of oafistry.

[soliloquy]

matt haley's position: Vladimir Horowitz was a lousy musician
Stevie's position: Lang Lang is a great musician?

I challenge you to find one DECENT recording of Lang Lang or one that matches the excitement of Barere.

Hmm...for some reason, your guys' agreement that I'm full of sh*t is a bit empty. Maybe it's the fact that you take ridiculous positions

Aww Jake you know I still love you

Why are you even wasting your time here?  Matt's obviously mentally deficient.  You don't argue with those kind of people; it's like arguing with 2 year olds.

[da jake]

 - Done IB.
 - Too lazy to study for BC provincials.
 - SDC has gone to sh*t
 - Too sick to play piano (have some sort of weird sore throat and nose thing)

 

[matt haley]

matt haley's position: Vladimir Horowitz was a lousy musician
Orlandopiano: Rachmaninov's praise of Horowitz is a bit meaningless considering he died in 1943, and had not heard versions by Argerich, Kissin and others
Jake's position : Horowitz was one of the greatest musicians of the 20th century and the praise of Rachmaninov, one of the greatest composers and pianists of the 20th century, should be taken seriously (regardless of the year of the composer's death).
Stevie's position: Lang Lang is a great musician?


Hmm...for some reason, your guys' agreement that I'm full of sh*t sounds a bit empty. Maybe it's the fact that you take ridiculous positions. Out of the people with arguments, only Orlando and I have taken time to develop them and argue them. You and matt are just demonstrating a high level of oafistry.

  When did i say he was a lousy musician......i said horowitz was a great pianist and i adore some of his recordings but i still thinks some of his performances lacked substance and made the firm point that if you think evgeny kissin is boring and not musical then maybe you are deaf.....

  i respect your opinion jake,dont get me wrong,i only disagree with some of your points....

 

Aww Jake you know I still love you

Why are you even wasting your time here? Matt's obviously mentally deficient. You don't argue with those kind of people; it's like arguing with 2 year olds.

   but for soliloquy to make personal comments shows he must be mentally retarded

   he hasn't taken the time to read the majority of the posts, and just wants some confrontation..

         ..........very sad

  some people forget these threads are for opinions,  which primarily should be respected...

   I openly apologise for my verbal comment jake

  M . Haley

       

[Kassaa]

  When did i say he was a lousy musician......i said horowitz was a great pianist and i adore some of his recordings but i still thinks some of his performances lacked substance and made the firm point that if you think evgeny kissin is boring and not musical then maybe you are deaf.....

  i respect your opinion jake,dont get me wrong,i only disagree with some of your points....

 
   but for soliloquy to make personal comments shows he must be mentally retarded

   he hasn't taken the time to read the majority of the posts, and just wants some confrontation..

         ..........very sad

  some people forget these threads are for opinions,  which primarily should be respected...

   I openly apologise for my verbal comment jake

  M . Haley

       

You are a bit dumb.

[thracozaag]

Uhh... Rachmaninoff died in 1943. There've been some incredible Rach 3 performances that he didn't hear.

  None that approach Horowitz/Barbirolli, Horowitz/ Rodzkinski, or the two Kapell performances, for me.

koji

[m4ul]

Yo Matt dude,

regardless of what I think of Horowitz, the only thing that actually is lifeless, is your brain.

[mephisto]

da Jake has some good point, but it is obvious to me that he is going through a fase where old-time pianists are better than current pianist just because they are dead. I am sure of it. To me there is no difference: There are good and bad things about all generations of pianist and you can find amazing pianists from all times.

[minor9th]

Isn't it wonderful how music is so subjective, and everyone is entitled to their own opinion? (Even if it's the wrong one!!!!  )

As they say, opinions are like assholes: everyone has one (but some smell worse than others...)