chopin ballade no. 1 in g minor, pieces to study before

[pianobee]

Hello!
Which pieces by Chopin do you think are essential to study before tackling chopin's ballade in g minor?

[nanabush]

There's no 'essential' piece; I'm sure out of the thousands among thousands of people who have actually played this began with different repertoire.

You'd probably need to be at least at the level of playing some of Chopin's etudes, all of his walztes, most of his preludes (16, 19 and 24 IMO have some stuff that is harder than the Ballade).  If you look at those pieces and are overwhelmed, then you'll need to learn some more stuff before jumping to the Ballade.

Bach preludes and fugues, a sonata or two, etc.  There's a ton of stuff that would be worth your while looking at before playing the ballade.  If you have only been playing for like two years and are fast tracking, you'll probably die at a few spots in this 

[jbmorel78]

Dear Pianobee,

If your teacher and you believe that it is time for you to study this piece, play it directly!

It would be helpful to be familiar with the particular musical language via some of Mr. Chopin's other work, even if only by ear, such as the nocturnes, preludes, waltzes, mazurkas, and so forth...

Best wishes,

Jean-Baptiste Morel

[prongated]

...frankly, if one needs to ask questions like that, I tend to think one's not up for it...

[jbmorel78]

...frankly, if one needs to ask questions like that, I tend to think one's not up for it...

What a flippant and moreover, useless, answer to a perfectly legitimate question...

JBM

[prongated]

What a flippant and moreover, useless, answer to a perfectly legitimate question...

JBM

Then explain how learning certain pieces qualify you to learn another.

[john11inc]

Then explain how learning certain pieces qualify you to learn another.

Would you try to play the Hammerklavier without ever having played another piece from the classical era?  Perhaps expand your repertoire from merely Scarlatti to include the Liszt Sonata?

[prongated]

Would you try to play the Hammerklavier without ever having played another piece from the classical era?

...surely not, but hey, isn't it a ridiculously impossible scenario to be up to learning the Hammerklavier without ever playing a piece from the classical era? (Unless for some strange reason all one learns on the piano right from the beginning is, say, 20th/21st century repertoire.)

Anyway, the thing is, I'm not necessarily up to playing the Hammerklavier just because I've played a few of Beethoven's other sonatas. There are challenges in said work (for example, holding the whole piece together as one work) that aren't as prevalent or just don't exist altogether in his other sonatas. It may be helpful to learn of Beethoven's other works of course, but generally it's nothing you can't achieve by familiarising yourself with his other works in terms of understanding the style. (So as regards the OP's case, I agree with everyone's suggestions regarding familiarising oneself with Chopin's other works.)

Essentially, my point is, your ability (for example, ability to present a convincing overall structure of the work) to give a satisfactory performance of the Hammerklavier (or any other big pieces) are related to your development as a pianist and musician, and not by what pieces you have learned in the past. Therefore, the question, "what pieces to learn before playing Chopin's Ballade", is not the right one to ask - and for me, shows a level of musical understanding/thinking that is not yet capable of presenting a good performance of the said work (hence my initial reply).

Perhaps expand your repertoire from merely Scarlatti to include the Liszt Sonata?

Huh? I don't get your point here.

[jbmorel78]

Then explain how learning certain pieces qualify you to learn another.

Dear Prongated,

I don't view people as being qualified or not to learn a piece, but I do think that with many masters, it is helpful (though not absolutely necessary) to have a wider view of their oeuvre before proceeding.  

Regarding what John said about Beethoven, I think it is a valid point, and I would even extend it to studying other Beethoven sonatas first.  Of course, one could study directly op. 106, but one's understanding would be different than if one were to have studied an early and middle Beethoven sonata first, and different again if one were to have studied perhaps some Haydn or Mozart as well.  It is not that these are prerequisites, but rather, that they enlighten the interpretation.

That having been said, it is clear that Chopin's language is new to our topic poster, and he/she wishes to understand him from as many sides as possible, and for this reason, I don't think it is appropriate to reprimand him/her for being thorough.

Let's not look at this in terms of qualifications, but in terms of what can help us to create the best art.

Best wishes,
Jean-Baptiste Morel

[thalbergmad]

What a flippant and moreover, useless, answer to a perfectly legitimate question...

JBM

It is a perfectly legitimate question, but this one is as impossible to answer as the many hundreds of similar questions that gets asked here, given the amount of information in the initial post.

I believe that we must forge our own path to where we wish to get and to give someone else direction without first hand witnessing their playing and development, could be counter-productive.

Thal

[jbmorel78]

this one is as impossible to answer

Dear Thal,

With the regard to your first point, I believe that though we cannot answer completely, it is worthwhile to try.  Those who do not have the time to answer in earnest are of course not obliged to do so.

I believe that we must forge our own path to where we wish to get and to give someone else direction without first hand witnessing their playing and development, could be counter-productive.

I agree with you, however, my initial reply did begin by deferring to her teacher.  Secondly, the type of advice I offered is hardly the contentious type that would stunt one's development, in spite of level, and I frankly cannot see, regardless of the student, how a broader knowledge could be counter-productive in this matter...

Respectfully,

Jean-Baptiste Morel

[john11inc]

Huh? I don't get your point here.

It's identical to the other example.  I'm not sure I understand how you could get one and not get the other (assuming you got the first one).

It would be the same as reading Willa Cather all your life.  Willa Cather is the only author you have ever read; reading her works is how you learned to read; you don't read newspapers, you don't read crawls on the news, you don't read food labels.  So, the only context you have, in the field of reading, is Willa Cather.

One day you decide you want to read something besides Willa Cather.  You choose Finnegans Wake, The Waves, The Blah Story and Naked Lunch.

You don't see a problem here?

[prongated]

...it is helpful (though not absolutely necessary) to have a wider view of their oeuvre before proceeding.  

...

It is not that these are prerequisites, but rather, that they enlighten the interpretation.

Agreed.

That having been said, it is clear that Chopin's language is new to our topic poster, and he/she wishes to understand him from as many sides as possible, and for this reason, I don't think it is appropriate to reprimand him/her for being thorough.

Let's not look at this in terms of qualifications, but in terms of what can help us to create the best art.

I am not reprimanding the OP at all. I am simply saying (guessing, rather) that s/he is not up to doing something like Chopin's Ballade. So in other words, if indeed the OP is looking to, as you say, "create the best art", my suggestion is to choose another piece to learn (and not necessarily by Chopin) while the OP grows in musical understanding, technical ability...which are of course developed not just by practising and learning pieces.

It's identical to the other example.  I'm not sure I understand how you could get one and not get the other (assuming you got the first one).

Oh. OK. If it's identical, I stand by what I said in the earlier post.

Essentially, for sure that a familiarity with the composer's style of works is important in a satisfactory performance of the composer's work, but there is more to it - namely the performer's musical developement. Otherwise, I simply think as futile such thoughts as "OK, I want to learn Schubert's B-flat major sonata D960, but my teacher thinks I'm not up to it yet, so I'm going to learn Schubert's ... so that in a few years' time I'm ready for the big sonata!"

[slow_concert_pianist]

The World works in mysterious ways! I started on Schubert's D960...but that's another story.

Finding references to aid performance is the sign of a dedicated student, however this is best done in conjunction with studying the targeted work. The example is Cortot, who wrote his own finger dexterity exercises in order to approach the Chopin's Op25 set of etudes effectively.

I think that this Ballade is ostensibly a grande mazurka or valse in principal (rhythmically different, but conceptually the same). Too many concentrate on playing the fast sections of this work far too fast and miss the point of the required great lyricism. Pick a selection of mazurkas and valses and you have some understanding of how Chopin "thinks" musically.

Many would argue that the 3rd Ballade is easier to play (slightly) so that would act as a nice stepping stone.

[jbmorel78]

I think that this Ballade is ostensibly a grande mazurka

I'm sorry, but... what???

JBM

[slow_concert_pianist]

I'm sorry, but... what???

JBM

Think 'beyond' Chopin & then go back. If you have a musical mind, you will comprehend what I have said. If you don't have a musical mind ignore it, for what I have said will always baffle you.

[jbmorel78]

Think 'beyond' Chopin & then go back. If you have a musical mind, you will comprehend what I have said. If you don't have a musical mind ignore it, for what I have said will always baffle you.

Pardon me, dear oracle, but there is nothing to do with mazurka in the first ballade except for the fact that the meter is a multiple of three!

With regard to the second and third sentences of your post, you can leave your messianic declarations at home.

JBM

[slow_concert_pianist]

Pardon me, dear oracle, but there is nothing to do with mazurka in the first ballade except for the fact that the meter is a multiple of three!

With regard to the second and third sentences of your post, you can leave your messianic declarations at home.

JBM

Oh dear a "starched shirt" , please advise me so I can avoid any of your recordings

[pianisten1989]

Once again this forum gets way off topic, and blame one another for ignorance and bad attitude. Lovely!

Anyways! Chopin's Mazurkas are hugely underraded! If you play one op. you'll learn a lot about  playing Chopin.
I'm playing no 51 at the moment, and the coda is a total rip-off from the ballade, so maybe that one?