Learning Etudes

[darksyndrem]

I am currently working on two pieces for an audition, one of which is Chopin's Etude Op. 10 No. 12. I am not really having any problems in fingering, or getting to chords, but when I play it up to speed (probably a bit slower than "up to speed") it starts to get a bit messy. So, my first thought is to practice it slow, but I seem to be playing it fine slowly. Do you guys have any point that you learn a piece up to before you start speeding it up?

[slow_concert_pianist]

Can you play it at a slower pace? That is the question. If you have observed ALL detail, move your metronome up ONE notch and review the performance. If you don't have a metronome, get one!

That's the only advice I can give you without hearing your slow performance.

[darksyndrem]

I can play most of it at a slower pace. I only have trouble with page 4 (I'm not sure if that would be the same for most versions or not, but it's the melody with the extra notes? Like it has the B-C-C#-D-Eb-Eb part? Is this making any sense? I'm not really sure how to say where that is in the music), but I can play it fine if I slow it down a bit more than the rest of the piece. But I suppose by all detail; including every bit of pedaling and crescendos and diminuendos and all the other dynamics. Well, actually I'm afraid I won't have enough time to perfect every detail, as this is for an audition on the 6th of February.

I have a metronome, but I haven't been using it for piano. Is that a must as it is with other instruments?

[prongated]

I have a metronome, but I haven't been using it for piano. Is that a must as it is with other instruments?

Recommended. So many (especially younger) pianists have bad rhythm and rush all the time. A metronome can be useful to kerb those problems.

I am not really having any problems in fingering, or getting to chords, but when I play it up to speed (probably a bit slower than "up to speed") it starts to get a bit messy.

What do you mean, a bit messy? Is it just those octave melodies you mentioned, or more?

[darksyndrem]

Recommended. So many (especially younger) pianists have bad rhythm and rush all the time. A metronome can be useful to kerb those problems.

I would agree, but I'm not sure how much it applies to me (not that it doesn't apply at all). I consider myself a younger pianist, but I did play for about 5 years before about a five year break (I'm 17 now, and started at an early age. I feel it's safe to say that I'm fairly natural as far as hand posture that kind of thing). And I also play a lot of other instruments, for which I use a metronome. I haven't been using the metronome for piano because I usually get frustrated with it. I'm guessing this is because I'm playing a lot more complicated rhythms now, and have a hard time getting it to a certain bpm? I will try a little bit faster, it's possible that 80bpm (the version I have is written for 160bpm) seems to sluggish.

What do you mean, a bit messy? Is it just those octave melodies you mentioned, or more?

It's the octave melodies and the triplets on top of the 16th notes that have to be slowed down much more than the rest of the song to get, but I think after playing it more (slowly) I can get the hang of it pretty fast. Other than that, I have the occasional slip and my finger slides off the Eb (in the left-hand) to E.

[prongated]

Actually, as regards the metronome...I never really practised Chopin Etudes with metronome, although I usually do practise occassionally with metronome on many other pieces, so...you do what you do ^^

It's the octave melodies and the triplets on top of the 16th notes that have to be slowed down much more than the rest of the song to get, but I think after playing it more (slowly) I can get the hang of it pretty fast. Other than that, I have the occasional slip and my finger slides off the Eb (in the left-hand) to E.

...so, it sounds as though you will/are get(ting) the hang of it...? [otherwise it's hard to suggest how to solve anything when one doesn't know how it is presently...]

[darksyndrem]

...so, it sounds as though you will/are get(ting) the hang of it...? [otherwise it's hard to suggest how to solve anything when one doesn't know how it is presently...]

I understand it's impossible to solve any problems without knowing what it sounds like (me playing it of course). But I really just wanted to ask how much you practice an etude slowly, before you start speeding it up. Or if you just let speed come as it comes?

[prongated]

Oh...well, honestly, I'm probably not the best example as regards what to do with this piece...many years ago I learned it in 3 days and played it in a masterclass conducted by a famous Chopin musicologist...needless to say, he wasn't pleased by what he heard...at all

Anyway, I constantly looked back at it sporadically and decided to learn it properly recently. Right now it is firmly a part of my competition warhorses. Throughout the latest learning process, I actually find that by prioritising musical aims first and foremost, one will achieve a pleasing result and will eliminate many technical problems. So that's my tip to you: worry about the kind(s!) of sound that you want in the LH...worry about the melodic phrasing...work on achieving them on the piano. That's how I'd approach working on that RH passage you mentioned you had some problems with. Not the other way around (that is, worry about playing all the notes correctly and up to speed).

Of course, the ground works are important as well. To finally answer your question, yeap I spent time practising the LH with/out the pedal in dotted rhythms, then slowly with different articulations. But it's all done not in order to achieve a certain speed, but rather, to achieve certain musical goals, of which speed is but only a part of. Trust me: with this piece, you will get the desired result by thinking musically, not technically!

...just my 1am 2 cents ^^

[darksyndrem]

Oh...well, honestly, I'm probably not the best example as regards what to do with this piece...many years ago I learned it in 3 days and played it in a masterclass conducted by a famous Chopin musicologist...needless to say, he wasn't pleased by what he heard...at all

Anyway, I constantly looked back at it sporadically and decided to learn it properly recently. Right now it is firmly a part of my competition warhorses. Throughout the latest learning process, I actually find that by prioritising musical aims first and foremost, one will achieve a pleasing result and will eliminate many technical problems. So that's my tip to you: worry about the kind(s!) of sound that you want in the LH...worry about the melodic phrasing...work on achieving them on the piano. That's how I'd approach working on that RH passage you mentioned you had some problems with. Not the other way around (that is, worry about playing all the notes correctly and up to speed).

Of course, the ground works are important as well. To finally answer your question, yeap I spent time practising the LH with/out the pedal in dotted rhythms, then slowly with different articulations. But it's all done not in order to achieve a certain speed, but rather, to achieve certain musical goals, of which speed is but only a part of. Trust me: with this piece, you will get the desired result by thinking musically, not technically!

...just my 1am 2 cents ^^

That's perfect! Since, I'm musical not technical

Any other tips you or anyone else has would be much appreciated : D

[slow_concert_pianist]

I think I need to add some more as this has gone "off track".

The Op10 no12 is packed full of detail. The octave cross rhythms are the least of the performers worries. Indeed if you cannot manage that cross rhythm effectively, this is not the work for you!

Most struggle with the modulation passage about bar's 30+, but notice the legatissimo for the opening left hand run(s). There is a contraction as Chopin has ascribed accents on the first of every group of 4. Therefore the executor (performer) must be especially careful in assuring the right balance. In stark contrast, the same identity appears in both hand ascribed con fuoco or "with fire".

Referencing similar markings for his Ballade 2 and Prelude 16, Chopin expects the performer to open the tank and throw everything at his con fuoco's. Added to the crescendo and sempre f, this is building to an enormous climax. In effect this is a study of the interplay of the subtlety between the delicate (legatissimo) and absolute power (con fuoco).

My advice to you darksyndrem is you review how you play this work up to the first "sempre f", but this time you consider every single note and pay particular attention to the opening legatissimo. Invest in a metronome and start at a 60 crotchet pace. That is real slow, but it will give you a chance to comprehend the real balance required to effective performance. The hardest music to play is soft and fast. Managing staccato, accents, slurs and other dynamic considerations adds to the nightmare of rehearsal. But we know it is all worth it when the performance is right!

[darksyndrem]

I think I need to add some more as this has gone "off track".

The Op10 no12 is packed full of detail. The octave cross rhythms are the least of the performers worries. Indeed if you cannot manage that cross rhythm effectively, this is not the work for you!

This might be the least helpful thing you could have said. If some one cannot play a rhythm after a few days, the last thing they should do is give up or pick another piece. I'm staying with this Etude, there are no questions in that.

Most struggle with the modulation passage about bar's 30+, but notice the legatissimo for the opening left hand run(s). There is a contraction as Chopin has ascribed accents on the first of every group of 4. Therefore the executor (performer) must be especially careful in assuring the right balance. In stark contrast, the same identity appears in both hand ascribed con fuoco or "with fire".

Referencing similar markings for his Ballade 2 and Prelude 16, Chopin expects the performer to open the tank and throw everything at his con fuoco's. Added to the crescendo and sempre f, this is building to an enormous climax. In effect this is a study of the interplay of the subtlety between the delicate (legatissimo) and absolute power (con fuoco).

You...you lost me on that.

My advice to you darksyndrem is you review how you play this work up to the first "sempre f", but this time you consider every single note and pay particular attention to the opening legatissimo. Invest in a metronome and start at a 60 crotchet pace. That is real slow, but it will give you a chance to comprehend the real balance required to effective performance. The hardest music to play is soft and fast. Managing staccato, accents, slurs and other dynamic considerations adds to the nightmare of rehearsal. But we know it is all worth it when the performance is right!

I will give it a try, and see what happens. Thank you.

[prongated]

That's perfect! Since, I'm musical not technical

Ha, but no...so many pianists (regardless of musicality) fall into the trap of working at difficult passages mechanically without thinking of the problem from a musical angle. For instance, it is tempting for many to practise that octave RH passage you said you had problems in dotted rhythms with the LH, loud, soft, slow, fast, staccato etc. without thinking about phrasing. It is also tempting to hack away at the LH passages in said mechanical manner without thinking about the musical possibilities - colour, dynamic nuance...

...quite often, when we encounter technical problems, we look for purely technical solutions (so in that octave passage you had trouble with, you practise at a slower speed). I'm just suggesting that thinking musical solutions will often eradicate the technical problems too

[darksyndrem]

Ha, but no...so many pianists (regardless of musicality) fall into the trap of working at difficult passages mechanically without thinking of the problem from a musical angle. For instance, it is tempting for many to practise that octave RH passage you said you had problems in dotted rhythms with the LH, loud, soft, slow, fast, staccato etc. without thinking about phrasing. It is also tempting to hack away at the LH passages in said mechanical manner without thinking about the musical possibilities - colour, dynamic nuance...

...quite often, when we encounter technical problems, we look for purely technical solutions (so in that octave passage you had trouble with, you practise at a slower speed). I'm just suggesting that thinking musical solutions will often eradicate the technical problems too

Yeah, I think I know what you mean. I'm trying to just play it without paying attention to the technical side (though I'm not familiar with most technical..stuff) and it's working out. I still can't get that octave melody quite right, but I'm sure it's going to be fine with just a bit more practice. (I can get the one that's just C, C# and D, and I'm extremely close to getting the one right after it that adds the B). Thanks for the help, and hopefully I can get my camcorder to start working so I can post a video of me (trying to) playing it.

[slow_concert_pianist]

This might be the least helpful thing you could have said. If some one cannot play a rhythm after a few days, the last thing they should do is give up or pick another piece. I'm staying with this Etude, there are no questions in that.

The Chopin Etudes are serious works and need to be approached with open eyes. Better start with the Waltz's and work up to the Etudes is my advice to you. Sincerely.

[darksyndrem]

The Chopin Etudes are serious works and need to be approached with open eyes. Better start with the Waltz's and work up to the Etudes is my advice to you. Sincerely.

I appreciate the advice, but this is for an audition that happens to be next saturday. I don't have time to start with the waltzes.

[quasimodo]

I appreciate the advice, but this is for an audition that happens to be next saturday. I don't have time to start with the waltzes.

Sorry to say but then, you're toast.
And there's an ongoing debate that starting slow and moving up to speed is a losing approach, because that's how you're creating speed-walls.
Let WW 3 begin now... 

[slow_concert_pianist]

I appreciate the advice, but this is for an audition that happens to be next saturday. I don't have time to start with the waltzes.

Going through the "motions" doesn't mean you can play the piece. I assure you an audience would far prefer a small work played well than a large work played poorly. Arthur Rubinstein made numerous recordings of the Waltz's out of respect for the Chopin and his genre. The postumous E minor is close to a "big ticket", has only slightly less technical challenge than the "revolutionary" if that makes you feel better

[gyzzzmo]

You have to practise the messy phrases more and try to recognize the technical flaw itself so you can work on it, maybe even by doing other small excersises that are focussed on this flaw.
But make sure you dont keep playing this parts messy, its hard to unlearn bad habits

good luck,

Gyzzzmo

[banana-]

Have you tried cutting the phrases into chunks, and practicing those with the 'chord-attack' method? e.g. start by playing the chunks as chords, then slow them down. So you basically start with infinite speed and slow it down to speeds still way above the written speed. Then connect the chunks and see if that causes trouble with the fluidity. If so, practice that particular transition some more.

If you try this while keeping attention to your problem areas (clarity? equality?) with each chunk and the connection of the chunks, it might just get those phrases a bit faster and cleaner.