I don't really care too much about whether it sounds the best, as I am not competing.Hmmm...interesting...why do you play piano and practice, then?
I thought that the goal of musical practice is that the music sounds as good as possible?
And you seem to think that only competition is a reason to be really serious and diligent in one's practice?
Thanks Monk. The statement that 20 minutes is not long enough to tell if a method will work, then a few sentences later you state you doubt I will be able to play 20 minutes straight at tempo of 72 beats on metronome with 4 notes to beat. Sounds conflicting.
If I can't, I will know that method is not correct. I know what you mean about needing more time to see results, but if I feel not just a little awkward, as in doing something different, but discomfort, bordering pain, that method is not right. Testing time.
Here is my latest thoughts and discovery on this issue. My 20 minute test proved more insightful than I anticipated. After a brief warmup, I used weight and played at 72 beats with 4 notes to the beat, perfect of course. As the repetitions mounted, I felt the tension creeping up. Within 5 minutes it was noticable, with a slight feeling of discomfort. I then decided to switch to only finger movement, prepared key attack of course, and as I continued, not only was there no tension build up, it felt great. As I continued into 15, 20 minutes and above, it felt the same, no tension. I wanted to move up in speed but decided not too as this was new to me and want the muscles, or lack of them, to get used to the movement. I don't know how I can conclude anything other than using weight transference from finger to finger for fast runs is not correct, and the muscles of the hand work way too much! With fingers, as soon as the muscle contraction occurs, it ceases, and the hand feels pliable, dishrag like in a way, little effort. My theory, and I hope is correct, is that as I continue to practice like this, it will be easy to gradully move up the metronome in speed, with no corresponding increase in tension, which would explain why I have read where so many pianists move up in speed on the metronome, and I could never do it as the tension would increase as the speed would. I think the problem with the speed issue is there are so many variables, like strike note, prepared attack, weight or no weight, slow practice or fast or medium, dotted rhythmes, accents, HS vs. HT etc. WITHOUT thinking of the variable that must be a priority: how to produce the first tone! Perhaps if the priority variable is correct, then the other variables will not be as big an issue. Because of my back problem, (disks in the lower back), I did notice last night soreness in my lower back since the weight of my arm was not supported by each finger. People without my problem would most likely notice no such discomfort. I must limit my practice on account of this more than others would.
I am not sure where the tension is when I used weight at repeats of 72 beats with 4 notes to the beat. There are a number of muscles in the hand, some called interossi's or something like that and others, and it may be in the hand that I felt tension mounting, or even wrist. I kept a slight movement in the wrist to avoid this, dropping the wrist every 4th note. Had I played slower this does not happen as I already had experienced this. I was excited to find that using just the finger allowed this speed with a comfortable feeling.
There is little finger exertion when using just fingers since once the contraction occurs, it ceases, not quite as quickly as a stacatto note, but almost. Thanks for the thoughts and good wishes, and I welcome continuation of this thread and this is an ongoing experiment into cause and effect.
Now, I'm even more puzzled. The muscles in the hand are mostly assisting in flexing and releasing the finger joints as well as spreading the fingers. The thumb and the pinky have powerful muscles in the hand that do a bit more. The fingers as a whole are moved by muscles in the forearm.Again, I would have thought that using weight will just take pressure off the fingers. They still move up and down in the same way as if you would exclusively use the fingers, the only difference being that the hand is dropped somewhat. The movement of the fingers themselves should not change. It's akin to playing on a lighter keyboard. Ah, perhaps it's the constant bobbing of the hand that gives you tension, similar to what many people experience during octave runs when they don't relax the fingers that are not playing?
How can 'using weight take pressure off the fingers'? Maybe we are talking about two different things. When one uses arm weight in transfering the weight from finger to finger, the weight on one finger is constant until it is transfered to the next finger, like when walking. One takes a step and the weight of ones body is on one leg, and then is transfered to the other. In piano, it is the same with the constant weight on one finger until the next takes over. So rather than there being less tension with this method, there can only be more.
If you poise the hand over keys and don't use weight, just enough pressure to keep the key down, the hand feels much more loose, relaxed. This is a fact, not opinion.
It is opinion that this is a more efficient way to practice and play fast and smooth. Time will tell in my case with keen observation. If one is practicing and then stops on a note, then takes the other hand and lifts the finger that is holding the note down, one can tell if there is weight on the finger or not by how easy it is to remove the finger. Lots of weight, a more 'heavy' finger, as it is the weight of hand and arm as well as finger. If just using fingers, it is very light, this is obvious.
I think the form of the hand when practicing is important at this point in my observations. When my practice speed gets up to a certain point, the form of my finger(s) changes. It may straighten out in most cases. This is a sign to slow down a bit since I think it is a sign of tension. Otherwise, even though the notes are played in correct rhythm, speed will in the end by less than adaquet and the movement is not coordinated to the maximum. Just theory right now, but I think a fair theory.
Ok, there is a little misunderstanding. Your comparison with walking revealed it. I don't think it is the correct comparison. Here is why: In piano playing you are actually pushing down on the keys. The weight I think is pushing down the keys, not the finger! The finger only acts to take the weight from the previous finger, so we guide the finger horizontally to the key we want to sound. This to me is like walking, that we don't stomp our foot down to take a step, we only have the foot over the spot we want to walk to, then allow gravity to work. So we probably just disagree on this point. then: When you use method 2, you use mainly muscles in the forearm and very little muscles in the hand, because the fingers act mainly as levers. I agree the fingers act as levers with the 'finger' method, but there are I am sure many muscles in the hand that partake in this as well as in the forearm.then:When you use method 1, you use those muscles that lift the arm and/or hand (no muscle action required for dropping), and therefore you will have to use the muscles that act in method 2 a lot less.The way I see it, the muscles that lift the arm/hand would be the shoulder muscles, back, etc. To simplify this, if you put your hand on a table, then allow the weight of your arm/hand on 1 finger, say the 3rd, you can feel the work going on to hold it there. Take the other hand and put a finger under the supported hand and feel the tendon bulging. I suspect that one could hold it in this position only so long, as the working muscles would tire. You could try it for say, 5 minutes and see if you can sustain it. Lots of muscles in the hand are working say I. Then:Many people observe their fingers to flatten at high speed. I think this is inevitable to some extent. It comes from the fact that it is easier to move a finger up and down quickly at the knuckle when it is extended than when it is curved. Try it and let me know if you see the same. This is a good example of greater ease of motions in the relaxed state: When curved, the joints in the fingers are not in their equilibrium state. Moving such an arrangement is much more difficult than moving a structure in equilibrium. This is the same reason why, when you want to play with the thumb, aligning the thumb with the forearm (thumb orientation) is less efficient than little finger orientation.Not sure you are right in this one. When one is at total rest standing with the arms at their side, observe the position of the hand! Would you say the hand in not in 'equilibrium'? I think it is. And I suspect the reason the finger extends as the speed increases is a lack of 'relaxed' strength. It is possible that enough training in the correct condition had not been acheived. For example, years ago if I tried to play at the speed I can now with perfect accuracy, my fingers would have extended with a much slower speed as a result of the weakness. I think this makes sense to most people. So if that is true, it seems logical that one could continually climb the speed ladder if the conditions are correct. I may be wrong, but as I said before, time with keen observation will tell. So you are using the weight method mostly I gather? I agree that it is fun to search for the truth with others Nick
The weight I think is pushing down the keys, not the finger! The finger only acts to take the weight from the previous finger, so we guide the finger horizontally to the key we want to sound. This to me is like walking, that we don't stomp our foot down to take a step, we only have the foot over the spot we want to walk to, then allow gravity to work. So we probably just disagree on this point.
I agree the fingers act as levers with the 'finger' method, but there are I am sure many muscles in the hand that partake in this as well as in the forearm.
The way I see it, the muscles that lift the arm/hand would be the shoulder muscles, back, etc. To simplify this, if you put your hand on a table, then allow the weight of your arm/hand on 1 finger, say the 3rd, you can feel the work going on to hold it there. Take the other hand and put a finger under the supported hand and feel the tendon bulging. I suspect that one could hold it in this position only so long, as the working muscles would tire. You could try it for say, 5 minutes and see if you can sustain it. Lots of muscles in the hand are working say I.
Not sure you are right in this one. When one is at total rest standing with the arms at their side, observe the position of the hand! Would you say the hand in not in 'equilibrium'? I think it is. And I suspect the reason the finger extends as the speed increases is a lack of 'relaxed' strength. It is possible that enough training in the correct condition had not been acheived. For example, years ago if I tried to play at the speed I can now with perfect accuracy, my fingers would have extended with a much slower speed as a result of the weakness. I think this makes sense to most people. So if that is true, it seems logical that one could continually climb the speed ladder if the conditions are correct. I may be wrong, but as I said before, time with keen observation will tell.
So you are using the weight method mostly I gather?
There was this Italian pianist many years ago, I can't remember his name, mustache, good looking guy, and he played flawlessly a very fast classical piece, with fingers so relaxed, curved, looked like they were on the keys. The clarity was tremendous, the the commentator said that in his time he was the rage with his technical ability, and of course musicality.
Weight method: Arm and hand are lifted up a bit then the hand is dropped towards the keys. Fingers are only there to direct the weight to the desired spot. Muscles are used to keep the hand/fingers rigid so that the weight/force can be transferred. The weight/force itself is provided by gravity. Muscle action is required to lift the hand/arm to move the fingers to another key. This is similar to walking.
OK Xvimbi, I am worn out reading the last email. No more quotes for me.
Better to stick with observations rather than how many or what muscles are doing what, as I can't see the purpose.
Good news on todays practice. Just 2 days ago I think it was, I could not play a certain part at 80 beats on the metronome with 4 notes to the beat with the form staying the same, fingers lying on the keys waiting for depression. No problem at 72, but not 80, as I tried repeatedly. So I stayed at 72. Today after about 20 minutes of practice, tried 76 and not problem. Then 80 and no problem! Stayed there about 10 minutes, then 84, then 88, and the fingers were still where I wanted them, on the keys.
If this is how the weight method works, isn't it inevitable that the hand/arm will "bounce" on every single note? And if so, won't that slow you down?