Flat or Arched Fiingers....which is better for technique?

[go12_3]

A topic was brought up today in regards to playing piano with flat fingers.  I play with arched
fingers for the fast passages, and on the slower passages less arched. 

So I'm just curious... which is better for technique:  flat or arched fingers?  Or does it make any difference? 

[berniano]

It depends what you are trying to accomplish. For example, I use a very low, flat technique for impressionistic pieces (Ravel and Debussy both played with flat hands), and more of a rounded, firm hand position for Beethoven and running passages. Knowing how to change your hand position to produce the correct attack is key here.

The question I have concerning this topic, though, is how vital is it that we as teachers enforce rounded fingers in young students? After being taught for five years that the hand should always and only be rounded, I remember finding it very difficult to adjust to the flat fingered technique my more advanced teacher required for impressionistic pieces. I wonder if the struggle would have been less had my previous teacher not been so strict about always maintianing firm fingers.

[go12_3]

That's an interesting point you brought up here, berniano.  I was taught in my childhood to keep the fingers curved and I recall this teacher saying(it was a group class in the school I attended), "play at the tip of your fingers!" Talk about a drill sergeant!   I  was self-taught through the years until I attended college in Piano Performance.  I had a fine teacher who taught me well for the 2 years.  I was taught to use the more arched fingers for the fast and running passages, however, I was never taught to play flat fingered at all or I would loose the tone as I striked the keys.   Now I play with a less arched fingers in Debussy's pieces, when the passages are more blurred. 

I have my students arch their little fingers and  more relaxed in order for them to control their finger action as they strike the keys.   I think arched doesn't have to mean completely arched at all times.  The hand can be lowered to produce a more full sound, sinking into the keys, and the hand elevated for the fast passages.  Each pianist has to find  their own wrist, hand and finger position that they would be comfortable with. 

[pianisten1989]

It's quite easy to understand that you can move your fingers faster, and will be more sure where they will hit if ther are arched. But most of the pianists i've met think one get a more singing tone if with flat fingers. So I do the same as you do. Arched for articulated, and flat for the less articulated.

[iroveashe]

I found this topic on the subject:

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=3726.msg33426#msg33426

And there's this section on Chang's book:

https://www.pianofundamentals.com/book/en/1.III.4.2

And there's also this topic:

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=34810.msg403945#msg403945

I think the reason that some teachers completely reject flat fingers is because there's more chances of the joints collapsing, but I don't see why anyone should limit their own technique (or someone else's) past the point when they've learned how and why one should use flat and curved fingers.

[go12_3]

..

[john11inc]

DIAGONAL

[gyzzzmo]

a true piano enthousiast plays the piano with broken fingers.

[pianowolfi]

a true piano enthousiast plays the piano with broken fingers.

True. Broken fingers, broken heart, broken rib, whatever can break. But no broken keys or strings, please.
 

[pianowolfi]

Actually I find curved fingers very helpful (if not badly necessary) for scales, fast runs, fast ornaments, everything that has to do with velocity. You have more control over the tone and evenness.
Of course, if you play slower pieces or parts it's not that important. And in fast wide spread arpeggios like in Chopin's op. 10,1 it's almost impossible to keep your fingers always curved. It depends. It depends like so often on the piece, on the particular passage, on the particular player. I can just say that I feel safer playing speedy scales, runs and passagework with curved fingers. It gives me more control. I think it's because the curved position is much closer to the natural relaxed position of the hand.

[lostinidlewonder]

... I think it's because the curved position is much closer to the natural relaxed position of the hand.

The natural form of the hand is what we should strive for when playing the piano (Chopin suggested RH:E F#G#A#B LH:F F#G#A#B where the middle fingers feel like springs to the hand on the black notes). We want to limit our expansion and contraction of our hand while playing and only do so when it is absolutely necessary. We want to control single positions or movements of the hand with a singular action.

Conservation of energy when playing piano is a key point to the correct form of the hand. This is what makes things a little tough for people when watching others play pieces they might play, everyone has a different hand size and you may observe someone with a different position/flow than what yours play.

Flattened fingers allows us greater speed as we can play rapid notes with a single movement of the hand, curled fingers causes our fingers to move in more isolation however they can also feel like they are working together especially if the hand expands and contracts within movement groups where the hand does not have to move. Flattened fingers allows us to maintaining a constant shape with a more relaxed hand posture, curled fingers can cause tension when controlling larger positions. It is difficult to highlight to people this unnecessary change of the shape of the hand as often it is an extremely subtle difference between remaining in a constant shape or changing it by millimeters at a time.

In the end when you play a phrase of music it should feel as effortless as possible, generally I find curled fingers are more difficult to acquire an effortless touch, but it is important for small positions and ornamentation that you may find in Baroque music for instance.

[gyzzzmo]

If you insist that much, i'll give you abit more serious reply now.

You should try playing fast pieces like FI or even just scales with flat fingers, then you get your answer

[kitty on the keys]

Pianists----are like carpenters----we have many tools in our tool box.  There are times when you need 'curved' fingers  and times for a 'flatter hand. It is up to you the pianist to decide what will work for the music.  I teach my students, how to use both positions and show how they shape the sound and solve technical problems.



Kitty on the Keys

[cmg]

Thinking of "flat" or "curved" is the wrong conception.

Serkin once said he "pulled" the tones from the piano.  It's a STROKING action, as in petting a cat, that you need to develop, and that, in effect, is a subtle combination of curved and flat.  Yes?  Try it.

[m]

Serkin once said he "pulled" the tones from the piano.  It's a STROKING action, as in petting a cat, that you need to develop, and that, in effect, is a subtle combination of curved and flat.  Yes?  Try it.

That's interesting he said that, because usually Serkin actually had quite an ugly percussive tone. I'd think this is rather because of his very unflexible wrist. Maybe that's the reason he couldn't play Chopin...
Perhaps he just expressed his deepest wish?  

Best, M

[kitty on the keys]

CMG-----Thank you Thank You Thank You!!!!!! I absolutely agree with you. I use petting the kitty all the time. My coach, was an Adel Marcus student----and pulling the sound out of the piano was an important concept for your tone and projection.

Kitty on the keys

[ted]

I have had no technical training at all and therefore might not know what I am talking about, but as far as my own playing is concerned, thinking too much about this sort of physical thing, especially while actually playing, itself seems to produce consistently negative effects. If I just let my fingers go as they wish, stop thinking about it, i.e. let my untrained but experienced brain decide, then things usually go all right. Obviously this is not good advice in general for a beginner, but I am not a beginner and it works for me. I think I would have to make a video clip to find out exactly how flat my fingers are in any given situation; it just doesn't concern me.

[cmg]

That's interesting he said that, because usually Serkin actually had quite an ugly percussive tone. I'd think this is rather because of his very unflexible wrist. Maybe that's the reason he couldn't play Chopin...
Perhaps he just expressed his deepest wish?  

Best, M

Isn't it?  I thought so too, Marik, and for the same reasons!  I'm sure it WAS his deepest wish.  (And mine, too.)  Your Fourth Ballade is my benchmark of Chopin playing, by the way.  I hope all is well with you and your lovely wife.

[go12_3]

Thinking of "flat" or "curved" is the wrong conception.

Serkin once said he "pulled" the tones from the piano.  It's a STROKING action, as in petting a cat, that you need to develop, and that, in effect, is a subtle combination of curved and flat.  Yes?  Try it.

I think the Suzuki Piano Method does the stroking action, I saw a piano teacher demonstrate to me and it seems to be catching on in some of the studios where I live.  My students play flat and arched fingers, depends upon which key they strike.  I have observed all my students this past week and each student have different shaped hands and fingers.  I am beginning to be more aware of not stressing the arched fingers as much because the fingers do need to relax more and later on they will develop what they feel is more comfortable on playing the piano.  My 7 year old student, I noticed he'd play arched or flat and either way he is developing the skills required in playing piano at a young age.  Right now, I am keeping an open mind about this with all of my students.  However, I still like them to play well in the running passages and not loose control, but, as usual, play slowly and then increase the speed as they progress.   

[yiyiku]

this is an interesting thread with many great replies. I do agree that both ways are necessary, but in general i feel for young students, they need training with arched fingers in the initial stages, then the flattened versions will develop naturally as the music (and their hands) expands. however, it does not work so well vice versa. just my 2 cents

[m]

Isn't it?  I thought so too, Marik, and for the same reasons!  I'm sure it WAS his deepest wish.  (And mine, too.)  Your Fourth Ballade is my benchmark of Chopin playing, by the way.  I hope all is well with you and your lovely wife.

Hi CMG,

Thank you for nice words about Ballade... I am still working on it...

Indeed, all is good here and our almost 16 months little bandito (as any well-mannered boy of that age supposed to be) giving us many minutes of incredible joy!

I think the Suzuki Piano Method does the stroking action, I saw a piano teacher demonstrate to me and it seems to be catching on in some of the studios where I live.  

I think both Suzuki and Yamaha so called "methods" have no any other merrit other than complete ignorance as for what the foundation of piano technique is. It seems, their main purpose is to get money and kill any student's ability to play piano. It is very sad to see how this tendency seems to catch on in many studios all over the places. I had a few students coming from those "schools". It took years to get rid of bad habits aquired just in one semester.

Best, M

[furtwaengler]

Thinking of "flat" or "curved" is the wrong conception.

Serkin once said he "pulled" the tones from the piano.  It's a STROKING action, as in petting a cat, that you need to develop, and that, in effect, is a subtle combination of curved and flat.  Yes?  Try it.

That's interesting he said that, because usually Serkin actually had quite an ugly percussive tone. I'd think this is rather because of his very unflexible wrist. Maybe that's the reason he couldn't play Chopin...
Perhaps he just expressed his deepest wish? 

Best, M

Isn't it?  I thought so too, Marik, and for the same reasons!  I'm sure it WAS his deepest wish.  (And mine, too.)  Your Fourth Ballade is my benchmark of Chopin playing, by the way.  I hope all is well with you and your lovely wife.

Ah, but his Reger! His Reger! Is it that it is so good or is it that he was practically the only one playing it at the time? I think it is that it's so good.

I studied with a student of Serkin's and he'd often give good quotes such as, "Every technical problem has a musical answer," but also horrifying quotes such as, "I had tendinitis, but I BURNED it out." 

Surely he's not the only one to will himself through a faulty mechanism?

(Oh and Marik's 4th Ballade is legendary  )

[ramseytheii]

Ah, but his Reger! His Reger! Is it that it is so good or is it that he was practically the only one playing it at the time? I think it is that it's so good.

I studied with a student of Serkin's and he'd often give good quotes such as, "Every technical problem has a musical answer," but also horrifying quotes such as, "I had tendinitis, but I BURNED it out." 

Surely he's not the only one to will himself through a faulty mechanism?

(Oh and Marik's 4th Ballade is legendary  )

Funny, I agree with all of the above: his ugly tone, but his superior Reger.  The concerto in particular is a must-have recording.

Serkin is the one "great" pianist I always feel so blah about!

Walter Ramsey

[ramseytheii]

Thinking of "flat" or "curved" is the wrong conception.

Serkin once said he "pulled" the tones from the piano.  It's a STROKING action, as in petting a cat, that you need to develop, and that, in effect, is a subtle combination of curved and flat.  Yes?  Try it.

Incidentally, this idea is nothing new; Beethoven's contemporaries described his playing as "dusting the keys" and a student of Bach's said that in order to achieve perfect legato on the organ, he slid down the keys as he played them in succession.  This technique must be as old as keyboard playing itself.  Strange, though, how many seem ignorant of it.

Walter Ramsey

[slow_concert_pianist]

Flat fingers imply a weakness in technique. It suggests the wrist is lowered. The net effect is the performer loses control of tonal emphasis. You should with curved fingers no matter whose music perform.

[ghostgeezer]

Finger consciousness per se is risky.  Think of them as spokes on an imaginary
wheel, and play mainly through them, not so much with them. Just make sure that
there is always a sense of strong physical grounding, that the keyboard is an
active participant whose leverage is always being respected and exploited.  Try
a low wrist (Horowitz).  Think of your wrist as a baffle reference against which
you feel each and every note (Bolet, R. Casadesus), as if it were the hub of your
imaginary wheel.  It is not the only such hub.  The elbow will do, and the shoulder.

But a little dab'l do you. Don't overdo with any of this.  Don't believe what does
not work. Don't breach your range of comfort.

Explore Feldenkrais.  If nothing else, one learns from Feldenkrais
that when it comes to doing things with the body, there is always an easier, 'less is more'
way.

Liszt and Rachmaninov were big men with huge hands.  Vladimir de Pachmann and
Alicia de la Rocha could barely reach an octave.  They all played fairly well.  De Pachmann,
once asked how he could play with such tiny hands, answered, "What makes you think
I play with my hands?"

O.K.  All shapes and sizes.  That's us.  We get to choose for us as we are.  It's
a tough assignment, and everybody--just like me today, on this website for the first time--is ready with advice.  "You are doing it wrong."   We are all doing it wrong.  But it gets better, it does.  Even a blind pig sometimes finds an acorn.

John Dinwiddie
Santa Rosa, Ca
USA

[nancyjane]

Hi CMG,


I think both Suzuki and Yamaha so called "methods" have no any other merrit other than complete ignorance as for what the foundation of piano technique is. It seems, their main purpose is to get money and kill any student's ability to play piano. It is very sad to see how this tendency seems to catch on in many studios all over the places. I had a few students coming from those "schools". It took years to get rid of bad habits aquired just in one semester.

Best, M

Well, having been a Suzuki Teacher for over 30 years I'll have to admit that I have complete ignorance as to what the "foundation of piano technique" is that you are talking about. The main problem with the Suzuki students I've had is they can play so darned fast and well that I have to practice like a fiend to keep ahead of the little buggers. And then they won't admit that they can read because they prefer to play by ear.

Martha Argerich strokes the keys.  I think many Suzuki teachers went to hear her play a couple of years ago, so naturally they will be experimenting with that technique for a while at least.

Most Suzuki teachers will teach any student, even ones who can pay nothing, as I do.  And they seldom lose a student, so the transfer students would be rare.

I think it is so wonderful to be able to get DVD's so you can watch and listen to great piano players. My four year old granddaughter has been in love with Lang Lang ever since watching his Carnegie Hall Debut DVD. You can see much of it on youTube - and be amazed at what he can do with some of the weirdest hand and finger positions. Live concerts are wonderful, but you can sure get a better view from a DVD.

Anyway, I would really like to know what you consider the foundation of piano technique, and would also like to see a DVD of your playing, as I understand from reading the forum that you are very good. I was looking for your recording of Fur Elise, which I couldn't find, when I came across your (rather insulting, but possibly, partly at least, true) comment.

NancyJane

[cosz]

in my opinion the best technique ... is the technique that produces the best results !!!
( technically and musically )

the way i practice piano pieces is to brake them down to parts.

when i realized that Every part has its own unique technique my life got a lot easier!!

I dont try to force a particular technique to the entire piece, instead, i try to develop for each part MY technique, with my experience and physiology.

If you know how you want a piece to sound like .. you should manipulate your technique in order to achieve that sound !

your ears are the best teacher!!

visit
https://piano-discussions.blogspot.com/
for more piano discussions

[jinfiesto]

The abundance of technical misinformation available today astounds me. Flat or Arched fingers are really neither here nor there, and are appropriate depending on the sound you need. What's important is that the arch of the hand is supported.

For references on this see:

Lectures by Yoheved Kaplinsky
Josef Lhevinne's book
Seymour Fink's book
and more recently Alan Fraser's book/video (some of which I think is incorrect)
Barbara Lister-Sink and Taubman as well. (I also occasionally disagree with both of them)
Chopin also wrote on this, although I'm not really sure what the writing was called as I haven't read it in a while.

*This will probably start a flame war*

[richard black]

Flat fingers imply a weakness in technique. It suggests the wrist is lowered. The net effect is the performer loses control of tonal emphasis.

You see, this is where it's so personal. I play with just about the lowest wrist you could possibly imagine, but tonal emphasis is something I'm pretty confident with. (Not claiming I'm amazing at it but you've got to know your strengths as well as your limitations in this life.) Whereas a good friend of mine plays with a very high wrist and I wish I could bring myself to be more critical of her tone. But with all this stuff Your Mileage May Vary - a lot.

But anyway, you can't play with truly flat fingers, or you can't play much. And obviously it will depend a lot on what you're playing. In general, my left hand seems to like slightly flatter fingers than the right, which I attribute to the different stuff the two hands typically end up playing.

[keyboardclass]

The abundance of technical misinformation available today astounds me. Flat or Arched fingers are really neither here nor there, and are appropriate depending on the sound you need. What's important is that the arch of the hand is supported.

I really don't like this arch-of-the-hand stuff.  Where does Chopin mention it?  As some posters acknowledge, 'stroking' the key rather than 'poking' it is the more sensitive way.  If there is an arch it'll be supported during the stroke - you certainly don't need it before or after.

[ponken]

A topic was brought up today in regards to playing piano with flat fingers.  I play with arched
fingers for the fast passages, and on the slower passages less arched. 

I do the same.

[liordavid]

when i have sight-read through the schumann first piano sonata, I find it diffucult to keep my fingers arched. any suggestions?

[xxholyghostx]

Hi I choose to play beethovens spring sonata on the piano for my end of year assessment at college, but I am having some trouble with the chords in the first part. I am trying to play the chords that I see on the sheet but it doesnt sound right I don't know why. It just doesnt seem like the chords writing are the correct ones. Does anyone know the chords for this on piano? I would like to know whether I am playing the right chords or not.