Suggestions for Guidelines

[rachfan]

Hi Nils,

I've been a member of Piano Street for over seven years dating back to the time when it was called Piano Forum.  (It seems I've been here even longer!)  There have been some really good things happening here.  We have the relatively new software update running, the sheet music files continue to expand, improvisers now have their own dedicated forum, and lostinidlewonder does an excellent job in maintaining the Audition Room/Improvisation indexes by composer, just to name a few of the improvements.  

Speaking specifically of the Audition Room forum though, I believe that some stronger guidelines are needed.  Most of the members there play classical piano and take their music seriously.  But in my opinion, there are some detractors and unwanted distractions in the forum.  The environment has become "anything goes".  So now we too frequently find things like this:

There are members commandeering the front page of the forum and dumping large numbers of recordings into the forum all at once.  This prematurely forces off the page many of the members who have only a single and current recording there.

We encounter pianists who attempt to play compositions very far beyond their levels of capability, rendering totally unsatisfactory performances.

There are those who submit their "original compositions", some of which are of questionable quality from the standpoints of composition and aesthetics.

Similarly, there are some who do not do transcriptions or paraphrases, but simply bastardize classical masterworks believing that discerning members will actually enjoy such travesties that run blatantly contrary to the intentions of the masters.

Then too we're occasionally faced with recordings featuring severely-out-of-tune pianos and inadequate sound systems, thereby making listening very difficult at best.

Occasionally a posting has nothing whatsoever to do with a forum for piano recordings--like a video of a talking head giving an irrelevant lecture.

In a nutshell I believe that we should strive to improve the general quality of recordings on Piano Street by implementing some reasonable guidelines.  Yes, there are already some rules dealing with the MP3 format requirement, respecting copyrights, stating the preference for acoustic pianos over e-pianos whenever possible, etc. which are all to the good or at least necessities.  So this brings me to additional suggested "guidelines" to raise the bar higher and, hopefully, to enhance everyone's listening pleasure.

My suggestions:

The goal of Piano Street should be to encourage recordings reflecting artistry or at least an average degree of musicality.  

Pianos (preferably acoustic instruments) should be in reasonably good tune and voice when producing recordings.

Recording equipment should be at least adequate to the task, digital recordings preferred.

Original compositions to be posted should be required to always be accompanied by a score in a PDF file to be accepted.  (That will filter out compositions not reduced to score for whatever reason.)

Members wishing to post numerous recordings should phase them in over several weeks rather than in one lump.  (Or they could certainly use the additional recordings feature within a single post.)

Submissions should be limited principally to solo piano works, but may include chamber works with piano and piano concertos.

And finally, the administrators here at Piano Street would need to take a more active role in ensuring that guidelines such as these are consistently met.  In cases where that is not the case, then they should communicate that to the members involved.  In the worst cases, where recordings are clearly of very little or no merit, they should be deleted as unacceptable.

This approach would go a long way in raising the professionalism (and I include capable amateurs) of the Piano Street website.

I hope that these ideas or at least some of them will be considered.





  

[john11inc]

While I agree with you on an ideological basis, I don't agree with this idea on a pragmatic basis.  I simply don't see a way to enforce this rule, much less enforce it in an unbiased manner.  I think the general TOS covers abuse in the form of "spamming" and "irrelevant content", which seems to comprise quite a few of your examples; in this case, I think it's merely a matter of more diligence on the administration's part.  Frankly, we really need a couple more administrators; this site is just too big and too busy for two people to police, both of whom live in a time zone that is quite the opposite of the majority of the members'.  In regard to things like "sound quality" and "playing quality", I just don't see any way to police something like that.  Besides, that invites a slippery slope.  Where is the cut-off?

[furtwaengler]

Members wishing to post numerous recordings should phase them in over several weeks rather than in one lump.  (Or they could certainly use the additional recordings feature within a single post.)

Could we at least keep all the parts of a single piece in the same tread? It is an unnecessary hassle, the Beethoven and Mozart sonatas which have recently been uploaded, a separate topic for each movement, and this even more for the integrity of the piece and the performance as a whole then the fact it clogs the board. Over time the threads get separated, and it takes worked just to hook the right parts up.

In other news, Rachfan has been such a positive, encouraging bright spot on this forum, especially his marvelous labor in the audition room...I wonder if he would like to be made a moderator? If it is a service he'd be willing to do? He'd do a good job, is all I'm saying. 

[lostinidlewonder]

I don't know what happened to the idea of rating recordings with a score out of 10 or 5 stars or whatever. I remember hearing that being talked about before and it would allow us to know which recordings are worth listening to or which ones are lesser. It was the real reason why I organised the Audition Room Index by user name, because some users produce fantastic recordings and you should absolutely not miss it, but others play pretty poorly (not that it is a problem to share such things in fact poor recordings can be talked about a lot more and people can learn much more from knowing what to avoid!).

We have only 1 administrator here don't we? I mean who else but Nils is an admin? Pianostreet is rather quiet compared to other forums that I am a part of Pianostreet has a pretty slow rate of new posts, I pretty much can browse through all new posts every day. So I guess to limit the amount of posts or uploads to pianostreet would not improve much as there is not much actually coming into pianostreet comparatively.

[john11inc]

We have only 1 administrator here don't we?

Nils and Henrah (or Henrik, I forget the name).

[rachfan]

Hi John

Like you, I'm a very practical thinker.  I wouldn't have posted my suggestions unless I had actually seen evidence that they can work well.  As it happens, I'm also a member of Piano Society.  Are you familiar with that website?  The site is well-established, and there are periods when the quantity and velocity of new recordings far exceeds the volume at Piano Street.  Yet that website is far removed from "anything goes".  They have standards and enforce them remarkably quickly and effectively.  I must agree with you that sufficient monitoring is the key.  And it's not just about spamming and irrelevant content--a huge part is the quality of the recorded performances and recorded sound.  They have three admins there: a "nils" plus two admins., so they're able to cover all of their multiple forums there including their own Audition Room.  So I can attest that it works, because I've observed it up close.  

Can there be subjectivity at times in giving criticism?  Yes, of course, because no human assessment can ever be absolutely objective.  But there is also valuable input from other members in addition to the admins., although the admins. get the final say.  It doesn't take long to find consensus in those borderline cases.  On occasion is there vexation?  Yes, that can happen too.  When it comes to young pianists, I myself try to mitigate criticism somewhat and to instead provide useful tips, as I believe that older pianists have a responsibility to encourage young pianists who show potential.    

One major difference between Piano Street and Piano Society is the purpose of the Audition Room. Here, whatever goes into Audition Room stays there permanently unless it's removed for some reason.  At Piano Society, the Audition Room is truly for auditions only.  A recording is initially posted there for initial hearings.  If a recording meets site standards, then it is accepted and transferred to a permanent archive.  If a recording doesn't pass muster, then it continues to languish in the Audition Room where people can still listen to those less-than- wonderful performances.

[rachfan]

Thanks for those kind words about me.    I must say that doing the Catoire survey has been a labor of love.  His music is exceptional!

I agree with you that sonata movements should always go into a single posting (where the additional recordings feature will accommodate four recordings in all)--assuming that the entire sonata is being presented at once.  Sometimes collecting a short set of character pieces using the feature can be great too, even if they've been recorded separately over time.  It keeps them together in one place as they fade into the recesses of the back pages, and the collected set allows the listeners to hear them in the same order as the composer intended them.   

[rachfan]

Hi lost,

It seems to me that way back in the Piano Forum days there used to be star ratings under the posting name in a post, and  that the rating system could be turned on or off by the member in his or her profile.  But I could be mistaken.   Of course YouTube uses that system and it seems to work OK.

[prongated]

The goal of Piano Street should be to encourage recordings reflecting artistry or at least an above-average degree of musicality.  

...to begin with, "above-average" compared to whom? But more importantly, so if I am not above average, I am discouraged from posting in the audition room?

My suggestion, if I may, is to change that line to mean "recordings that are reflective of the best that the poster can do". This way, problems with recordings posted will generally only concern musical and/or technical problems, as opposed to just needing more practise or learning notes.

And certainly, some sort of regulation regarding the number of recordings you can post will be great. It's not just for the reasons you outline, but it's also the fact that one can only listen to so music while providing good observations. For the same reason, poker forums usually limit their users to post only 1 hand per day so as to maintain the high quality of feedbacks from other users, while ensuring that only the trickiest or most interesting problems get posted.

[rachfan]

Hi prongated,

First, please recall that I termed my suggestions "guidelines" not "rules".  That was an intentional choice or words, as guidelines are not usually considered to be as hard and fast as rules and allow for some flexibility, which I believe is an important distinction.

To answer your question, if we want to continue to have an "anything goes" site spanning the range of the touring artist to the adult beginner who has just completed five lessons and decides to present Liszt's "La Campanella" saying it's the best he can do, but it's impossible to listen to any more than the first few measures, then we don't need any guidelines.  We simply need to brace ourselves when clicking on a selection and instead of finding a gem, it turns out to be a lemon by anyone's taste.  

You hit the nail on the head with the word "goal". In reference to quality, should our goal be to allow everyone to post a recording no matter how bad, or should we--as members and listeners--expect and insist on a reasonable level of musicality?  That concept might seem elusive, but I know your fine playing, prongated, so if I were to ask you listen to five recordings and then tell me which ones display artistry, which is average, and which ones are terrible, you could sort them out easily!  But again, it's the goal that drives the objectives and guidelines, including any addressing musicality.

I agree with you that there is a difference between a lack of musicality and the need for further practicing.  There again, most professional pianists and accomplished amateurs have a good sense for that.  The former, of course, involves a lack of attention, understanding or proficiency in the fundamentals of reading, interpreting and performing, while the later is more a matter of adding polish to get a piece up to recital pitch.

You raise a good point too on the matter of spamming or presenting too many recordings in one fell swoop.  There again, a guideline might simply ask posters to phase in  the several recordings over a few weeks to spread them out a bit out of consideration for other members. I believe that most (not all) people would be reasonable about that if 1) they read the guidelines and 2) understand the rationales or "the whys" behind them.

[ted]

For what my opinion is worth on this matter, I can understand all the points rachfan makes and agree with most of them. The one reservation I have is that I would not like to see a genre split inadvertently created which somehow implied that classical performance is serious and playing of other genres not so serious. The other forum mentioned obviously strongly displays this dichotomy, and Pianoworld has actually enforced the split, a retrograde step in my view, which leaves somebody like me having to post all my recordings in the non-classical section even if they are in classical styles. Any rule about posting a pdf of a recorded composition would stand a good chance of forcing me to post an old recording under improvisations, even though I knew it was one of many things I simply failed to write out, partly wrote out, lost and so on. That's all right, but people who don't like knowing something was improvised (I never could fathom that stance but it's very common) might miss it.

This latter distinction admittedly applies to a small minority of posters, possibly just me in fact and therefore doesn't matter, but the former one would concern me. Our forum is, in general, very broadminded, and long may it remain so. I would hate to see the classical or written=serious, any other=trivial split unthinkingly written into the forum guidelines. Of course any individual member may indeed feel that equation to be true, and good luck to them, but I think they are missing out on a lot.

As others have said, who would do the judging and how ? Not me I hope, I wouldn't dare; I wouldn't be remotely qualified where classical music is concerned.

  

[symbolism of l. ron]

You're all elitists! I see nothing wrong with people posting recordings of any quality. Enforcing rules that would prevent "less than satisfactory" recordings would just scare people off. If you don't like it, don't listen to it, but don't tell others what to do or not do. If people want to improve, then they should be able to post anything online without the fear of being harshly criticized.

[prongated]

You're all elitists! I see nothing wrong with people posting recordings of any quality.

OK, so today I'm going to record myself sight-reading Rach 3. It usually takes around 40 minutes, but I may need more than that. And I don't have the score with me, so it'll all be "impressions" of what I remember of the piece aurally. How'd you like that? Or even if you don't want to listen to that, how'd you like a useless, trashy recording like that lying around in the forum?

First - point taken Rachfan - it's a guideline, not a strictly enforced rule. The story above is an exaggeration obviously (and NO way I'm going to do that!) but just highlights how low one can lower standards. Usually (as I remembered anyway) I post in the audition room only professionally recorded recitals or audition materials that I deem at least quite satisfactory, or recordings of works I need help with.

I mean, I don't mind hearing wrong notes, not-so-competent execution etc. because otherwise what's the point of audition room if all the recordings are of concert pianist standard? This place will stop becoming a learning/sharing avenue. But I think it's an absolutely good idea to avoid, if possible, recordings that sound like the piece is learned only yesterday. I mean, what's the point of posting a recording that you know you can make much better yourself by practising?

It's not elitism. It's just what a reasonable human being would expect and do - I think!

[rachfan]

Hi Ted,

Thanks for your thoughtful response.  Quite frankly your point about posting older recordings of compositions with pdf scores had not occurred to me.  But, of course, one person cannot think of every implication in offering a list of suggestions.  That's the value of gathering input from others.  I absolutely do appreciate your concern.  "The devils are always in the details", as we say.  I'm not strongly committed to the pdf idea, and if others here would want to continue the current practice, I, for one, am OK with that.  

And no, I certainly did not want to imply that original compositions by members are not serious music or are, in any way, trivial.  To the contrary, I have a high respect for the value of both compositions and improvisations and their creators and enjoy listening to many of them including yours.  (I myself have an improv posted in the Improvisations forums.  I've been meaning to do another, but just haven't gotten to it yet.  

The question of who judges is an open-ended for now.  A point made earlier is that if it is to be admins, then nils probably can't spread himself that thinly!  Lostinidlewonder had mentioned the "stars" system as a possibility as well as his listing by member name.  This one is turning out to be a tough nut to crack and definitely deserves more comments from the members to see if it is practicable or even desirable.

Thanks for chiming in.

[rachfan]

Hi symbolism,

I'm just a common man, not an elitist.    But I'm not ready yet to abandon the notion of quality of performance, at least not yet.

What do you think of this possibility?  As you know, there's a forum here at Piano Street, "Students Corner", I believe.  When someone starts a new topic there, the same options exist in the software as found in Audition Room.  So if, for example, someone were to want to post a piece they know needs A LOT of work, but also wants constructive criticism and coaching, they could perhaps post their recording there at that point in their practicing.  So they wouldn't be barred from seeking advice or opportunity for improvement, as that has never been the intent, simply posting it in the Students Corner as the place to get help.  Audition Room would be more for posting pieces that are polished or, at least, more performance ready. Understand, I'm not advocating this here, simply advancing it as an idea to get the benefit of your thinking on it as a possibility.

[symbolism of l. ron]

OK, so today I'm going to record myself sight-reading Rach 3. It usually takes around 40 minutes, but I may need more than that. And I don't have the score with me, so it'll all be "impressions" of what I remember of the piece aurally. How'd you like that? Or even if you don't want to listen to that, how'd you like a useless, trashy recording like that lying around in the forum?

First - point taken Rachfan - it's a guideline, not a strictly enforced rule. The story above is an exaggeration obviously (and NO way I'm going to do that!) but just highlights how low one can lower standards. Usually (as I remembered anyway) I post in the audition room only professionally recorded recitals or audition materials that I deem at least quite satisfactory, or recordings of works I need help with.

I mean, I don't mind hearing wrong notes, not-so-competent execution etc. because otherwise what's the point of audition room if all the recordings are of concert pianist standard? This place will stop becoming a learning/sharing avenue. But I think it's an absolutely good idea to avoid, if possible, recordings that sound like the piece is learned only yesterday. I mean, what's the point of posting a recording that you know you can make much better yourself by practising?

It's not elitism. It's just what a reasonable human being would expect and do - I think!

It doesn't matter why a recording was posted, no matter its quality. I think that the fact is that people should have the power to record whatever they like on a public forum. If you don't like it then don't listen to it. Are you asked to pay for it or to travel some distance to hear it?

[pianowolfi]

Hi rachfan

I understand where you are coming from.
However, one of the things that I cherish the most about PS is the openness to contributions from anybody. To me as a piano teacher almost everything can be of interest, and I listen to way more recordings than I comment on, just to learn from it.
I think I would miss the creativity, the chaos, the crazy stuff. Some of my favorite posts contain, among others, croaking frogs, squeaking birds, dehydrated drinking doggies, crickets, lots of hiss, a sound like an old 78 vinyl disc etc.

Of course there have been recordings that got eminently on my nerves, especially if the respective posters are resistent to any constructive criticism. But these cases are still relatively rare in my book.

I am not sure if this creative diversity will be the same after introducing new guidelines...

One more concern: if it's mandatory to post original works only together with a pdf it means that composers would have to give their music away for free, which, as I am sure, not every composer wants or can afford....

So, rather no.

I think Pianosociety has a bit a different approach as it is meant (as I understand it so far) to be a representative site for free classical music and not so much as a place to discuss and comment other's recordings from musician to musician.

[ronde_des_sylphes]

It seems to me that the recordings in the audition room broadly fall into the following categories:

1. Recordings by fully-fledged professionals
2. Recordings by students and advanced amateurs
3. Recordings by (probably untrained) amateurs

Whilst I agree that there have been some very poor recordings posted recently, we should probably grant latitude on the basis that some people probably have no access to formal training or conventional teaching, and the internet may be the only basis on which they can receive advice.

I think it would be helpful if there was some mechanism by which readers could ascertain what performance level the poster is at. Of course, sometimes it will be obvious, but surely it is the case that we should be assessing recordings within the context of the pianist's training, experience, and usual performance level? When the poster has been a forum regular, that assessment is obviously easier to make, but nonetheless, I think it would be beneficial if the poster could specify such details (possibly within the user profile).

Other points:

I agree that where the recordings posted form a greater collective entity (e.g. movements of a piano sonata) they should, where possible, be posted within the same thread.

I don't fully agree with the suggestion re posting PDFs of compositions. Firstly, from direct experience, I know I've not formally written out all the compositions I've posted. Secondly, I can understand that some members may not wish to upload PDFs of their work, for whatever reason. It certainly be nice if people did post their PDFs, but I think that should be optional, and making it compulsory runs the risk people are just going to subvert any such guideline by posting them as improvisations instead.

It would be nice if recordings considered to be especially meritorious could be marked as such (e.g. links to them placed within a sticky thread). Obviously, that would raise questions as to who judges them, but certainly there are some very fine recordings languishing in the depths of the audition room, probably unheard for some time.

[rachfan]

Hi wolfi,

Thanks for replying.  I hear you on your major points of preserving creative diversity, and the drawbacks of requiring companion pdf's to accompany original compositions.  On the latter, the downside of not having a pdf is (and this certainly does happen here) the case of someone sitting down at the piano, playing something spontaneously (more akin to an improvisation actually), being ignorant of any distinctions, and passing it off as an original "composition" in Audition Room.  It's just not authentic or accurate, and worse, if the majority of listeners find little or no merit in it, nonetheless it takes up space on the board for lack of any guidance.  The idea of the pdf was to confirm the piece as an actual notated composition.  By the way, I never suggested or implied in the guideline that the pdf had to be made available to the membership.  There might be a way where it could simply be simply viewed by an admin (if nils ever gets some help) and placed in an unaccessible file to protect the composer's rights.  I was not visualizing it as a public document per se.

On Piano Society (and I've also been a member there), I would have to disagree that it "is not so much as a place to discuss and comment on others' recording from musician to musician".  To the contrary, I believe that as recordings are posted in Audition Room there, the comments and discussions are voluminous and animated indeed, oftentimes more so than on Piano Street, and spilling over into two or three pages of comments on a particular recording!  And the admins there frequently encourage members to critique one another even more, as they should.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts on the matter.

[rachfan]

Hi ronde,

I liked your classification of pianists as contributors of recordings and your idea to include those designations within the member profiles.  Thanks for that!  Hopefully others will comment on this point as well.

Yes, there seems to be increasing support for posting movements of a greater entity within a thread to keep it all together.  Sometimes a person might wish to contribute each movement separately once completed.  A way to do that might be to start the thread with the first movement for example.  Later, when the second movement has been prepared and added, the poster could update the introductory comments and add that movement under the additional options feature, and continue on until the full work is enclosed within the thread.

On pdf's you offer more good ideas.  Please see my preceding comment to wolfi on pdfs, where I suggested that they really don't need to be accessible except to the admin. for viewing and verification as an actual notated composition.  Or, perhaps, there could be three options, with one selected by the contributor--admin. access only; access by special request and approval by the composer; or for general viewing by members.  There might be a way to keep these member composition pdfs locked within the Sheetmusic section of the site.  Concerning your scenario where one instead submits it under Improvisations, I'm comfortable with that outcome, as it would be a conscious choice made by the member.

You make an excellent point on marking especially meritorious recordings.  Lostinidlewonder gave this very topic a go several months ago, and yes, much of the discussion revolved around the judging aspect, leaving it inconclusive.  Interestingly though, he called for some nominations which he got! Moreover, nobody argued about those.  So the fact is that you're right--we have many gems hidden away at Piano Street that could and should be heard far more frequently than is now the case.  And many members would readily agree, I'm sure.  When I was trying to formulate some guidelines, quite frankly I was admittedly more focused on trying to solve abuses in the system.  This point is the obverse side of the coin--how to recognize merit, which is a positive.  Thanks so much for raising this issue!

[vviola]

I haven't read the entire thread because the posts are so long, but I think it ought to be suggested, if it hasn't still. Why doesn't each person have their own thread in the audition room? How many threads are on the first page? Thirty-something. Now if each member had their own thread in which to add their own recordings, and in which other people could comment, of course, then threads would not be moved down from the first page, at least not those with new recordings. There are never more than fifteen or so active threads in the audition room anyway.

[prongated]

It doesn't matter why a recording was posted, no matter its quality. I think that the fact is that people should have the power to record whatever they like on a public forum. If you don't like it then don't listen to it. Are you asked to pay for it or to travel some distance to hear it?

...so you're saying anything goes, just because it's a public forum?

Fellow forumers here, I'm sure, won't accept the use of low-level language (especially in ad-hominem circumstances) in order to maintain a certain standard, otherwise it will degrade into a chaotic drunken mob scene.

Similarly, I think it is not entirely unreasonable to expect a certain standard of recording quality, so as to maintain a certain "level" of musical performance that is then discussed. I mean, is it really unreasonable to expect one to put in the best effort s/he can into the recordings s/he posted? The responses received, too, would be even more beneficial to the original poster this way.

Sure, everyone can post whatever they want really. But by aiming for a certain standard, the benefit is for all to see and hear. It's win-win in my opinion.

[rachfan]

Hi prongated,

I agree with your premise that if the pianist is aiming at a standard in preparing and refining a rendition for posting here, it's indeed a win-win for the pianist and audience.  Moreover I can strongly relate to that personally.  I was blessed early on with a musical talent, but that alone will never suffice--it has to be developed.  Fortunately, I studied for years with two fine teachers, but piano was always a wonderful hobby for me, not my profession.  I'm an amateur.  But more importantly, I'm my own most ruthless critic.  Thus, I put a great deal of effort into my practicing, and equal care into recording and selecting an outtake that I believe will best serve the composer and please the listeners.  It's hard work (especially where my practice time is rather limited)!  I find that this approach steadily advances my pianism and listeners usually seem to appreciate the results.  That's the win-win.  I would also have to believe that many like-minded pianists here approach the piano in a very similar way. 

[rachfan]

Here's an illustration on one of my earlier points: On Page 1 of Audition Room today, P... currently has 5 recordings posted, b... 7, and i... another 5.  These are all very good pianists, so that's not the point. Rather my comments are directed at degree of utilization.  That comprises 17 of 47 slots there, meaning that three members are now using 36% of the space on the page as opposed to 6% in aggregate had each of the three posted only one recording each--and I'm not suggesting that one be the limit.  It's obviously disproportionate--and unfair.  And this type of occurrence is hardly unusual, as sometimes the monopolization of space is even worse.  It seems akin to spamming in a way.  Once again, my solution to this would be a guideline asking in a friendly but businesslike way that members show some consideration to others and phase in multiple postings of recordings over a few weeks rather than dumping them all onto the site simultaneously, or take advantage of posting four in one thread. I'd be curious to know if others here see this as being unreasonable or punitive in any way, or if we're somehow better off with the "anything goes" approach.

[pianowolfi]

Sure, there is sometimes a dysbalance. What bothers me more though, somebody like Marik felt so unwelcome here that he obviously decided to put all of his recordings off....
Sad.
 

[gyzzzmo]

I have no idea why worse recordings shouldnt be welcome here.

[rachfan]

Hi wolfi,

Marik is an extraordinary artist.  His departure and deletion of all his recordings is a terrible loss to Piano Street in my opinion.

[rachfan]

Hi gyzzzmo,

Not only are we getting "worse" recordings as you put it, but also some that have little or no sense of musicality at all.  In my mind those do not enhance Audition Room.  But here is a reply I gave to symbolism:

"What do you think of this possibility?  As you know, there's a forum here at Piano Street, "Students Corner", I believe.  When someone starts a new topic there, the same options exist in the software as found in Audition Room.  So if, for example, someone were to want to post a piece they know needs A LOT of work, but also wants constructive criticism and coaching, they could perhaps post their recording there at that point in their practicing.  So they wouldn't be barred from seeking advice or opportunity for improvement, as that has never been the intent, simply posting it in the Students Corner as the place to get help.  Audition Room would be more for posting pieces that are polished or, at least, more performance ready. Understand, I'm not advocating this here, simply advancing it as an idea to get the benefit of your thinking on it as a possibility."

By it's very description, the Students Corner is supposed to be the forum where people learning to play the piano go for help and advice.  I don't deny that the world's greatest pianists would say that they're still learning, which is true for all of us.  But I'm focusing on the relative abilities of a beginner and another pianist who is clearly more proficient and accomplished. Child prodigies are an exception obviously.  Your thoughts?

[rachfan]

Hi Everyone,

In reading the responses here, I see a philosophical element appearing.  And it's not simply the question of "anything goes" versus reasonable guidelines.  I sense that there is a conflict here between the concepts egalitarianism and excellence.  Fortunately in some venues and aspects of life, we can enjoy both, which is a great thing.  But in the world of artistry, I'm not sure that's always true.  For example, piano competitions seem to indicate otherwise.  (Not that we're competitive here, but you get my point.)  From the amount of resistance in this thread so far to better guidelines, I'm getting the impression that members here are viewing egalitarianism as the more important of the two elements.  So is the pursuit of excellence here actually less valued?  Does that make encouraging a generally higher standard of performance in Audition Room and more consideration toward fellow members undesirable? Or if the two concepts are compatible, then how do we best serve both ideals in Audition Room?

[gyzzzmo]

Hi gyzzzmo,

Not only are we getting "worse" recordings as you put it, but also some that have little or no sense of musicality at all.  In my mind those do not enhance Audition Room.  But here is a reply I gave to symbolism:

"What do you think of this possibility?  As you know, there's a forum here at Piano Street, "Students Corner", I believe.  When someone starts a new topic there, the same options exist in the software as found in Audition Room.  So if, for example, someone were to want to post a piece they know needs A LOT of work, but also wants ,..........................................................................all of us.  But I'm focusing on the relative abilities of a beginner and another pianist who is clearly more proficient and accomplished. Child prodigies are an exception obviously.  Your thoughts?

My thoughts are still that the student corner is for general questions about learning to play the piano, and the audition forum is the place where people can put their playing and get comments/advice.
If people want to hear good performance pieces they can search Youtube, the audition forum on PS is to receive advice/comments, on any level.
I just dont see any point in changing the current situation, as it works fine as it is.

[thalbergmad]

I do not see that the audition room is sufficiently active to warrant any changes.

We are not exactly talking about hundreds of posts every day here and whilst some of the posts are of dubious quality, i would not want to discourage anyone from posting if they only have cheapo equipment and undeveloped technique.

An audition room attached to the student board might be a solution if we reach epidemic proportions, but we are not obliged as members to listen to everything posted.

As with every other part of this forum, one can come to a personal decision rather quickly as to who's posts are of use.

Thal

[ronde_des_sylphes]

I'd certainly agree with rachfan that there have been some atrociously bad recordings submitted in the last few months, where the thought springs to mind that either it is bad sight-reading or that it is a practical joke, and where it is very difficult to offer any reasonable advice beyond "get a teacher".

I think it's unworkable to say "recording x is so bad it shouldn't be here". However I hope that it would be tacitly understood that you don't post a recording of your very first attempt at a piece and that some preparatory work goes in before you post (or even make this a guideline if necessary!) Equally, it's not helpful if someone responds to an poor recording in abusive rather than constructive terms. Thankfully both of these events are comparatively rare.

I think we need to consider that some posters may be, out of misplaced enthusiasm, tackling things well beyond their ability when they have had no formal teaching and don't have any of the foundations required for competent piano playing.

I think it's much more positive to find a way of celebrating the excellent recordings which have been posted by fine musicians over the years. Not only are these recordings a source of listening pleasure, they also serve as inspiration to those lower down the pianistic tree, demonstrating that you don't have to be a household name to produce a recording of genuine quality. It's a sad irony that I'm saying this whilst Marik has felt it necessary to remove his many recordings.

[gyzzzmo]

i find it rather interesting (and funny) that marik found it 'necessary' to remove his recordings.

[furtwaengler]

I don't find it interesting or funny...only sad, and a loss to this community. I feel deprived already.

No matter the reasons a person leaves, on good terms or on bad, or just needing time away from the computer (a good thing), it is easy to take for granted some of the minds and talents who post here. It's just an added blow and frustration that Marik left on the terms he did.

That's a lesson for myself, but I will also state that I'm not blaming this forum in the least. What's personal is personal, and there are things which necessarily cannot/will not be controlled.

[gyzzzmo]

i find it far from mature, so i can only laugh about it. There are always idiots on the internet and weird fellows. Instead of taking things that personal people should just ignore it and give it a laugh. Taking the effort to delete recordings if you leave for a reason like that, only amuses me more.

[rachfan]

I have to agree with furtwaengler.  I see no humor whatsoever in marik's departure from Piano Street. He was one of the finest artists here, and we were all fortunate to benefit from his many wonderful recordings during his time with us.  It's a great loss and we're all poorer now as a result of his leaving. His motive for removing his recordings might never be known; but those recordings were his alone, and he was certainly entitled to do with them as he pleased.  So from where I sit, I simply respect his decision and leave it at that.

[rachfan]

There have been some good suggestions that deserve consideration.  Nonetheless, the preponderance of the comments are that we should continue with the status quo in the Audition Room.  So I guess the majority has spoken.  Thanks for all your helpful and interesting feedback!  

[lostinidlewonder]

I have to agree with furtwaengler.  I see no humor whatsoever in marik's departure from Piano Street. He was one of the finest artists here, and we were all fortunate to benefit from his many wonderful recordings during his time with us.  It's a great loss and we're all poorer now as a result of his leaving. His motive for removing his recordings might never be known; but those recordings were his alone, and he was certainly entitled to do with them as he pleased.  So from where I sit, I simply respect his decision and leave it at that.

Wow I just realized he removed his recordings. Why let the few annoying people get to you I can never understand. It is like you hand over a victory to them.

Personally I am not saddened or gladdened by people leaving or coming to pianostreet, whoever comes comes, whoever goes goes, why should we be upset when someone leaves us? It was their decision and it is not like they cared about what other people would think or feel (even those that where always civil to them),

But just leaving in a huff and removing contributions to the website is just as stupid as those who troll the website if not worse. I suggest people just calm down and not take everyone so seriously. Hell, you know it is not a loss by not replying to someone that annoys you? Try it, it infuriates them a lot more than constantly replying and trying to be serious.

Some people think it is whoever gets the last word wins, really who gives a damn this is a public open forum, people of all ages and corners of the world come here, expect to have ridiculous people, expect to have melodramatic and defensive people. Be armed with the knowledge that if you actually met some of these people in person they wouldn't be as bad as they formulate themselves to be. Some people like to argue online because that why they post online, you get to know those type of personalities. Deal with it, how do you deal with troublesome people at a workplace or in public? Do you run away crying or do you deal with it?

So just in real life you are confronted by people you don't like so too should you face it here on the internet. Why should we create a microcosm of society trying to weed out those that we might think are damaging to a public discussion? You notice that those that are serious about pianostreet remain and we know about them, those that are not create new user names constantly, come and go, short lived fire crackers really. From being here over the years I get to know the usernames that I respect the opinions from, and I know the jokers and the new trolls. You get to know the community, it is diverse and we have to know how to treat each one as we converse with them, certainly not everyone is to be taken seriously and we trap ourselves if we do so thinking that we have to correct someones skewed view on things.

What I find more annoying however is when people create multiple usernames and talk in the same thread as if it is a different person, but they are creating support for their mad ideas. I haven't really been bothered to point out these people but it is not hard to notice, 2 posts and both about a particular unimportant topic? It's not rocket science. Need IP filters and don't let people with masked IP's post on the forum, get rid of those idiots for sure, they want to encourage a fight.

[furtwaengler]

Probably people who have a tough time here could improve their experience by following the wisdom of my wise blurb. 

[gyzzzmo]

Lostinidlewonder..... You actually managed to create a reply i agree with!

[goldentone]

Both Rachfan and I agree that there has been a change in the atmosphere in the audition room lately, and we've discussed this concern more than once.  It seems to be not just a bump in the road, but a downward trend.  I believe the issue in the deliberation here hinges on the purpose of Pianostreet.  The Performance, Repertoire, and Teaching boards all present the disclaimer of being for professionals and advanced amateurs.  When I joined the forum a few years ago, this indicated to me that this site was a serious one, though much of it is open to all levels.    

The audition room provides a forum where we can present our own recordings for comments and criticism.  I believe that Rachfan's intent of a certain quality line to be upheld has been exaggerated and misapprehended, as if Nils has been called on to be the gestapo of the audition room.  The recordings in question are ones which are not listenable, the kind which in the past have received the response of, "This doesn't belong here" by members.  It's not a call for only the "elite" to submit recordings.  It's simply that when you submit a recording, it should be presentable.  The issue isn't about age or level.  A Kuhlau sonatina presented by a child is fine; A half-recognizable travesty of the Appassionata by a 40 year-old is not.  It seems that all that is needed is a minor adjustment and enforcement in the moderation.  This isn't a request to alter the nature of Pianostreet; it's a request to recover the former atmosphere.

Pianostreet has been a source of much enjoyment for me over these past few years.  I just don't want to see the site laissez-faire itself into meaninglessness.                

[rachfan]

Thanks, goldentone, for adding those well-written clarifications.  I concur with your vision as expressed and believe it to be reasonable and workable.  Hopefully others will agree too.

[scottmcc]

I have never recorded myself playing, and probably won't ever, because I know that I am just not particularly good.  but I enjoy playing, and I enjoy listening to people who are good pianists. 

marik's departure saddens me greatly.  he was one of my favorite artists here, and his wisdom has certainly contributed greatly to what little skills I have.

I think if there were a dedicated area of the forum for lower-level pianists to post recordings, it would help to keep the audition room "cleaner."  something like a sub-forum of the student's corner called "practice room," where pieces that are still being worked out could be posted for quick help.  for instance, if someone is having trouble with a few bars, why shouldn't they post it there to get the answer?  a quick recorded reply or video reply could be of great service to that individual, as could a well-worded response instead of just "this recording is no good."

maybe something as simple as changing the forum heading on the student corner could solve this problem?  you could just suggest that works in progress be posted there, as opposed to the audition room?

[Bob]

Why not just make a list of people's top picks for a recording?  Maybe a sticky?


Or maybe Nils could set the forum so people can't alter their posts after a certain amount of time.  I don't know if I like that though but I have seen some forums that do that.

[littletune]

Well... I just wanted to ask something... If I wanted to post this really easy and short peice for kids that I've played at my recital  could I post it in the audition room or should I better post it somewhere else? I mean I don't mind where I would just like to know

[pianowolfi]

Well... I just wanted to ask something... If I wanted to post this really easy and short peice for kids that I've played at my recital  could I post it in the audition room or should I better post it somewhere else? I mean I don't mind where I would just like to know

Well I hope you will post them in the audition room

[gyzzzmo]

Hi Nils,

I've been a member of Piano Street for over seven years dating back to the time when it was called Piano Forum.

I still type 'pianoforum.net' :p

[john11inc]

I still type 'pianoforum.net' :p

Name:     Skeptopotamus
Posts:    833 (0.436 per day)
Position:    PS Silver Member
Date Registered:    December 31, 2004, 03:18:15 AM
Last Active:    April 04, 2008, 03:07:22 AM

Name:     gyzzzmo
Posts:    1568 (0.820 per day)
Position:    PS Silver Member
Date Registered:    December 28, 2004, 01:49:08 PM
Last Active:    Today at 04:05:08 PM


Hah.  Lame

[gyzzzmo]

Name:     Skeptopotamus
Posts:    833 (0.436 per day)
Position:    PS Silver Member
Date Registered:    December 31, 2004, 03:18:15 AM
Last Active:    April 04, 2008, 03:07:22 AM

Name:     gyzzzmo
Posts:    1568 (0.820 per day)
Position:    PS Silver Member
Date Registered:    December 28, 2004, 01:49:08 PM
Last Active:    Today at 04:05:08 PM


Hah.  Lame

?

[john11inc]

?

?

You've been here only 3 days longer than me.  Just find it funny that, were you to have been here longer, it is only by three days.