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Topic: Chopin's etude op. 25 no. 11 (Read 9409 times)

ponken

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I am starting to practise this piece. It's maybe a little too difficult for me but I love it too much to not attemp it. I would like some adviced on what's important to think of in this piece and how I best practise. I am also interested in knowing what fingering others use in the bar 15. Thank you in advance!

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gyzzzmo

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Re: Chopin's etude op. 25 no. 11

Reply #1 on: April 02, 2010, 07:47:32 AM

First advice: Get a proper edition of your sheetmusic with fingering.

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1+1=11

ponken

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Re: Chopin's etude op. 25 no. 11

Reply #2 on: April 02, 2010, 11:00:05 AM

Thank you! There is fingering in some parts of this edition but not everywhere.

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ara9100

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Re: Chopin's etude op. 25 no. 11

Reply #3 on: April 02, 2010, 01:53:19 PM

Oborin is a good edition.

Practice very slowly, and try to keep the chromatic scale in the 3,4,5 the fingers clear.

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scotking

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Re: Chopin's etude op. 25 no. 11

Reply #4 on: April 04, 2010, 12:52:12 AM

Hello Ponkin,

Well...If you really want to know what I do... try using 5241 in as many places that you can. This is the what late Steven deGroote told me to do 30 years ago. It works! There are few places where I use 4231 but not many.

Here ya go: :>

Scot King

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thoven_liszt

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Re: Chopin's etude op. 25 no. 11

Reply #5 on: April 04, 2010, 02:38:01 AM

It's nice to hear that someone else loves this piece enough to attempt it. In bar 15, the Henle Urtext version's fingering is pretty helpful. I usually use 5-4-5-4 where I can in the right hand chromatic passage. Also to help with fingering try blocking two notes at a time in the right hand very slowly. If you'd like, I can post the exact fingering, but I recommend finding something comfortable for your hands. This piece can cause a lot of tension in the right forearm so practice slowly using as much wrist rotation as possible. How far along in the piece are you?

- A lowly piano student

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ponken

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Re: Chopin's etude op. 25 no. 11

Reply #6 on: April 04, 2010, 06:18:23 AM

Quote from: scotking on April 04, 2010, 12:52:12 AM

Hello Ponkin,

Well...If you really want to know what I do... try using 5241 in as many places that you can. This is the what late Steven deGroote told me to do 30 years ago. It works! There are few places where I use 4231 but not many.

Here ya go: :>

Scot King

Thank you! I will try it. Thank you for the link too!

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ponken

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Re: Chopin's etude op. 25 no. 11

Reply #7 on: April 04, 2010, 06:20:31 AM

Quote from: thoven_liszt on April 04, 2010, 02:38:01 AM

It's nice to hear that someone else loves this piece enough to attempt it. In bar 15, the Henle Urtext version's fingering is pretty helpful. I usually use 5-4-5-4 where I can in the right hand chromatic passage. Also to help with fingering try blocking two notes at a time in the right hand very slowly. If you'd like, I can post the exact fingering, but I recommend finding something comfortable for your hands. This piece can cause a lot of tension in the right forearm so practice slowly using as much wrist rotation as possible. How far along in the piece are you?

- A lowly piano student

Thank you! So far I can play the first page slowly.

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dana_minmin

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Re: Chopin's etude op. 25 no. 11

Reply #8 on: April 10, 2010, 03:37:43 PM

Quote from: thoven_liszt on April 04, 2010, 02:38:01 AM

It's nice to hear that someone else loves this piece enough to attempt it. In bar 15, the Henle Urtext version's fingering is pretty helpful. I usually use 5-4-5-4 where I can in the right hand chromatic passage. Also to help with fingering try blocking two notes at a time in the right hand very slowly. If you'd like, I can post the exact fingering, but I recommend finding something comfortable for your hands. This piece can cause a lot of tension in the right forearm so practice slowly using as much wrist rotation as possible. How far along in the piece are you?

- A lowly piano student

I absolutely agree that it's always important to play it comfortably.

I use 5-4-3-5-4-3... etc for the upper voice, since you only have 2 remaining fingers, fill yourself the obvious 1 and 2. However, the difficult part is that you really need to know the notes.

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chopianesque

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Re: Chopin's etude op. 25 no. 11

Reply #9 on: April 14, 2010, 12:19:55 PM

I also had a teacher who suggested 5241 5241 in the right hand descending passages, and always when it's chromatic. This seems weird but she said the main reason it to reduce arm motion.
It also makes memorization much easier.
Her other suggestion (from her teacher ) was to practice Winter Winds together with Op. 10 no. 2
I have her fingering for op. 10 no. 2, which has several differences with the fingering in the Paderewski edition. If anyone is interested I could post that. Her fingering is easier to play and makes a great sound.

I'm just an amateur, but this woman has had a fairly big international career, and she plays Winter winds with a seamless legato and gorgeous sound.
Her teacher was Scaramuzza (same as Argerich).

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gyzzzmo

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Re: Chopin's etude op. 25 no. 11

Reply #10 on: April 14, 2010, 12:24:33 PM

Fingering depends also alot on what hand type you have. 54321 can work great with small hands, but is not that efficient with broad hands. So try multiple fingerings on troublesome passages and do what feels best for you.

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1+1=11

ponken

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Re: Chopin's etude op. 25 no. 11

Reply #11 on: April 14, 2010, 07:11:06 PM

Quote from: gyzzzmo on April 14, 2010, 12:24:33 PM

Fingering depends also alot on what hand type you have. 54321 can work great with small hands, but is not that efficient with broad hands. So try multiple fingerings on troublesome passages and do what feels best for you.

Thank you! I have found a fingering that feels good for me

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ponken

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Re: Chopin's etude op. 25 no. 11

Reply #12 on: April 14, 2010, 07:17:32 PM

Quote from: chopianesque on April 14, 2010, 12:19:55 PM

I also had a teacher who suggested 5241 5241 in the right hand descending passages, and always when it's chromatic. This seems weird but she said the main reason it to reduce arm motion.
It also makes memorization much easier.
Her other suggestion (from her teacher ) was to practice Winter Winds together with Op. 10 no. 2
I have her fingering for op. 10 no. 2, which has several differences with the fingering in the Paderewski edition. If anyone is interested I could post that. Her fingering is easier to play and makes a great sound.

I'm just an amateur, but this woman has had a fairly big international career, and she plays Winter winds with a seamless legato and gorgeous sound.
Her teacher was Scaramuzza (same as Argerich).

Yes, I would think it was great if you posted that. I have the edition from piano street of Op 10 no 2 with fingering but I haven't played it or even looked what fingering it is yet.

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chopianesque

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Re: Chopin's etude op. 25 no. 11

Reply #13 on: April 15, 2010, 02:32:57 AM

Ok, here is the fingering for op 10 no. 2 from my teacher. In terms of provenance, I'm pretty sure this is from Scaramuzza, same teacher as Argerich.
I don't play this nearly at tempo, but listening to her play it, and trying it myself, it seems to make a wonderful sound.
Another sensible suggestion was to let the left hand take notes where possible---e.g. at the 4th beat of measure 2 and in the 2nd 3rd and 4th beats of measure 4 (at least the bottom row---depends on your hand size, I guess). Window is getting jiggy after so many lines.. can't type any more in this message because I can't see it. This goes to the top of the 3rd page. The main difference with Paderewski is a lot more use of 5. At any rate this is significantly different from that fingering. Give it a try.

this fingering is for the top voice only. [meas 1]
4345 3534 5343 5345 [meas 2] 3534 5435 4543 4354 [meas 3] 3545 4354 3535 3454 [meas 4] 3434 3434 3545 4543 [meas 5] {same as 1} [meas 6] same as 2 except 54 for the last 2 notes
[meas 7] 3453 4543 5454 5454 [meas 8] 3535 4535 4535 4535 [meas 9-14---same]
[meas 15] 3453 4345 3535 3535 [meas 16] 4354 5435 4543 5454 [meas 17] 5435 3454 3454 3454
[meas 18] 5345 3434 5454 5435 [ meas 19] 4323 4534 5353 5231 [meas 20] 4323 4534 5345 4354
[meas 21] 3535 3454 5345 4254 [meas 22] 3425 3454 5345 4354 [meas 23] 5434 5354 5345 4354
[meas 24] 5454 5353 5345 3534 [meas 25] 5435 4543 5454 5431 [meas 26] 5435 4354 5454 3431

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chopianesque

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Re: Chopin's etude op. 25 no. 11

Reply #14 on: April 15, 2010, 02:47:17 AM

Here is the rest of the fingering for op 10. 2
[meas 26] 5435 4354 5454 3431 [meas 27] 5454 3545 4545 3454 [meas 28] 5435 4545 4545 3453
[29] 5454 5454 3545 4545 [30] 4534 5435 4534 5434 [31] same as 30 [32] 3.. 4534 4545 4545
[33] 4531 4545 4545 4545 [34] same as 33 .....repeat til [45] 2345 3534 5353 4345
[46] 4345 4534 5353 4345 [47] 4354 5435 4543 5454 [48] etc.

whew. That took a lot longer than playing the piece, even at a snail's pace!
Hope this is interesting.

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dtao12

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Re: Chopin's etude op. 25 no. 11

Reply #15 on: May 05, 2010, 02:03:50 AM

Congrats on your efforts -- what a magnificent piece this is!

Yes, I believe that fingering is 80% of this piece, and stamina the rest (assuming of course that you play the right notes and memorize as quickly as possible so you don't have to think). As the other posts have said, it so much depends on your hands, which fingers are weakest, etc. I found the Mikuli edition finger pretty good, and learned it that way many years ago, but never performed it. Now I'm relearning it (seriously intending to perform this time) and find that fingering is still OK, but the Scholz download on this site is not bad either. I like to give RH finger 5 a rest whenever I can, especially since it tends to get worn out from so much hammering in this piece. Measures 9-11 (and similar passages) are a good example where you can avoid using 5 at all! 4, while typically not a very coordinated or independent finger (for me at least), is stronger for the top notes anyway.

Dynamic contrasts will also help make the piece more interesting and also preserve some energy. Very few "p" markings in the score, but I think the major key sections lend themselves to some rubato and gentler touch, as if the "wind" let up for a bit.

The LH is obviously much easier than the RH, but nontrivial, especially since we probably are so occupied with the RH. If you have good octaves, then there are some places where (admittedly I cheat) I make the LH triplets all octaves rather than one octave and two hard-to-hit single notes in measures 17-18 and other passages like it. (I wish all scores came with measure numbers to make it easier to talk like this -- most don't unfortunately).

Best wishes to you!

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Post-recital -- looking at whole new program
Currently learning:
Schubert: Sonata in A minor, D784
Barber: Excursions
Considering new Bach Preludes & Fugues
& Chopin Sonata #3

stevebob

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Re: Chopin's etude op. 25 no. 11

Reply #16 on: May 05, 2010, 03:00:28 AM

I felt inspired to start learning this etude a couple of weeks ago, after I had finally gotten around to having a look at C.C. Chang's book. The figurations prevalent in the right hand (already described in this thread) seemed like a perfect vehicle for testing the high-speed practice Chang recommends of what he calls "parallel sets."

I agree with what's been said about the importance of fingering. I compared the fingerings in seven different editions, and it turns out that Friedheim (published by Schirmer) is consistently the best for me. I've made so few alterations to his suggestions that I'd guess they work for me more than 95% of the time. (For what it's worth, I found that Cortot was the most eccentric and impractical. On rare occasion I was surprised by something sensible, but most of the time his choices seemed downright peculiar.)

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