Regarding the general stupidity of the Van Cliburn competition judging...

[scotking]

Well! A piano forum! Although this event was a few years back, I'm going to say what I have to say right here in 4/2010.  I'm referring to the competition held in Fort Worth, Texas for pianists over the age of 32.  The second you're over this age, you're considered an "amateur" pianist. The cutoff age for most major international piano competitions is about this age. Too bad huh? No career for pianists over age 32. Balderdash...I'm trying to start my career here in 2010 with your help.  

I'm not going to sit here and gripe about the decision that was made about my playing at this particular event. I received excellent press reviews and I know I played very well indeed at this event. I also have placed highly at other events, and I won a first prize in Colorado, a second prize in Washington DC, and I've been a finalist at numerous other events including the Paris competition, the Gina Bachaur event, and others. So...what happened here?  If you're a prior winner at the regular Cliburn contest, you can be a judge. You don't have to have judged other competitions before apparently.  4 of the jurors were former winners of the regular Cliburn contest.

I came to the conclusion that the Cliburn "amateurs" event is not a serious event at all.  It's not judged with the same level of seriousness as the regular event where the judging criteria  includes playing cleanly. Who's going to record a pianist that plays with a wrong note in every other bar? What potential does that show for someone trying to establish a professional concert career? If it's not important enough for a pianist to show they can play consistantly cleanly with an established technique, then this should not be rewarded. To quote Franz Liszt: "Clean your dirty laundry".

The Cliburn motto is "to help with careers and not just give a helping hand...."  It didn't matter if you missed notes at the amateurs event, and believe you me, there was a lot of dirty playing, and that didn't stop people from advancing to the next round. Indeed, the guy who played Beethoven's Waldstein sonata 1st movement must have missed a dozen plus notes, yet he was a finalist, and he was given 1st prize for his sloppy playing!  Isn't that amazing? My playing of the Waldstein 1st movement in the 1st round was virtually spotless, and so stated the blogs, and press reviews.  

The real reason I wasn't advanced?  Well....maybe they didn't like a guy with the name of King... It implies that I'm the King of the piano..which is just a little too pompous for the Cliburn Foundation. No.. this can't be the reason!  But rather, it's probably because I sat in someone's chair by mistake. It was an innocent mistake. Richard Rodzinski the managing director, I'm so sorry that I sat in your chair at the welcome dinner event prior to the competition. I didn't know that was your wife I sat next to. I guess that cost me the competition right? I made you eat your dinner standing up. Honestly, I was unaware that was your seat, and I would have gotten up. I guess that's why my performance didn't get recorded. Richard Rodzinski, the mangaging director of the competition instructed the recording crew that my performance not be recorded. I believe when I went on stage he called them aside to interrupt them from recording my performance. After I played and I questioned him on if my performance was recorded, he claimed that there wasn't sufficient staff and that they had to train people.

Well.... perhaps I am the King of the piano after all, but they just don't want to acknowledge that! I have been told by a few that my etudes are on par with Maurizio Pollini, which is flattering.

I have always strived to get my etudes to meet the high bar which he set in his recording from 1972. I have practiced the etudes for many years, and a few links are below for you. I hope you enjoy my playing of them. Please let me know how you like them.

Cheers,
Scot Christopher King

[furtwaengler]

"Please do not be cynical. I hate cynicism - for the record it's my least favorite quality. It doesn't lead anywhere. Nobody in life gets exactly what they thought they were going to get, but if you work really hard and you're kind, amazing things will happen, I'm telling you, amazing things will happen." - Conan O'Brien

Competitions may have something to do with making a career, but I'm not sure they have much to do with making music. I don't mind a few wrong notes if the artist communicates...it is fat better then a note perfect performance which communicates nothing.

Welcome to the forum, and good luck with your career. I will enjoy watching your videos.

Dave

[nanabush]

Those are really damn good...  Well played!

[pianisten1989]

There are quite many competitions with no age limit. Look at bakitone.com

Your etudes are very clear, though there isn't much of dynamics or variations in tone or rubato-ish. You should look at that imo...

good luck with everything

[lostinidlewonder]

Competitions are "a" way to boost your musical career. It is not the only way. There are people who proclaim that all famous pianists won some competition, that is all great and wonderful. Who said to be a concerting pianist you have to be famous? If you have ambitions to play in world class concert halls you should really take a step back. These venues are usually invite only, you have to be invited to play for it, either you know someone very famous who is performing there and you get some part or you have the connections. The thing is you cannot learn how to make these connections,  you just have to be in the right place at the right time, winning competitions forces you into this circle but is that really how you want to grow your musical career? To me it seems fake, it has been a musical career with little life long struggle.

If you aspire for a concerting career then why don't you start doing concerts? No one is going to organise one for you, you have to get yourself into action, hire a hall, promote yourself, sell the tickets. Keep doing that and you will grow your own concerting career you will make the connections magically. If you love what you do you will learn the craft of managing a concert from preparation to finish. Too many young pianists who win big competitions have no idea about managing themselves, they are slaves to whichever manager is looking after them.

If your aspirations is to make money then go do something else not piano, if you want to be famous with the piano then you have to start from somewhere, no one is going to put you on the international platform and hand it to you. Don't aspire to win competitions to jump to this platform, go do some smaller concerts, make a name for yourself around where you live. Then opportunities will arise from this if you have something to offer the audience that they didn't know they needed. Concerting these days is more about just playing, you have to be able to have a good connection with your audience as well and this is a big part of securing your career.

[scotking]

Thank you for your comments, and Happy Easter.  I sold my piano which I used in these recordings. My Steinway D from 1972. It had a limited dynamic range. There's not much rubato in the etudes. Chopin didn't  request much rubato in the etudes. I use it more in other Chopin works. I generally try to follow his score.

My piano in gone!  I'm going to buy one again. I've had some difficult times financially and I had to sell my instrument. If it weren't for ebay I might be homeless right now. I have been unemployed since last year when I was laid off my job in a CPA firm. I received my CPA license, and to tell you the truth, although I have the skills, I have no desire to be a CPA.

I miss my piano alot right now. I want to organize some local concerts and sell some tickets as the last poster suggested. It's a good idea.  I don't really know someone famous.  I tried writing Misha Dichter.  Well, it was a stretch. I studied with the late Aube Tzerko in Hollywood when I was young. He taught Dichter before he went to Julliard.  Misha said he enjoyed my recording of the Mephisto Waltz and thought it was good! I asked him what he thought about the music biz and his response was that he "knows less and less and time goes by". In case you didn't know, he injured his hand. I don't know why it is the pianists injure their hands. Fleisher did. Graffman did. Misha gives a lot of master classes around the country. I auditioned several times at Julliard. A political nightmare getting in there if you play the piano. There are just so many pianists that want to go there because of the doors that can be opened by have a "Julliard degree". Let me make one thing clear. There is no teacher that can teach you how to play the Chopin Etudes. You simply have to practice them until your hands fall off. You have to stretch,  strain, try different fingerings and do every single one of them until you've developed your own style. It requires patience and alot of it. You just have to do what the pieces require, nothing more, nothing less.

You can hear all 24 of them at my website. :>

https://www.scotking.com

[pianisten1989]

Ofc I don't mean Rubato a la tasteless, but now it was like... everything was more or less mf and no hint of timing anywhere. (Not like stop and wait in 5 minutes, but just a hint) Now it's just plain straight forward. Not even Ashkenazy plays like that, and he still plays most things very straigh in tempo...

[pianisten1989]

You even write yourself "technical exercises, but great musical works which stood on their own individually"... But I'm sorry, I don't think you're making that much music. Ofc it's very good technically...

[richard black]

Well, you've got tidy fingers but those ChopEts are BORING, man! I'm sorry to be negative but there's no getting round it. Yeah, sure they're called 'studies' but once you designate something a concert study, i.e. fit to be played to a paying audience listening for pleasure, it deserves more emotional input than that. I hope you soon manage to afford another piano, then stop worrying about technique and be a lot braver with your interpretations.

[prongated]

I'm trying to start my career here in 2010 with your help.  

Good luck!

I received excellent press reviews and I know I played very well indeed at this event. I also have placed highly at other events, and I won a first prize in Colorado, a second prize in Washington DC, and I've been a finalist at numerous other events including the Paris competition, the Gina Bachaur event, and others.

Congratulations indeed for all your successes in those competitions.

I came to the conclusion that the Cliburn "amateurs" event is not a serious event at all.  It's not judged with the same level of seriousness as the regular event where the judging criteria  includes playing cleanly. Who's going to record a pianist that plays with a wrong note in every other bar? What potential does that show for someone trying to establish a professional concert career? If it's not important enough for a pianist to show they can play consistantly cleanly with an established technique, then this should not be rewarded. To quote Franz Liszt: "Clean your dirty laundry".

Thank God; that means there's actually still hope for musicians who care first and foremost about the music, not getting all the notes right!

Also, record companies won't care about clean playing as much as they do the "artistic merits" (whatever they think it is). Wrong notes can be spliced easily. That's what everyone does these days anyway - even live recordings of the most famous pianists. More realistically, they won't care about clean playing as much as the pianist's marketing potential, whether it be looks, persona, and his/her present reputation in the concert world.

The real reason I wasn't advanced?  Well....maybe they didn't like a guy with the name of King... It implies that I'm the King of the piano..which is just a little too pompous for the Cliburn Foundation. No.. this can't be the reason!  But rather, it's probably because I sat in someone's chair by mistake. It was an innocent mistake. Richard Rodzinski the managing director, I'm so sorry that I sat in your chair at the welcome dinner event prior to the competition. I didn't know that was your wife I sat next to. I guess that cost me the competition right? I made you eat your dinner standing up. Honestly, I was unaware that was your seat, and I would have gotten up. I guess that's why my performance didn't get recorded. Richard Rodzinski, the mangaging director of the competition instructed the recording crew that my performance not be recorded. I believe when I went on stage he called them aside to interrupt them from recording my performance. After I played and I questioned him on if my performance was recorded, he claimed that there wasn't sufficient staff and that they had to train people.

[EDITED: apologies for my previous remark. It's a sentiment that should never be expressed in the manner that I did.]

Sucks to be you; that's very unfortunate. To emphasise what Dave and "lost" said though, competitions aren't necessarily going to launch your music performing career anyway - you're not going to get regular Carnegie Hall gigs overnight!

Well.... perhaps I am the King of the piano after all, but they just don't want to acknowledge that! I have been told by a few that my etudes are on par with Maurizio Pollini, which is flattering.

I have always strived to get my etudes to meet the high bar which he set in his recording from 1972. I have practiced the etudes for many years, and a few links are below for you. I hope you enjoy my playing of them. Please let me know how you like them.

Sure, being compared to Pollini is flattering Honestly, I used to give respect to people who can play all 24 ChopEts in one sitting as in the past I had trouble playing just one properly! Now I realised how sad it is to be one of those (usually Chinese) kids who can play all 24 in their teenage years, and know absolutely nothing else about piano playing, let alone music!

Anyway, will give your recordings a go in due time!

[lostinidlewonder]

You know when I started my professional music career I didn't think too much about my hurdles. I find if you think too much about your struggles and challenges while you are trying to forge a path ahead you can get depressed, scared of taking the risk. I had to push aside earning big bucks from engineering and follow a path of love. A music career is like owning your own business, no different one bit! Some people think they have to make their product so good, winning competitions, studying 20 hours day (or whatever ) , studying with the best teachers in the world etc etc.

Where the reality is many pianists miss out on how to promote their product, how to make people interested to experience their music. I have watched winners of the Sydney International competition (a major world piano event) and fallen asleep at the concerts because they have no idea how to present, they just simply play. If you love your music you will want to talk about it to your audience, give them some insight into the music and what it means to you how it moves you and how they can attach their emotion to what they listen to.

Chopin etudes are (for me at least) played too much, I generally get bored listening to them because I have heard them so often, but they are amongst the most (if not the most) important etudes for all serious pianists to develop technique with. However you can entertain your audience a great deal more exploring other wonderful repertoire that there is out there. I prefer going to concerts where it is rare or impossible to find what is presented, these days with the internet people have seen everything and heard everything, it is good to surprise and educate them.

Playing concert standards are a good way to start out with but where do you plan to go from there? How do you intend to talk about what you play for your audience that is the 2nd half of your concert and something which most international performers even fail at (especially some famous ones because they have rested on their fame their whole life, public speaking is a skill all performers should study and work as hard at as they do their instruments)! So do a better job connecting with your audience and they will enjoy you a lot more. I have had people come to me after concerts saying that it was the best piano concert they have ever attended and start rattling names of famous pianists they have seen in concert. Why do they feel inspired to say this? Is it because I played better than these pianists? I really don't think so, we all play differently not necessarily better, but what I am sure I am better at is talking to my audience. I can get them to laugh, to sigh, cry etc simply by relating them to the lavish stories and lives of the composers beg to be told, their pieces express "hidden" meaning which you can reveal to your audience. They will love you for it being able to listen to music in a more educated manner. I am of course only talking for an Australian audience which I have most experience, but I have done similar concerts over seas as well (Turkey, Germany) and received the same results.

Of course how you play must be unique, interesting, it has to capture your audience. People are not interested in the right notes being hit. After 10 minutes of seeing mad virtuosity the effect generally wears off the audience, people want to hear the music they don't care about how difficult it is to play the piece (most concert goers anyway). Your Chopin etudes are technically very strong but musically they to be formed. Take a risk on how you want to interpret these etudes, to me it seem you want to take no risk and thus your perfomance is too bland, it could be a lot more, you have a very solid basis to move to any musical direction at a whim, good musical direction or your own experimentation will produce results that reflect your personality more.

I caught a listen of you playing Ondine from Ravel. This is a good example of your accuracy of playing but at the same time since this piece is filled with musical interpretation your "non-light" touch and evenness actually takes away from the music. In your Ondine there are notes which should be held back but they challenge the melody (for example the opening tremolo vs the melody). 3:17 and also when the water spirit and the man dive into the water 3:35  you have to work on your lightness of touch, you hit the right notes but they are slightly harsh, not quite with the correct musical context.

Your improvements mostly need to be musical as your technique will be strong enough to bend to whatever musical concept you have in mind. This is a most enjoyable but probably the most difficult part of shaping our music. Especially if you are on your own you are forced to be able to listen to yourself critically which is quite difficult as we can be quite biased.

[scotking]

Well, you've got tidy fingers but those ChopEts are BORING, man! I'm sorry to be negative but there's no getting round it. Yeah, sure they're called 'studies' but once you designate something a concert study, i.e. fit to be played to a paying audience listening for pleasure, it deserves more emotional input than that. I hope you soon manage to afford another piano, then stop worrying about technique and be a lot braver with your interpretations.

Mr. Richard,

I can see you're spelling is a bit off for Chopin. Why do you mispell his name on purpose? If you can play all 24 etudes as well as I've recorded them, just go ahead and put a link into the forum where I can hear your 24 Chopin etudes... Otherwise, why don't you just go post in another thread because as other posters have stated, my playing of them is very good.

Playing the piano is not about taking risks to impress people. As I said my piano didn't have a wide dynamic range, and it wasn't the best concert grand. I'm following the score and doing what Chopin has requested.

Also in response to listinidlewonder:
you said: The thing is you cannot learn how to make these connections,  you just have to be in the right place at the right time, winning competitions forces you into this circle but is that really how you want to grow your musical career? To me it seems fake, it has been a musical career with little life long struggle.

I agree it's fake. But it's the way things work. Competitions thrust people into the limelight that in many cases probably shouldn't be there. Thanks for taking the time to listen to my playing of Ondine! I like this music alot, and it's very watery stuff! I also play the Jeux D'eaux.  I'm a water guy actually, and I enjoy sailing boats.  My dad was a navel architect. Well, I have to go, but I'll be back.

[furtwaengler]

Mr. Richard,

I can see you're spelling is a bit off for Chopin. Why do you mispell his name on purpose? If you can play all 24 etudes as well as I've recorded them, just go ahead and put a link into the forum where I can hear your 24 Chopin etudes... Otherwise, why don't you just go post in another thread because as other posters have stated, my playing of them is very good.

Playing the piano is not about taking risks to impress people. As I said my piano didn't have a wide dynamic range, and it wasn't the best concert grand. I'm following the score and doing what Chopin has requested.

(Is it ironic that you misspelled "misspell?" )

Scot, this is an internet forum; people abbreviate things. "ChopEts" is obviously a short hand for "Chopin Etudes." Richard is not the only one who uses it, and indeed is not the only one to have used it in this thread. You're smart enough to know that, but you choose to employ a tired tactic - and such tactics are not endearing. Blaming and slandering says nothing of the criticism, whether good or bad. It's a paradox that a prideful response does not slander the critique, but like a boomerang it comes back on the proud. Whether or not Richard can play any of Chopin's etudes does not invalidate the point he makes. The majority of the people who will pay to hear you will not be able to play these etudes or the music you play, but their opinion goes far in determining the success of your career. If we can play them or not, we all have ears and can understand the difference between a performance which communicates and one which does not. You're not going to have a career if people don't want to hear you, and people are not going to want to hear you just because you can play the notes. You must communicate; give them something. So, you ought to stop and think about Richard's comment again, which may be blunt, but is still a valid criticism, for whether you like it or not, he may have hit on the real reason why you did not advance in the Cliburn. You may blame the piano for for limited range in dynamics, but you cannot blame it for the lack of imagination in variety in color and articulation. These are things which must be visited again. You are so accomplished technically - why would you limit yourself to a bland reading of the score? Even in an honest and literal approach to the score (specifically the Chopin), there are many, many possibilities. Maybe it is that you have the technique down, which is like a blank canvas on which to draw the performance, and your next step is to draw a performance on that canvas. What do you think?

[pianisten1989]

Mr. Richard,

I can see you're spelling is a bit off for Chopin. Why do you mispell his name on purpose? If you can play all 24 etudes as well as I've recorded them, just go ahead and put a link into the forum where I can hear your 24 Chopin etudes... Otherwise, why don't you just go post in another thread because as other posters have stated, my playing of them is very good.

Playing the piano is not about taking risks to impress people. As I said my piano didn't have a wide dynamic range, and it wasn't the best concert grand. I'm following the score and doing what Chopin has requested.

Be bitter if you want. So you play the etudes very well, eh? I'm sorry, but how come you aren't a great concert pianist? Or got the the finals is Van Cilburn? Obviously I'm not the only one who think your plying is a bit boring..
And plzz, don't be one of those youtube-nerds who tells everyone to shut up as long as they can't play it any better. That wont take you anywhere..
But yeh, as I said: Be bitter if you want, cause that'll probably take you to Carnegie hall...

And what? Ofc a teacher can teach you how to play chopin etudes! I don't know what teacher you've got, but if they can't teach you how to play a chopin etude, then they aren't very good teachers...

[scotking]

No bitterness. No artist hangs around a forum like this...I depart. Final post.

[furtwaengler]

Well Scot, I do want to thank you for your short time here and for posting this thread, for I think much value did come out of it. I'm especially happy that lostinidlewonder posted his advice, which for me is very helpful and very encouraging.

I am sorry for some of your recent adversity, but I do wish you a long and fruitful career, wherever the trail leads. If I happen to see your name out there someplace accessible, I should hope to hear you in the flesh sometime and experience who you *really* are.

Anyway, I've bookmarked your site. Best of luck to you,

Dave

p.s. That's awesome that you studied with Leonid Hambro! I should have asked what that was like while you were here.   

[prongated]

No artist hangs around a forum like this...I depart.

Wrong! We've got...(oh wait, just about all the professional pianists have indeed gone...)

Be bitter if you want. So you play the etudes very well, eh? I'm sorry, but how come you aren't a great concert pianist? Or got the the finals is Van Cilburn? Obviously I'm not the only one who think your plying is a bit boring...

...what, and the blind pianist that shared 1st place at the latest Van Cliburn has an interesting way of playing the Chopets? You should be at least familiar with how competitions like this works! (Van Cliburn, for example, has the head honcho of the piano mafia world in the selection panel)

Come, be nice...this guy may have a very high opinion of himself, but he sure backs it up to a lot of extent with his concert-standard piano playing (to borrow slow's favourite terminology!) The guy evidently worked his arse off to be able to play the piano, including the whole set of Chopet. Surely just because you don't like the way he plays doesn't give you the right to knock him off like that!

...not that it matters now anyway, since he's gone

I'm especially happy that lostinidlewonder posted his advice, which for me is very helpful and very encouraging.

Agreed! I used to think that lost is always lostin his own posts (you write so long man!), but at least the ones in relation to the music industry has always been a hell of an encouragement for me too. Thanks again! I now have the confidence to not return to Australia in order to study accounting...

[lostinidlewonder]

...I used to think that lost is always lostin his own posts (you write so long man!), but at least the ones in relation to the music industry has always been a hell of an encouragement for me too. Thanks again! I now have the confidence to not return to Australia in order to study accounting...

I think it is a type of therapy to type long responses! I have been at a computer keyboard typing since I was like 5 years old so I have got used to typing pretty fast, probably why most of my post end up looking pretty long. I type how I would talk, I talk pretty fast, so really this wouldn't take much time in real life ehehe.

There are many music opportunities in Australia. We are such a sports orientated country, we are not like Russia who are music geniuses because they spend all their time inside away from the cold. I really think there is something to that! Australia needs help with piano music, they need more piano solo concerts, there are communities all over the place desperate for some sort of entertainment. I did some small concerts around the place in West Australia in small town in the middle of nowhere. It was great fun. A town of 200 and all the people would come to listen because its the only thing happening in town. This is a real rustic musicians life, I love it and plan to do much more of it in my future.

Playing the piano is not about taking risks to impress people. As I said my piano didn't have a wide dynamic range, and it wasn't the best concert grand. I'm following the score and doing what Chopin has requested.

The score guides us, but we must interpret and have our own voice of expression to solve the natural needs of the musician. If you do not feel the need then you are not a complete musician but merely someone who recites music without understanding. We do not go against what Chopin wrote but we highlight it and make it our own. Maybe I am being melodramatic to say make it your own, but certainly it is of interest if you study the Chopin etudes, to give it your own breath and not feel like you have to echo someone else or follow the score like a maths manual. I think this highlights an insecurity and unwillingness to take a risk to play a phrase with your own hands and mind.

I agree it's fake. But it's the way things work. Competitions thrust people into the limelight that in many cases probably shouldn't be there.

If competitions where the only way for a concerting career I would never want to have anything to do with performing piano. Most people who win big competitions really don't make a difference to the music world. They run all around the world doing concerts under some management, they never stay in one place do service for the music for their community or whatever else. Maybe that is not their meaning and they just want to perform all over the world their whole life, perhaps they want that world performance experience then use that in some musical education (and having a teacher with international concerting experience is a rare treat).

We shouldn't judge a person for winning a competition, we can certainly judge the way in which the winner was determined. Never think that a person is not good enough to have won, it leaves a bitterness inside you that can ruin your progress and fighting spirit. Music is very very personal and not something that can be measured accurately. Competitions of music are really very random, sometimes there are competitors that stand head and shoulder above the rest, but often especially in the famous competitions, there is simply NO DIFFERENCE in my mind at least, as to who is better or not. It becomes picking on completely minor small things that makes the difference between top class competitors. This is not music, I think competitions nowadays should be more about how well the competitor can connect with an audience, their performance as a whole, not just how well they play a piece. Competitions these days are still generally blind to progress.

No artist hangs around a forum like this...I depart. Final post.

Why leave? Everyone has different opinions on music, I think your playing of the Chopin etudes is very commendable and something that a small % of pianists are disciplined enough to achieve. There is always room for improvement in EVERYONE however. I wonder why I am not an artist for hanging around this forum over the years? This forum has made me think about music in different ways that I might have not ever thought about if I hadn't talked with the individuals here. You cannot afford to be too sensitive in the musical world business or you are simply going to get squashed like a bug.

[richard black]

Well, there's a funny thing. Chap comes along, very first post complaining of 'stupidity' in people he doesn't know, for the benefit of more people he doesn't know. And then he gets the hump when a few bods make criticisms (none of them completely unreasoned). You find all sorts on the jolly old internet.

[adaubre]

Playing the piano is not about taking risks to impress people. As I said my piano didn't have a wide dynamic range, and it wasn't the best concert grand. I'm following the score and doing what Chopin has requested.

Scot,

If you really want to become a great pianist (and if you want to gain the respect of those who adjudicate at festivals) you MUST view the piano as an instrument through which you convey how YOU feel about the piece rather than what you THINK the piece should sound like based on what is written.  Your interpretations are extremely flat and robotic because you are not putting anything of yourself into the pieces.  Surely you must feel something when you play these pieces, or at least you must have an "angle" on them.

You suffer, I fear, from a similar problem that perfect_pitch has with his playing: good technique but no soul.  You must find a way to "feel" the piece even if it means in the short term making mistakes technically to get there.  

This, and other criticism here is meant to help you.  Good luck.

[perfect_pitch]

You suffer, I fear, from a similar problem that perfect_pitch has with his playing: good technique but no soul.  You must find a way to "feel" the piece even if it means in the short term making mistakes technically to get there.  

HEY... I take offence to that... Do you have any *** idea how hard it is to practice when the piano I have at home is dilapidated, weak, no voicing and is older than I am? It makes it IMPOSSIBLE to practice, or to get anything out of the piano.

I know that some of my recordings of my works in progress seem a bit sterile, but that's because I'm practicing, working, reading for god knows how many hours of the week, and sleep very little or get time to myself.

I'm going to try and make a couple of recordings this week that I hope will change your opinion of me.

[lostinidlewonder]

You suffer, I fear, from a similar problem that perfect_pitch has with his playing: good technique but no soul.  

Lol yeah so harsh, I am sure if perfect_pitch records something he has played for a long time you will change your mind! There's a difference between playing with no soul and playing pieces that are still a work in progress. Recordings only ever capture one small moment, it never represents the players 100% so it's hard to generalize how someone plays all the time by listening to their few recordings (some days we might play better than others). We can only ever consider this small moment of their playing captured in time, it can tell us a lot but it never gives us the whole picture. When I adjudicate or do examinations I will always say "Today you where" etc when presenting comments, I feel it makes the people realize that it was only today that I was considering, one small moment, some days we have good days, sometimes not, nevertheless we always improve don't we?
 

[prongated]

You suffer, I fear, from a similar problem that perfect_pitch has with his playing: good technique but no soul.

Rubbish. He's doing well as a music student.

[adaubre]

Lol yeah so harsh, I am sure if perfect_pitch records something he has played for a long time you will change your mind! There's a difference between playing with no soul and playing pieces that are still a work in progress. Recordings only ever capture one small moment, it never represents the players 100% so it's hard to generalize

Yes, this is true.  However, his page shows more than just a few videos.  He has a lot of videos many of which I watched and I must say his technique is really getting there - but in all the videos I watched, I think there is a real lacking of "personality" in the playing.  Just my opinion, but for that many videos I think there should be a indication that there is some emotion put into the playing and I just don't see it which is why I compared it to the playing of the OP.  As you must know, from your adjudicating experience, it is actually very common to see pianists play technically well but without "soul".  I think this is the case with the OP and perfect_pitch.

[adaubre]

Rubbish. He's doing well as a music student.

I suppose it depends on how you define "doing well".

If you define it as getting better technically then yes, I suppose so.

But if you have expectations of any interpretive and emotional playing, which should be apparent even in works in progress and certainly in the many videos he has online, then I'm afraid we'll have to agree to disagree.

His profs should be working with him on going beyond the page.   I haven't seen that from him on any of the playing he has posted.  Its not enough to follow pp ff, mf ret.  etc.  One has to put themselves into the piece and find their own angle on it.  And that takes a hell of a lot more work than just learning the notes and dynamics and then mechanizing a rendition of the piece.

His videos up to this point do not show that he has worked or is capable of working in this way.

[adaubre]

HEY... I take offence to that...

I'm going to try and make a couple of recordings this week that I hope will change your opinion of me.

No offense intended.  Just an observation from watching your videos.

I feel you do need to work on interpreting and "owning" the pieces you play rather than producing a copy of them.  But that's just my opinion. Your profs might see it differently.

Looking forward to the recordings.

[prongated]

I suppose it depends on how you define "doing well".

If you define it as getting better technically then yes, I suppose so.

But if you have expectations of any interpretive and emotional playing, which should be apparent even in works in progress and certainly in the many videos he has online, then I'm afraid we'll have to agree to disagree.

His profs should be working with him on going beyond the page.   I haven't seen that from him on any of the playing he has posted.  Its not enough to follow pp ff, mf ret.  etc.  One has to put themselves into the piece and find their own angle on it.  And that takes a hell of a lot more work than just learning the notes and dynamics and then mechanizing a rendition of the piece.

His videos up to this point do not show that he has worked or is capable of working in this way.

Agreed, but realise that, for most people except the most talented, it takes many years before this piece starts to sink in and feel personal when you play it, let alone sounding as good as a professional recording. It's not just something to be worked on - it's especially something that takes time. So considering that, he's doing well musically.

[adaubre]

Agreed, but realise that, for most people except the most talented, it takes many years before this piece starts to sink in and feel personal when you play it, let alone sounding as good as a professional recording. It's not just something to be worked on - it's especially something that takes time. So considering that, he's doing well musically.

I think I may have misunderstood your post.  You say "this piece" - are you referring to the OP or to perfect_pitch?  I was referring to the overall performances on perfect_pitches page which shows many, many videos that have the same problem with lack of "soul" in playing. 

As for things taking time:  Yes, individual pieces go through stages and it takes time to get to that point where you "own" it.  But an overall feeling that a pianist puts soul into classical music can be observed at younger ages and even at the practicing stage.

[pianisten1989]

How did this post become about How, or how not, Perfect_pitch shows personality in interpretations or not? And if you have an opition about something, don't be such a pregnant dog and post it like that. Tell him in a Pm or somwthing.. Geez

[lostinidlewonder]

...his page shows more than just a few videos.  He has a lot of videos many of which I watched and I must say his technique is really getting there - but in all the videos I watched, I think there is a real lacking of "personality" in the playing.

They are still videos and only single moments of time, who knows how much better he is or how good it would sound listening to it in person. When we discuss someones work we always consider the recording not the person, when someone says "you play with no soul like so and so" I find this pretty insulting and a little short sighted as well. Short sighted in the way that we are considering a few recording and using them to represent a total description of how and what a person plays like. We really should be reminded that recordings never really reveals a persons "live" playing. How many recordings have I heard a recording of a great concert pianists and been totally amazed only to realize that the recording was engineered, mistakes where removed and multiple takes where done to make certain phrases "perfect".

The difference between perfect_pitch and scotking is that scot said that he has played the etudes for many many years, but perfect_pitch admits most of his recordings are works in progress. If after many years your playing is still bland but the fingering and accuracy is top notch then you have a little problem and many people face this wall. They get to the point where the notes and fingering are all controlled but the musical expression is not or not even understood. This is a listening problem, if you cannot hear it you will not produce it, if you don't know that you don't hear it you will not know what you are missing, and if you don't know that what you are hearing is wrong, then you also will not change.

[adaubre]

How did this post become about How, or how not, Perfect_pitch shows personality in interpretations or not? And if you have an opition about something, don't be such a pregnant dog and post it like that. Tell him in a Pm or somwthing.. Geez

Its okay.  Perfect_pitch (and I'm sure you as well) can handle it.  Perfect_pitch has delivered (and you as well) many posts that could have been better suited for PMs.  Don't take offense or be worried about it.  Nothing that happens on this board in terms of criticism will come close to applying "pressure" or have any relevancy compared to real life - and I'm sure Perfect_pitch, being in a situation where he is adjudicated often knows this. 

In other words, if you want to be a hero on this board, you should really be focussing on the actual offenses that have taken place here and commenting about them, not on something as tame as this thread. 

[adaubre]

When we discuss someones work we always consider the recording not the person, when someone says "you play with no soul like so and so" I find this pretty insulting and a little short sighted as well.

All I can say is based on what he has posted on his page, its clear that he better get around to finding his "angle" on things or he'll run into major problems in the future with being taken seriously as a pianist - he probably knows this, and so does his profs.

About the insulting aspect:  Again, this forum seems to be full of people who truly mis-time their protests against what they feel is inappropriate behavior.  Its quite fascinating and a big reason why (as many have complained here) serious pianists don't hang around here.  They are just afraid of being made fools of by people like john11inch etc. and even worse, having people like you and pianisten1989 kind of just stand by saying nothing - until someone like me comes along and does something relatively mild - then "oh no!"  and "thats insulting" and "you should have PMd!".  Oh dear.

The difference between perfect_pitch and scotking is that scot said that he has played the etudes for many many years, but perfect_pitch admits most of his recordings are works in progress. If after many years your playing is still bland but the fingering and accuracy is top notch then you have a little problem and many people face this wall. They get to the point where the notes and fingering are all controlled but the musical expression is not or not even understood.

Based on perfect_pitch's videos (many of them) he is running straight into this wall (in fact, already run into it) and I'm only pointing out that he better fix it quick before his profs tag him as an expressionless classical student headed straight to the Hotel Lobby.  Yes they are moments in time - but there are more than enough now where the pattern is there - even for works in progress.  Its just an observation - and I hope he corrects the problem because he'll seriously go nowhere fast if he doesn't start treating the piano as an instrument through which to basically give his "view" on a piece - not just play a piece like a machine.

[lostinidlewonder]

About the insulting aspect:  Again, this forum seems to be full of people who truly mis-time their protests against what they feel is inappropriate behavior.

I just find it insulting when critiquing someone to say Oh you have the same problem as so and so. How does that critique help anyone except vent your opinion of someones shortcomings?

[adaubre]

I just find it insulting when critiquing someone to say Oh you have the same problem as so and so. How does that critique help anyone except vent your opinion of someones shortcomings?

Bringing up examples that illustrate the crux of the problem is a common and has been for years a very common element of criticism.  If the OP doesn't understand what is being talked about when he's getting criticism about playing that is mechanical, it helps to point to another example so that he can "step outside of himself" to see what is going on.

The benefit to perfect_pitch in this instance is that he can also do the same in reverse.

But you really shouldn't be so obsessive about "insulting" posts - unless you wish to look at clear examples in your own posting history.

[lostinidlewonder]

Bringing up examples are important but if you say someone plays as bad as person B, then that doesn't really help them at all. Are they supposed to them go listen to that person and say on yes that is bad I have now learnt a lot from this? I find it a weak way to help someone by saying this other person does bad so you shouldn't do what they do.

Anything I say online is always directed to people I am talking with. If what I say seems insulting to you then it doesn't really matter because what I said was between me and the person I was in discussion with. You on the other hand, name names without even having the person in discussion with which just seems quite backstabbing. As I highlighted before perfect pitch admits his works are a work in progress, scotking highlighted that the etudes he has played for many many years. Large difference, thus using perfect_pitch as an example is out of context.

[furtwaengler]

Why continue this thread? Scot King is gone, and we can post helpful advice to perfect_pitch in the threads he himself has set up for this purpose in the audition room. Do some thinking on it if you find something lacking or unconvincing and give some advice on how he can get from point A to point B...but on *his* threads. This would be better for everybody don't you think?

I am impressed thinking about it, that at least for me, it takes no little time and thought to give good advice on performances/recordings. It's a sacrifice, and I wish I had more time to delve into such things! 

[adaubre]

Bringing up examples are important but if you say someone plays as bad as person B, then that doesn't really help them at all.

You mean as unhelpful as speeding up a recording of someone's work in progress as a form of ridicule?

Indeed.

[lostinidlewonder]

That is open to interpretation, I did not post it to ridicule if you are asking me. I posted it to highlight what he actually sounds like, when we play slow we can forget what the context of what we play is like. Speeding up the recording I believe actually presents a musical point and has nothing to do with ridicule.

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=36998.msg422306#msg422306

I see nothing in this post which has anything to do with putting someone down.

[perfect_pitch]

You mean as unhelpful as speeding up a recording of someone's work in progress as a form of ridicule?

Okay - maybe speeding it up purely for ridicule seems a bit mean, but speeding up music to gain an insight into the final tempo I think is definitely worth doing from time to time.

I did it months ago to try and imagine the Stravinsky at full speed... recorded the video then sped it up. My teacher has also asked me from time to time whether I can actually imagine myself physically playing it at full speed...

[adaubre]

That is open to interpretation, I did not post it to ridicule if you are asking me. I posted it to highlight what he actually sounds like, when we play slow we can forget what the context of what we play is like. Speeding up the recording I believe actually presents a musical point and has nothing to do with ridicule.

You were ridiculing him - knowing that speeding it up would make the recording sound worse and thus making him look worse.

Speeding up the recording in this case serves no purpose and you know it.  You did it to ridicule him.  A simple apology to him would suffice but I imagine that won't be forthcoming.

[adaubre]

Okay - maybe speeding it up purely for ridicule seems a bit mean, but speeding up music to gain an insight into the final tempo I think is definitely worth doing from time to time.

I did it months ago to try and imagine the Stravinsky at full speed... recorded the video then sped it up. My teacher has also asked me from time to time whether I can actually imagine myself physically playing it at full speed...

I get the feeling, perfect_pitch, that you are smart enough a person to know that in this case it was done to ridicule the OP of that thread.

[lostinidlewonder]

You were ridiculing him - knowing that speeding it up would make the recording sound worse and thus making him look worse.

Well now it is the case of you substituting your own reality for what is the truth. I made it clear that I was not ridiculing him and yet you are persisting. It is not my duty to change your delusions.

[pianisten1989]

In other words, if you want to be a hero on this board, you should really be focussing on the actual offenses that have taken place here and commenting about them, not on something as tame as this thread. 

LOL! Have you like.. ever read anything on this forum? I've written quite many unheroic things, and even got reported to the moderators. So I'm not here to play hero. Though, I've never written anything bad about anyone, but the creator of the thread. And to write like you did, is just plain stupid..

[prongated]

I get the feeling, perfect_pitch, that you are smart enough a person to know that in this case it was done to ridicule the OP of that thread.

I get the feeling, adaubre, that you need to learn how to read posts with their contexts (e.g. the poster's background - you had, and maybe continue to have, absolutely no clue what slow_concert_pianist has been doing in this board) - and perhaps a little forum etiquette as well (what led to this thread going OT is you exemplifying perfect_pitch as unmusical)

[adaubre]

LOL! Have you like.. ever read anything on this forum? I've written quite many unheroic things, and even got reported to the moderators. So I'm not here to play hero. Though, I've never written anything bad about anyone, but the creator of the thread. And to write like you did, is just plain stupid..

As long as your little clique continues, this board will never get the respect that you yourselves want.

Continue if you wish.  But Pianostreet will continue being the laughing stock of the serious piano community as long as you carry on.

[adaubre]

I get the feeling, adaubre, that you need to learn how to read posts with their contexts (e.g. the poster's background - you had, and maybe continue to have, absolutely no clue what slow_concert_pianist has been doing in this board) - and perhaps a little forum etiquette as well (what led to this thread going OT is you exemplifying perfect_pitch as unmusical)

It is clear that the little clique that you have going, which for a long time fed john11inch's abusiveness on this board, is what is bringing this board down.   When you do it, I'll call it.

As for perfect_pitch:  Perfect_pitch was an example I gave as someone who seems incapable of producing emotion through his instrument.  It was related to the OP. 

As for slow concert Pianist:  if you feel the ridicule of him is justified, then continue if you wish and I wlll continue, as I did with John11inch's bullying, to call you on it.  It doesn't matter what you think a poster's history is, if you continue the cycle of ridicule, you bring the board down.  And yes, unfortunately the byproduct of that is having people like me not stand by (like so many bully-watchers here do) and passively watch it happen.

So have fun - whatever you and your little clique feels works for you.  Keep bullying newcomers and ridiculing those who you have pigeonholed and you keep the really serious pianists away from here.

[adaubre]

Well now it is the case of you substituting your own reality for what is the truth. I made it clear that I was not ridiculing him and yet you are persisting. It is not my duty to change your delusions.

The reality is that you ridiculed him - you were called on it (something I imagine you aren't too used to have happen to you) and now you are fumbling with trying to explain it.

Come on now.  Own it.  If you are going to ridicule someone at least stand up and own it.  I mean, its so obvious.  By denying it you are forcing the friends you have in your little clique here to also make themselves look foolish by trying to explain your behavior.

You know, as well as everyone else here, that speeding up that file had nothing to do with making him or anyone else learn anything about what he was doing wrong with his playing.

[pianisten1989]

Oh! So saying something like "you have the same person as that guy.. You both totally shows lack of emotions in your playing!" is what? Constructive criticism?
And what the hell? If John have some abusive thing going on, then I'm sorry, I haven't noticed it.

And look, Im not here to bully you.. I don't know what you got that from. But if you'd read the board, You'd see that Perfect_pitch doesn't lack emotions in his playing. And you'd notice that low_concert_pianist doesn't want anyone's advice.

So look through the audition forum, and you'll see that we've tried to tell him to play easier things than Hammarklavier or all chopin ballades. The answer is usually "OMG! who the HELL are you?! I've been taught by the professor of Pogorelich!" and so on.

Though, I'm sorry if I've harmed you in any way.

[perfect_pitch]

As for perfect_pitch:  Perfect_pitch was an example I gave as someone who seems incapable of producing emotion through his instrument.  It was related to the OP. 

I'll admit... if he's referring to the videos of me playing on my Brown upright piano - then he's got half a point. The piano I was playing on is sh*t and has bugger all voicing, a weak dynamic range and is about as beautiful and comfortable to play as a red-hot flute...

And although my works in progress aren't brilliant - they are works in progress. I believe that I don't have a problem with the emotional side of things, it's just that I work hard on the technical when I'm AT the piano, and once the exam comes - I'll be able to sustain the emotional intensity, since all I do when I'm AWAY from the piano is work the pieces in my head.

It's hard to truly demonstrate a purely convincing musical interpretation unless you're in an exam situation, or a performance. Have you listened to the last audio recording of my Beethoven Adaubre??? That was a pretty good performance with emotional conviction - it may not have been perfect, but I still have 5 months to go.

[adaubre]

Have you listened to the last audio recording of my Beethoven Adaubre??? That was a pretty good performance with emotional conviction - it may not have been perfect, but I still have 5 months to go.

I can't seem to find it. Sorry, I browsed through the site but can't - can you point me to it?  I checked the performance and auditions sections etc.