How much sacrifice is too much?

[lostinidlewonder]

You're Dreaming.

And if you expect us to believe that you are selling all 800 tickets, at $15-$20, for all your recitals, then you're lying too.

My strong suspicion is that you can IMAGINE doing things the way you described, and so you think that there wouldn't be much harm in saying that you actually already did that.  But you are still just lying, and there is always harm in doing that.  My answer to your ridiculous claim is: "if you think it really works that way, then just try it".  You are truly "lost in idle wonder".
Again, have a nice day.

Well I doubt you have ever come to Australia to actually understand how the people here work. We are not all up ourselves and bitter, as your response seem to highlight. America might want THE BEST when going to concerts, here in Australia we don't want THE BEST we want ENTERTAINMENT. THE BEST is a load of *** in our minds, everyone is given a go, it is called MATESHIP, and is AUSSIE!

Secondly I don't give a rats a$$ if anyone believes me or not, this is a discussion forum where people present their experience and ideas, if YOU PERSONALLY  think im talking crap, well great good for you ignore what I say, don't perverse my ideas with your lack of belief. I have studied motivation, marketing all my life, read books, attended great seminars of motivational people, I've walked the walk since I was a kid, You have no idea who I am or how much work goes into my music.

Selling 800 tickets takes 2 months of work as well my dear friend. I don't just present free concerts 1 time and get 800 sold, I will do over 20.

Too bad you must have experienced failure as a concert musician or know others who are close to you who fail, but do you realise that self promotion does not mean a SCATTER GUN approach. I target my audience, I have gone to Yoga clubs and played for their relaxation and then mentioned to them that I am holding a concert and anyone interested can purchase tickets. Right there and then I will sell probably around 20 tickets. This is for 1 hour of my time given to them I sell 20 tickets. Then I go to other clubs, retirement villiages, I even give a few tickets away for free to certain businesses and music schools, even if I give a free ticket this will mean that they will buy some more for those they will take with them.

If you say self promotion doesn't work then you have NO IDEA what marketing is all about. Especially when a concert performer, especially a concert pianist, YOU are the product and YOU have to sell yourself. There are no rules, just hard work, so pipe down and actually try something before you badger people.

[pianistimo]

if it's any consolation, i believe you.  my teacher seems the same way.  he doesn't have to 'try' so hard because he sounds good and people like the way he plays.  he really gets to experience the 'joy' in piano after all the hard work.  guess that it looks like luck -but it isn't  - as you say.  talent, yes.  but, luck, no. 

maybe it depends upon the area in which one lives.  for instance, in southern california it seemed like (and i could be way off) that rock concerts are sold out - and classical music concerts are lightly attended.  whereas on the east coast - people REALLY attend concerts here.  they are like ball games - and people are keeping score as to what's going on and who they like. 

maybe, as mentioned, too - a career to one person means 'having it all.'  whereas a successful musician may be eeking out a living - but really happy.  there must be an element of risk to it - but if you are persistent - maybe the risk lessens.  people and venues repeat themselves and become a part of your calendar?  don't really know what will happen to moi.  i like retirement homes because no one complains - and if they do - you've got 10 other people who like what you played and will out shout them.  of course, donation cans only bring in your meal for the day...but, who knows.  maybe the bohemian life is good. *dreams about seeing europe this way.

[brewtality]

Well I doubt you have ever come to Australia to actually understand how the people here work. We are not all up ourselves and bitter, as your response seem to highlight. America might want THE BEST when going to concerts, here in Australia we don't want THE BEST we want ENTERTAINMENT. THE BEST is a load of *** in our minds, everyone is given a go, it is called MATESHIP, and is AUSSIE!

Bloody Oaf! Aussie Aussie Aussie!

Seriously though, we are a nation that still turns up to Helfgott concerts. That says it all really.

[countchocula]

Well I doubt you have ever come to Australia to actually understand how the people here work. We are not all up ourselves and bitter, as your response seem to highlight. America might want THE BEST when going to concerts, here in Australia we don't want THE BEST we want ENTERTAINMENT. THE BEST is a load of *** in our minds, everyone is given a go, it is called MATESHIP, and is AUSSIE!

Secondly I don't give a rats a$$ if anyone believes me or not, this is a discussion forum where people present their experience and ideas, if YOU PERSONALLY  think im talking crap, well great good for you ignore what I say, don't perverse my ideas with your lack of belief. I have studied motivation, marketing all my life, read books, attended great seminars of motivational people, I've walked the walk since I was a kid, You have no idea who I am or how much work goes into my music.

Selling 800 tickets takes 2 months of work as well my dear friend. I don't just present free concerts 1 time and get 800 sold, I will do over 20.

Too bad you must have experienced failure as a concert musician or know others who are close to you who fail, but do you realise that self promotion does not mean a SCATTER GUN approach. I target my audience, I have gone to Yoga clubs and played for their relaxation and then mentioned to them that I am holding a concert and anyone interested can purchase tickets. Right there and then I will sell probably around 20 tickets. This is for 1 hour of my time given to them I sell 20 tickets. Then I go to other clubs, retirement villiages, I even give a few tickets away for free to certain businesses and music schools, even if I give a free ticket this will mean that they will buy some more for those they will take with them.

If you say self promotion doesn't work then you have NO IDEA what marketing is all about. Especially when a concert performer, especially a concert pianist, YOU are the product and YOU have to sell yourself. There are no rules, just hard work, so pipe down and actually try something before you badger people.

Yeah ok P.T Barnum
Dude stop lying to people

[countchocula]

Once again, I really do wish that you didn't assume that I am 100% arguing with your view here; I'd hoped that I'd made it clear that this is far from being the case. The fact that I think that your global figure of 30-35 seems to me to be something of an understatement in no wise alters the validity or the seriousness of the problem to which you are absolutely right to draw attention. Of course I won't insult you by running off a list of names to prove or disprove anything and, as I have already stated, I do not seek to encourage anyone else to try to do so here.

Not long ago, a prominent Englishman observed that he derived less than £10,000 annually from his work as a composer; he is nevertheless principally known as a composer. I could hardly agree more with you in terms of the plaint that it is well-nigh impossible for the vast majority of people to make a reliable and continuous year-on-year living either as pianists (or any other kind of performer) or composers - and this situation is arguably getting worse as we write, in many territories and for a variety of reasons not least of which is the vast and ever-increasing numbers of people engaged in the creative and re-creative practice of music. And let the teachers not be let off lightly either - I do not teach, but let us consider for one moment all those performers and composers of the next generation who will find it harder and harder still to make out, but who for the most part might not even have entered the fray at all were it not for the dedicated and encouraging work of their teachers. It's not simply a case of (as the old cliché begins) "those who can, do: those who can't, teach"; it's a far more worrying matter than that. Given that the "those who can't"s will inevitably exceed the "those who can"s by an immense margin, the educational progeny of the former will only serve to swell those figures more and more as every second passes.

That said, the volumes of new people coming into the musical market place can have only one of two possible effects; the weight of those numbers would either cause collapse in the industry altogether or they would encourage even more people to run around making even more noise to try to raise even more funds for even more music performance, recording and broadcast in even more places. However unpleasing that ever more energetic scramble might on the surface seem, it nevertheless happens - and past experience suggests that, doom-mopngers notwithstanding, it will continue to do so. One should likewise consider the saturation factor that may thereby be deemed to threaten the end users - i.e. the listeners; people not only don't have ever-expanding wallets wherewith to purchase ever more recordings and concert tickets, but they also don't have ever-expanding amounts of free time to listen. The evidence shows, however, that this is just too bad -for there's no stalling the sheer steamroller effect, any more than there's any realistic way of reliably discouraging those with an internal motivation from going for it. So be it!

Best,

Alistair

Yes, I know that we essentially agree.  And what you say here is interesting, and true it would seem, about things going either of two ways from here, and why.  Either way, here in NYC it seems that there are more pianists than people!  It's like having more combs than you have hairs on your head.  Things are a little ridiculous here.  Having three of the world's major conservatories (and a few minor ones, perhaps even better than the major ones) all on one small island certainly doesn't help matters.
Well, I can only speak for myself and the numbers that I have been shown by friends in the "business".  But things are tough all over, we definitely agree on that.  Actually being a pianist is not so disappointing if one has realistic expectations, and a handle on the odds against us.  Then it can be personally wonderful and fulfilling, as it should be.  But then you've got people in here talking about how they sell out stadiums and collesiums, and the poor souls who believe them are wondering why they themselves can't do that.  I just think it's a shame that there is an illusion that a concert career is within reach for anyone that has the talent and desire.  It is important to get the message out, because they don't tell you at Julliard.  Not to beat a dead horse, but again, I know so many enourmously talented, driven and determined young friends, who can't get beyond first base.  They are savvy, creative, and personable.  They are Julliard post-grads, competition winners, some have agents and recordings.  They are as successful as it gets, without being all-out, upper-eschelon famous, ala Andsnes or Kissin.
They are barely earning anything by playing, almost all of them are teaching privately, and they have no idea what they will do in the future, outside of hopefully teaching at a university (which is not so bad either, right?).
I don't mean to be the villain here, and turn people off to playing the piano, but I don't like seeing young dreams crushed by the reality of the situation.  Judging from your very decent, human  tone, I'm sure we agree on that also.

Count Chocula.

Maya - if you are even still following this grim thread: how much sacrifice is too much?  It's never too much, as long as you love sacrificing -  just don't put all your eggs in one basket.

[lostinidlewonder]

Yes, I know that we essentially agree.  And what you say here is interesting, and true it would seem, about things going either of two ways from here, and why.  Either way, here in NYC it seems that there are more pianists than people!  It's like having more combs than you have hairs on your head.  Things are a little ridiculous here.  Having three of the world's major conservatories (and a few minor ones, perhaps even better than the major ones) all on one small island certainly doesn't help matters.
Well, I can only speak for myself and the numbers that I have been shown by friends in the "business".  But things are tough all over, we definitely agree on that.  Actually being a pianist is not so disappointing if one has realistic expectations, and a handle on the odds against us.  Then it can be personally wonderful and fulfilling, as it should be.  But then you've got people in here talking about how they sell out stadiums and collesiums, and the poor souls who believe them are wondering why they themselves can't do that.  I just think it's a shame that there is an illusion that a concert career is within reach for anyone that has the talent and desire.  It is important to get the message out, because they don't tell you at Julliard.  Not to beat a dead horse, but again, I know so many enourmously talented, driven and determined young friends, who can't get beyond first base.  They are savvy, creative, and personable.  They are Julliard post-grads, competition winners, some have agents and recordings.  They are as successful as it gets, without being all-out, upper-eschelon famous, ala Andsnes or Kissin.
They are barely earning anything by playing, almost all of them are teaching privately, and they have no idea what they will do in the future, outside of hopefully teaching at a university (which is not so bad either, right?).
I don't mean to be the villain here, and turn people off to playing the piano, but I don't like seeing young dreams crushed by the reality of the situation.  Judging from your very decent, human  tone, I'm sure we agree on that also.

Count Chocula.

Maya - if you are even still following this grim thread: how much sacrifice is too much?  It's never too much, as long as you love sacrificing -  just don't put all your eggs in one basket.

stop rambling

[pianowelsh]

I just wrote a massive post and it vanished so this is a condensed version.  BUT It becomes too much (the debate) When All you have in life is the piano and when people become devalued and your own identity gets lost and inextricably tied to an inanimate box with levers!  Dont do it.  I have to say having read the above slightly malicious debate that it has only consolidated my position that the piano cannot reciprocate Love something ALL people need whether Julliard graduates or self promoting Aussie pianists. We are designed for relationship and when piano becomes the consumer to the extent that we dont relate to God primarily and people then we have massively allowed it to overstep the mark.  I know myself the temptation to let the piano take control but when you compare the beauty of the music to the beauty of the cross of Christ then you realise that the piano can offer you nothing.  God loved us SO much that he sent his son to die in our place so we could have a Love relationship with him and all we have to do is respond to his love (like a marraige proposal all you have to do is say yes and give yourself over to the relationship).  I know people who look for happiness and forfilment in their playing and career - they havent found it there is constant stress to always be the best and should they perchance have a bad concert then they are an emotional mess and either end up depressed or vanish into the practice room for hours and once again shut everyone else out to some how try and apease the piano spirits by working harder and being better.  That tense cycle once you get onto it NEVER ends.  THe only place there is total unconditional acceptance and Love is in Jesus Christ thats why whether Im doing good and myplaying is progressing fantastic or whether Im feeling really rubbish about myself musically my trust is in God and anything that undermines that is a sacrifice too far on my part and is really counter productive.  So my advice to anyone who hasnt lef the piano in like 14 hrs straight and gets their tea left outside the practice room door on a tray is lock the lid go out and interact with people because if you don expereince life you wont be able to express yourself properly at the piano anyway.  And with the greatest of respect for everyones individual beliefs my experience is that knowing Christ and his Love/acceptance/forgiveness etc etc is better than anything else so if its acceptance and Love that you are missing in your life and your trying to find it elsewhere the bible says that is obtainable only in Christ and that we can obtain it by caling out to him for help.    Bless you guys - Keep enjoying music!

[pianowelsh]

jr11.  I know where you are going with your origional post but it neednt be lonely at the top for the above mentioned reason that if you know Christ you are Never alone and also if He is your Lord you are Never at 'the' top which is a real relief because no matter what situation is thrown at you there is ALWAYS someone (namely God) to refer upto - which is wonderfully freeing whatever level of responsibility you hold.

[brewtality]

please spare us (or me in any case) the sermons Pianowelsh.

[ahinton]

you've got people in here talking about how they sell out stadiums and collesiums, and the poor souls who believe them are wondering why they themselves can't do that.  I just think it's a shame that there is an illusion that a concert career is within reach for anyone that has the talent and desire.  It is important to get the message out, because they don't tell you at Julliard.  Not to beat a dead horse, but again, I know so many enourmously talented, driven and determined young friends, who can't get beyond first base.  They are savvy, creative, and personable.  They are Julliard post-grads, competition winners, some have agents and recordings.  They are as successful as it gets, without being all-out, upper-eschelon famous, ala Andsnes or Kissin.
They are barely earning anything by playing, almost all of them are teaching privately, and they have no idea what they will do in the future

I can empathise with this without difficulty and have no doubt of the veracity of what you write here; the more pianists there are, the harder it becomes for an ever larger proportion of them.

That said, however, some pianists find it harder than others because they have particular repertoire agendas which they prefer not to sacrifice (at least not all of the time). In such cases, I have experience myself of pianists who have on occasion tried to self-fund performances - not from their own pockets, that is, but to find their own support to mount events in which they perform. Yes, it's another layer of hard work on top of the already hard work of preparing and performing the repertoire concerned, but it can sometimes be made to succeed. On other occasions, on the other hand, I have also attended performances that have been organised in the more conventionally accepted way but which have nevertheless attracted minuscule audiences. So - it can be something of a lottery in many cases, whichever way it's done - except, of course, when the artist is a household name. Mind you - even the big name cannot always be guaranteed the sell-out audience; the opening concert in the XXXI Bonn Beethovenfest in 1983 was to be a piano recital by Arrau; he was indisposed and was replaced by Bolet. In the 2,000+seat Beethovenhalle in the city of Beethoven's birth in a well-established festival in Beethoven' name, the all-Beethoven programme Bolet gave was attended by around 100 people...

Best,

Alistair

[m1469]

m1469 - if you are even still following this grim thread...

Yes, I am still following, though somewhat skimming.  I find it interesting, actually, that this thread has continued past my random bumps with my short afterthoughts.


Please continue as desired

[pianistimo]

well, not to keep praising my teacher too much - but, simply as an observer.  he self-promotes just as lostinidle does.  and, he seems to me to be very content.  maybe contentedness is a factor when you are considering a career.  then, the sacrifice (and i'm sure he's made many to get where he is) isn't much even if you don't make 100 grand or whatever it is you thought you might when you started out. 

if i could  play like him, i would probably have a huge head - but, he's very humble and keeps his students humble too.  i think of all the things i like (as pianowelsh was saying) is that no matter how good you are, or how good your career is - there's always room to improve.  seems that good teachers are constantly improving themselves, their technique, their mode of operating (business side) to keep up with changing times, and very sharp people.  excellence always gets you somewhere in any field (even if you do have three combs in your hair) *i liked that one.

[pianowelsh]

Bless you bewtality! by name and by nature it seems?  I think I and everyone else would be inclined to heed your comments more if you could support the topic rather than mocking other peoples seriously held beliefs/opinions.  I try where possible to answer peoples questions and contribute to peoples debates as i was under the impression that that was the main function of a forum....Perhaps I am wrong and they opperate more like the stocks in that you sit there with your view and get wet sponges hurled at you....erm??..No I dont think so!   I still stand by my statement that people and relationships are more important than advancement/careers and indeed status - this is clearly not popular today but then the world we live in is a very sad place in many places today - that isnt coincidental or in anyway unrelated to the way we deal with others and realte to God so look at it and reason it in a secular way if you want but senates and governments have been doing that for a few thousand years and by all accounts It hasnt fixed the problem so good luck to you.

[ahinton]

Bless you bewtality! by name and by nature it seems?  I think I and everyone else would be inclined to heed your comments more if you could support the topic rather than mocking other peoples seriously held beliefs/opinions.  I try where possible to answer peoples questions and contribute to peoples debates as i was under the impression that that was the main function of a forum....Perhaps I am wrong and they opperate more like the stocks in that you sit there with your view and get wet sponges hurled at you....erm??..No I dont think so!   I still stand by my statement that people and relationships are more important than advancement/careers and indeed status - this is clearly not popular today but then the world we live in is a very sad place in many places today - that isnt coincidental or in anyway unrelated to the way we deal with others and realte to God so look at it and reason it in a secular way if you want but senates and governments have been doing that for a few thousand years and by all accounts It hasnt fixed the problem so good luck to you.

I think - to be fair to "brewtality" - that his brief request to you was not entirely unresonable, at least to the extent that he seemed to imply a desire that contributors to this thread remain on topic without bringing in other considerations that may, to those who share your beliefs, seem to have an indirect relevance to it but that would be lost on others who don't share them.

Let me be clear - I happen to have grave reservations about at least some of what I assume to be your beliefs as you express them but, since you are nevertheless entitled to them, it is not my place to mock them, nor do I seek to do so; nor, indeed, would it be helpful to the development of this thread if I even discuss them here, since they are not the subject of the thread, which is a consideration and discussion of the extent of sacrifice that may be involved in a pianistic career. This is a subject that, in varying degrees, may well affect and/or interest atheists and agnostics just as much as the various kinds of Christians, Muslims, Jews, Hindus, Sikhs, Buddhists, Zoroastrians, etc. who, irrespective of (or even in some cases despite) their backgrounds, are practising as professional Western musicians.

Whatever you - or indeed anyone - may think about "people" and "relationships" (by which I presume you to mean human ones) being "more important than advancement/careers and indeed status", as you put it - and to whatever extent your beliefs may influence your stance on this - the subject thread remains the latter of these two considerations; if you have something useful to contribute specifically to that, then we'll all want to read it, whether or not some of us may agree with it (this is a discussion forum, after all, so some healthy and civil disagreement is not only to be expected but welcomed), but if you feel - as you appear to imply - that the entire business of "advancement/careers" is somehow distasteful and represents some kind of devaluation and/or debasement of human activity and expectation, then it may reasonably be assumed that, beyond so saying, you are unlikely to have much, if anything, to contribute that will be of direct relevance to this thread. May I therefore respectfully suggest that you give this some thought before adding further to it?

Again, I do not seek to mock - or even necessarily disagree with - your assertion here, but unless you propose the wholesale abandonment of the kinds of performance / broadcast / recording activity in which we all expect Western musicians to participate, in favour of "people and relationships", we must seek a more balanced solution and it is, I think, the desire to adress and consider that potential dilemma that prompted m1469 to initiate this thread. The sometimes great and manifold commercial and personal obstacles to the kinds of career under the microscope here cannot be ignored; neither is it sensible merely to declare that one doesn't like them so it would be better if it went away, otherwise the very much greater sacrifice would be that of the immense and ever greater proliferation of Western music.

Best,

Alistair

[pianowelsh]

Im sorry - Im rather confused! In what way is the current Western Performance art tradition not about people and relationships?? Isnt the whole concept of performance based on communication and self investment? to that end we should invest all our physical and intellectual powers - its our responsibility and our job.  If you wanted me to talk about the finnancial and commercial aspects of 'sacrifice' then im more than willing to do so - but frankly that kind of investment isnt as significant to me.  Its a by product and directly corresponds to my spirtual relationship with God who supplies ALL my needs.  So I find it surprising that my views are classed as irrelevant to the discussion.  Perhaps they were just not what people wanted/expected to hear.  Dont you just hate that when people on forums dont say what you want them to say. .  Im sorry Brewtality if you or anyone else was offended by my earlier post. My intention is not to offend but I cannot be expected to suspend my belief in God whenever I answer a post - that isnt a reasonable expectation and I did try to answer the subject line of the thread as best I coul. We cant always think the same way - it would make life terribly boring.

[pianistimo]

dear pianowelsh,

i see your points as valid to the discussion of sacrifice - because you are making sacrifices being a Christian probably in all areas of your life (just as professional pianists do to have a career).  people don't see the sacrifices sometimes.  we are told to have 'moderation in all things.'  so, for me, as a mother, i have to keep tabs on the percentage of time that i spend alone with the piano as compared to my family.  occasionally i've gone off the deep end and known it.  i think it's entirely dependent upon each person and situation.  someone who is single may have a lot more time - and it may be well spent time since it is their livelihood.  each person has to moderate and balance their own career with friendships, etc. otherwise they might be in danger of losing them.  but, then there's the other side, too -where people talk too much and don't get anything accomplished (speaking to myself).  i am in awe of people who are so organized and can get up early -  practice, teach all day, do all the paperwork involved in teaching, keep up with their own personal lives... it's definately a balancing act. 

[ahinton]

Im sorry - Im rather confused! In what way is the current Western Performance art tradition not about people and relationships?? Isnt the whole concept of performance based on communication and self investment? to that end we should invest all our physical and intellectual powers - its our responsibility and our job.  If you wanted me to talk about the finnancial and commercial aspects of 'sacrifice' then im more than willing to do so - but frankly that kind of investment isnt as significant to me.  Its a by product and directly corresponds to my spirtual relationship with God who supplies ALL my needs.  So I find it surprising that my views are classed as irrelevant to the discussion.  Perhaps they were just not what people wanted/expected to hear.  Dont you just hate that when people on forums dont say what you want them to say. .  Im sorry Brewtality if you or anyone else was offended by my earlier post. My intention is not to offend but I cannot be expected to suspend my belief in God whenever I answer a post - that isnt a reasonable expectation and I did try to answer the subject line of the thread as best I coul. We cant always think the same way - it would make life terribly boring.

I did not and do not say that the current Western Performance art tradition (is) not about people and relationships. What I did do was endeavour to address the specific point that m1469 raised when initiaing this thread. It must be borne in mind that the life of a touring performer is such that many yours are spent daily in practice and many days, weeks, sometimes months at a time are spent travelling from one place to another. The financial side is another matter which neither of us needs necessarily to discuss here, but one nevertheless cannot ignore the pressures on such musicians to support themselves by means of the kind of life to which I have just drawn attention. Of course performance is about people, relationaships and communication; however, other than in the green room afterwards (and not even then in the case of touring orchestral musicians), the performer's communicative time is spent at a ndecessary distance from those to whom he/she is communicating; that is in the very nature of public musical performance in concerts and recitals as well as in opera houses.

I am by no means expecting you to suspend your belief in God when you write about this or any other matter not directly connected with that personal belief, but if you wish to address the totality of forum menbers and discuss the sacrifices made by all touring musical performers, you would be well advised to leave the "God" factor out of it, because there will inevitably be agnostics and atheists among both the forum membership and the professional performers whose sacrifices we are discussing, all of whom will be subject to just the same thoughts and decisions as are those who believe in God as you do.

Best,

Alistair

[brewtality]

Im sorry Brewtality if you or anyone else was offended by my earlier post. My intention is not to offend but I cannot be expected to suspend my belief in God whenever I answer a post - that isnt a reasonable expectation and I did try to answer the subject line of the thread as best I coul.[sic]

Sorry, but even after re-reading it, I still can't see the relevance. Perhaps it is as Mr Hinton said, and that those who share your religious convictions can see the connection whilst others cannot. In any case, I'm not easily offended so there is no need to apologise.

[pianowelsh]

Oh I think i see where you are getting at with the touring and being away from family.  Yes of course thats hard! and I know very well about the hours and hours spent in a practice room on your own and sometimes under really stressfull conditions and thats just part of life!  Piano is not the only profession where that happens there are lots of jobs where that is the case.  There are notable exceptions amongst the famous pianists who limit their touring away from home considerably for the sake of family and stability.  Many actors too and I know of several professional orchestral musicians who have turned down promotion and stayed in local pro orchestras for years principally because of the family and spending time with friends and partners.  One can have a very sucessfull career without casting off everyone and everything else you hold dear for the sake of your 'art'.   I still think that it isnt a good thing for someone to abstain from close relationships (or strain them) or sacrifice everything finnacially for being at the top pianistically.  Its so empty! At best you will be top for a few years then you'll be forgotten or relatively obsure.  Its terribly humbling if you approach a school kid and ask them who Kissen or Ashkenazy is - None of them know! - half of the music classes couldnt even tell you let alone average kid.  Average people really dont care that much about whether you are top or not and it certainly isnt worth missing out on life divorcing yourself from world as you hear some pianists do spending 12 hrs pday in practice room with their parents/live-in teachers acting as butlers to reach the top for that.  I think you are right in someways though you cannot understand the difference that having a relationship[ with God makes on your career outlook. Frankly everything in the world just looks a while lot smaller when you spend time with God.  I disagree that talking about God in a post is irrelevant to agnostics etc because just because they donot believe in God or cannot proove his existence is not sufficient reason to state that there is No God. If God is who He says He is then whether or not we as people choose to acknowledge his presence or not makes absolutely no difference to his existing Hes not like a bubble we can pop if we dont like him.  He IS.  Like I say everything else is very small in comparison and so to spend a lifetime investing singlemindedly into the piano is really a waste if you miss the awesomeness of God.  Its like a child pleading with his mother for a sweet when his dad owns the whole store - its meaningless.

[rimv2]

Hypothetical situation:  Pianist's career did not end up going as planned and Pianist seems to be a little bitter at the world. 

Pianist says he/she loves the piano more than anyone can imagine, and advises that it is all about what one is willing to sacrifice.  S/he has already accomplished some extraordinary things.

Pianist seems to have sacrificed just about everything.  For what?

How much is too much?

m1469

Shut up and enjoy life and the music. Work will come. Pianist will survive as pianist before  pianist has done.

It's only too much when Pianist has cracked and spends the majority of Pianist's day in a catatonic state such as the one ah spent mah day in.

Pianist hasnt completely withdrawn, therefore there is still hope for Pianist and Pianist's future.

Tis too late for meh

[m1469]

Here is something that I have recently realized.  The "sacrifice" does not seem like a sacrifice if you know you are getting something out of whatever you are choosing to do over whatever else (or even specifically *what* you are getting out of it).  However, if you have no idea why you are doing something, or it appears that you are getting nothing out of doing it, it feels like a meaningless sacrifice.

This leads me to believe that specificity and awareness are key elements in leading a fulfilling life... however, sometimes these things just do not seem clear enough to hold on to.


Just felt like submitting that, please feel free to express your experiences and/or opinions regarding those thoughts

m1469