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Topic: Chopin Etude Op. 10 No. 10 - pivot on sustained note in LH's broken chords?  (Read 11233 times)

Offline stevebob

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Chopin Etude Op. 10 No. 10 - pivot on sustained note in LH's broken chords?
on: May 31, 2010, 02:10:56 PM
My question concerns the left hand's figure in the opening bars (and in subsequent iterations):



The prolonged duration of the E♭ implies that it functions as a pivot for lateral movement between the higher notes and the A♭ below.  Every edition I've seen prescribes holding the E♭ with the fourth finger.

Do people really find that to work?  I lack sufficient span between my fourth and fifth fingers to reach the low A♭ at all (never mind at tempo with control over dynamics and articulation).  Yet my hands are of average size and regular conformation—standard fingerings suggested by most editors generally work fine—so I'm perplexed by the unanimous indication is to use 4 on that note!

Using my third finger would seem to work just fine.  Does anybody else do that, or can you actually play these passages as written with your fourth finger?  Or do you use the fourth finger but ignore the note's value and forego the pivoting entirely?

I appreciate any insights or experiences others here might share.
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Offline horowitzian

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Re: Chopin Etude Op. 10 No. 10 - pivot on sustained note in LH's broken chords?
Reply #1 on: May 31, 2010, 05:12:22 PM
I just tried it...there's no way I could reach the A♭ with 5 while pivoting on the E♭ with 4. I would think it would require larger than average (or exceptionally nimble) hands to be able to do that. For me, pivoting on 3 would fit perfectly, as it does for you. :)
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Offline nearenough

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Re: Chopin Etude Op. 10 No. 10 - pivot on sustained note in LH's broken chords?
Reply #2 on: June 01, 2010, 01:41:06 AM
I am wondering what audible difference would it make? The sustaining pedal holds all the sound down so you don't hear anything even if you staccato play the note supposed to be held for the value indicated. Besides this scheme is abandoned in the written notes just a few measures ahead. I find that playing the note with either the 3rd or 4th finger is easy if you just jump off it and play the next lower "A" when it comes up. Of far more importance, which hardly anyone plays correctly are the accents in the right hand, triplets versus doublets, as indicated. On records (LPs) Anievas is the only artist who does this as written.
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Offline stevebob

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Re: Chopin Etude Op. 10 No. 10 - pivot on sustained note in LH's broken chords?
Reply #3 on: June 01, 2010, 02:44:04 AM
There may be no audible difference at all (and I, too, find that either 3 or 4 works fine provided that the E♭ isn't held for the duration specified).  I'm trying to reconcile what the notation dictates with a fingering which, though universally suggested, would appear to be wholly incompatible.

I've just had a look at the Chopin's First Editions Online site.  While the original French edition gives no fingering for the figure in question, the English and German editions do indicate the fourth finger.
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Offline ramseytheii

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Re: Chopin Etude Op. 10 No. 10 - pivot on sustained note in LH's broken chords?
Reply #4 on: June 06, 2010, 11:30:01 AM
Similar to the Rachmaninoff op.39 no.1 conversation that came back to life, I think your problem is based on a faulty premise of connective fingering.

Part of what made Chopin's technique so revolutionary is that it was not dependent on the close, connective fingering that essentially characterized polyphonic music, that was inherited in the breezy days after Bach's death and continued through Mozart, Haydn and Beethoven**.

This is music more based on the movement of large muscles.  Seen from that point of view, the left hand is not that difficult.  When he asks to play 4 on the e-flat, it doesn't relate to the pinky from the Aflat at all; it's just a new position.  You have to use your upper musculature to reposition, not connective fingering.

Walter Ramsey




** If you study Schnabel's sonatas editions, you'll find that one of his innovations was applying a more Chopinesque fingering conception, in other words he applied fingering based on phrase structure rather than connective issues.
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Offline stevebob

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Re: Chopin Etude Op. 10 No. 10 - pivot on sustained note in LH's broken chords?
Reply #5 on: June 06, 2010, 03:39:07 PM
Thanks for your thoughts, Walter.

I lack the historical perspective on fingering that you have, but my familiarity with Chopin is such that I feel justified in seeking a purpose and intention in every aspect of his notation.  I think it would be an understatement to say he was careful and deliberate about his choices, and I'm not convinced I've yet found a satisfactory explanation for this example.

I'm thinking of a case such as measure 3 of Op. 10 No. 4, in which extra stems and eighth-note flags make clear the pivoting movement that is necessary on the second sixteenth note of each group.  On its face, the writing in Op. 10 No. 10 seems to present a similar issue with a similar solution.

I just don't understand why one would think that the half notes within those groups would not be expected to be held.  Do you have any ideas about what Chopin could possibly have intended in purposefully opting for such a notation?
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Offline pianoamit

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Re: Chopin Etude Op. 10 No. 10 - pivot on sustained note in LH's broken chords?
Reply #6 on: June 06, 2010, 04:18:15 PM
Just like you described in Op.10/4, the double stemming here implies a pivotal movement using the arm muscles more than just the fingers or the hand. To me, the fact that he double-stemmed a minim (as opposed to a crotchet) suggests that he wanted the 4th finger (which is absolutely the correct finger for playing this note) to stay in the vicinity of the E-flat, thereby encouraging a pivoting wrist motion.

If you are unsatisfied with accepting this at face value (and by your own admission lack the capability of playing this fifth with your 4th and 5th fingers) I am afraid that you might be heading into a rather Sysiphian effort.
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Offline stevebob

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Re: Chopin Etude Op. 10 No. 10 - pivot on sustained note in LH's broken chords?
Reply #7 on: June 06, 2010, 04:45:29 PM
I think a case could be made that 4 is "absolutely the correct finger" if it were a double-stemmed crotchet.  But a minim?  I wonder how common it is for anyone to span a fifth with their fourth and fifth fingers with control and accuracy at high speed.  Apparently, most cannot—and by choosing to use 4, they give priority to a fingering principle that I don't comprehend over the note's duration.

If, as you say, 4 is absolutely the correct finger, then using 3 is unequivocally ruled out.  Can you help me understand why that should be?

If I were to regard the score of this etude prima vista with no fingering suggestions at all, I would use 3 without hesitation.  Observing the note's duration would admit no other choice.  I guess it's the fact that no editor apparently even acknowledges that possibility (or the technical challenge of the lateral pivoting irrespective of the finger used) that I find so strange and incomprehensible ... and therefore can't quite accept at face value.

Thanks for your input!  I had given up on this thread having any traction by now, and I really do appreciate the comments from you and Walter.
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Offline miken49

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Re: Chopin Etude Op. 10 No. 10 - pivot on sustained note in LH's broken chords?
Reply #8 on: June 06, 2010, 05:05:33 PM
I think by choosing 3 instead of 4 your choosing the greater two difficulties. Sure it feels slightly awkward to rotate to the Ab on the 4th but in my opinion it's far worse to rotate to an Eb on the 3rd going the distance of an octave.
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Offline pianoamit

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Re: Chopin Etude Op. 10 No. 10 - pivot on sustained note in LH's broken chords?
Reply #9 on: June 06, 2010, 05:09:09 PM
Even if you were to try and adhere to the minim note value that Chopin had written, it wouldn't seem smart to me to try and do so with the fingers - the pedal is there for particularly this reason. One of the elements of technique that this Etude helps with is the pivotal motion of the wrist. This is why every editor that I know of has chosen a fingering that enhances this movement, knowing that the E-flat is easily maintained by the pedal. I don't have my Ekier edition handy, but I believe Ekier uses this fingering and says that it comes from Chopin himself (someone correct me on this if I'm wrong). Ultimately, playing this E-flat with a 3, puts my large hand (and I suspect most people would agree) under a great deal of strain if I try to play the octave to E-flat above it and even more strain if I try to play the A-flat as well. This type of tension in the hand is absolutely not conducive to a free, rotating wrist.

To understand Chopin's notation, I would suggest you think about this passage orchestrally. I would imagine that whatever strings provide the harmony in this fictitious orchestration (almost certainly with a pizzicato double-bass on the lowest A-flat) would be accompanied by horns with this E-flat, which is essentially another voice in this texture.

I cannot say this without having heard you play, but I should imagine that you will find it difficult to achieve the smoothness and control that is required of the left hand in this Etude, if you try to use a different finger on the E-flat.
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Offline stevebob

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Re: Chopin Etude Op. 10 No. 10 - pivot on sustained note in LH's broken chords?
Reply #10 on: June 06, 2010, 06:52:59 PM
More thanks for your insight.  :)
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Offline pianoamit

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Re: Chopin Etude Op. 10 No. 10 - pivot on sustained note in LH's broken chords?
Reply #11 on: June 06, 2010, 07:34:47 PM
...always happy to help...
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