What's your relationship with your students?

[Bob]

Similar to this thread from the other perspective.
https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=37755.0

[m1469]

My relationship with my students is pretty varied, but there are similarities between all in terms of what I aim to be as a teacher.  I always aim to have some form of personal connection with them.  In any of my lessons there are sometimes laughs, sometimes I'm more stern, sometimes I push harder than other times, and sometimes I "let them lead" it a bit more.  

I have 4 adults and that is definitely its own dynamic.  With one of them, one closer in age but a bit younger than me, who is also teaching, I have gone to lunch with several times, have had dinner at her house, and have had her here one night when she was in duress.  I do find that my adults tend to be quite loyal to me, for example one of those 4 has recently gone through very, very challenging times in her family and had stopped coming to lessons for a couple of months.  I have been willing to drop any and all of my regular policies on her behalf, but for the past couple of months she has stopped by unannounced with a check in hand to pay for the month in order to reserve her spot (despite my honest protests).  Another brings me vegetables from her garden almost every lesson during the ripe season for the past couple of years.  

My younger ones are all different, and I just went to the Bat Mitzvah of one of my young teens.  She is "serious" for a young lady with many interests and for somebody in their first year of high school at a private school, meaning I am pretty serious with her despite aiming to be personable.   I do have a few firecrackers who, in their feistyness, might say something to me that I don't feel I will let go unaccounted for, and I let them know, but I generally don't mind a student with a bit of energy.  I try to really let them be themselves and to get a feel for what that is.  

My studio feels really different right now than it did last year, because I don't have the ones anymore who were really dragging me down, plus the stress level is lower since I've got the other teaching job, too.  That changes things a little bit, too.  I would say that generally the average quality is a bit higher right now than it's been in awhile.  I can't say that I'm upset about that!

[lukebar]

It's a tricky balancing act. One of the best ways to motivate students is to forge a good relationship with them so that they want to please you, so that they want your affirmation and approval. This always works better than scaring them with your wraith if they fail to meet your expectations.

At the same time, too much of a buddy-buddy relationship brings about a comfort level that does not always lead to pushing the student to their full potential. I've had some students that I started as young children who had grown up to be fine high-school aged musicians. But I recognized that it was time for them to switch teachers. Our relationship had become so familiar that they could practically anticipate what I was going to say before I said it. They didn't have that same burning desire to "do well for me" each and every week. When a student/teacher relationship reaches this stage, it is time for them to move on, as hard as it may be for all the parties involved.

[m1469]

It's a tricky balancing act. One of the best ways to motivate students is to forge a good relationship with them so that they want to please you, so that they want your affirmation and approval. This always works better than scaring them with your wraith if they fail to meet your expectations.

At the same time, too much of a buddy-buddy relationship brings about a comfort level that does not always lead to pushing the student to their full potential. I've had some students that I started as young children who had grown up to be fine high-school aged musicians. But I recognized that it was time for them to switch teachers. Our relationship had become so familiar that they could practically anticipate what I was going to say before I said it. They didn't have that same burning desire to "do well for me" each and every week. When a student/teacher relationship reaches this stage, it is time for them to move on, as hard as it may be for all the parties involved.

I think the extent to which all of this happens is extremely dependent upon the individual, that individual's tendencies towards endeavors and people in general, and what their goals actually are.  I had one high school student who probably had a pretty great potential but never appeared to have a burning musical desire despite her potential.  At one point I did have to make a decision about certain things regarding our interaction, and I also learned a lot about student/teacher dynamics, too!  I do agree that too much buddy-buddy *can* potentially lead *some* individuals into not achieving their potential.

And, all of this is currently somewhat different than who I am as a student, besides!

Personally, even though it's important for me to feel like my teachers and I are not fundamentally opposing each other, there is more to it for me than whether or not we are just buddy-buddy or whether or not I am pleasing them (not that I want there to be unhappiness) or whether or not I am scared of them.  For some people, I think one-dimensional interactions DO work (at least for a time), like constantly being scared or constantly wanting to please or whatever.  But, when I look into each individual student, the first thing I am looking for is how they relate to music and the second is how can I best help them with that, considering them as a whole?  In most cases I've had to learn to greatly temper my expectations if I wish to have a job - as well as to better define to myself what I am personally rather wanting for myself vs. what I'm trying to impose upon my students.  There is a particular element that I feel would take care of certain issues, which I am still growing into!

[nadia goh]

Hi eveyone. i am a student actually but i'd like to ask dear fellow teachers. i recently changed my piano teacher. she teaches really well except for the fact that she treats me like a small kid. she likes to mimic the way i play because i've been playing without curving my fingers properly but the way she puts it somehow makes me feel like i intentionally play using the wrong technique. and she also likes to downgrade her speech when talking to me, but im an adult and i don't feel comfortable when she does that. should i stop taking lesson from her or should i persevere in this lesson for she teaches me good technique?

[m1469]

I think the extent to which all of this happens is extremely dependent upon the individual, that individual's tendencies towards endeavors and people in general, and what their goals actually are.  I had one high school student who probably had a pretty great potential but never appeared to have a burning musical desire despite her potential.  At one point I did have to make a decision about certain things regarding our interaction, and I also learned a lot about student/teacher dynamics, too!  I do agree that too much buddy-buddy *can* potentially lead *some* individuals into not achieving their potential.

Apparently I've got more to say about this!  In her case, I had to eat my ego a bit because what I came to feel was my role with her was not what I would have imagined as my star-role in life as a teacher.  When she got to high school (she just graduated this last Spring and is off to college studying theatre tech.), it became apparent that she had other interests which were more important to her than piano/music, and aside from that was having some normal kinds of issues with home-life and figuring out who she is, etc..  I had a decision to make in that, I realized that even though sometime down the road she might grow passionately interested in music and in developing her talents in those ways, it just wasn't my role to use every trick I've learned in the book with her, and to reveal all of the wonderfully beautiful aspects of the endeavor to her!  My role was basically to help her learn about herself and to keep her from hating music and the piano, and to introduce her to some ideas and pieces so that at some point, she could look back to them and have some kind of foundation to either just remember and enjoy, or to move forward from.

AND, I had to decide this, knowing perfectly well that it may very well be another person's role to really work with her in a way that fits her higher potential if/when she is more interested in developing that ... even if she thinks less of me at that point!  She is a person with a high intellect and several talents, and I would check in with her periodically in different ways to find out what her relationship is with music, and sometimes be frank and let her know that there is more to it than what she's currently experiencing with me.  Her interest was sporadic at best, and there really wasn't much I could change about that to turn it into something more consistent, yet I still felt called to having a role in her life.  Maybe somebody else could have served a different role and maybe that will be the role of another teacher in her life, but it wasn't mine.  I actually consider very deeply what my role as a person and as a teacher is with each individual and, I feel I did the best I could with where we were both at in our lives.  Does that mean she'll inevitably look back and be super grateful to me?  Who knows?  But I think ultimately it's not about me and how she feels about me, despite the fact that I might have different imaginations about my role in life as a teacher.

[m1469]

Hi eveyone. i am a student actually but i'd like to ask dear fellow teachers. i recently changed my piano teacher. she teaches really well except for the fact that she treats me like a small kid. she likes to mimic the way i play because i've been playing without curving my fingers properly but the way she puts it somehow makes me feel like i intentionally play using the wrong technique. and she also likes to downgrade her speech when talking to me, but im an adult and i don't feel comfortable when she does that. should i stop taking lesson from her or should i persevere in this lesson for she teaches me good technique?

I don't know!  It depends on which one outweighs the other.  AND, whether or not she is really teaching you "good technique"!

[go12_3]

A teacher-student relationship can be a challenge, however, I have learned to listen to my students on how they play the piano.  I look at their body language to see if they are tense.  After awhile I know how my students are.  I value them as fine individuals and have formed a comfortable yet professional contact with them. There has to be warmth and laughter during the lesson because a stressed out student will not be learning much from the lesson at all. 

[m1469]

My relationship with my students is suddenly changing drastically, pretty much across the board.  Time for a BIG change.  

[Bob]

Cracking the whip with a group of students?

[m1469]

Yes, that is one element.  I can't believe certain things that have recently come to my attention!  I guess I'm happy that I'm learning, though. 

[dcstudio]

Yes, that is one element.  I can't believe certain things that have recently come to my attention!  I guess I'm happy that I'm learning, though. 

...I so understand.      Maybe you and I don't disagree as much as you think we do   Going through that all myself right now.    can be tough on the old ego at times.

[m1469]

...I so understand.     Maybe you and I don't disagree as much as you think we do  Going through that all myself right now.    can be tough on the old ego at times.

Perhaps we even disagree less than you think we do!  In any event, yes, I have had students come and go, but this one was different.  I seriously invested in this student for a number of years and gave very much to this person, opening both my home and my studio, and myself to some extent as well.  In reality, I see, each individual investment goes into my studio overall, even if it seems to go towards individual students, but my perspective has greatly changed in the past couple of weeks.  It's not that I'm going to close myself off, but if I ever happened to work with this person again, it would certainly not be with the same relationship - even just two weeks later (and in fact it was changing over time anyway).  

In this case, I find myself reviewing very many things in my piano and music life.  I don't know how most teachers feel, but personally I feel I've turned myself inside out to have particular bits of information to pass along to my students, not to mention the financial and time investments even (FAR) beyond formal schooling that I've made and continue to make.  And, I've always taken the attitude that I want to do the best by my students in terms of offering whatever information I could.  But, when I start weighing out the number of years it's taken me and the personal investments I've made towards it, it doesn't seem to add up when I offer it so easily to them.  Even in paid lessons at a decent price, but especially towards a seemingly thankless endeavor.

Do all teachers feel that way?

In any event, I of course appreciate my teachers even more.  But, I feel a little bit like I'm not sure how close to hold my cards (not necessarily personal but even professional) with my students, while at the same time needing to crack the whip more.  Is there anything we can do in music which adequately matches the personal sacrifices we may make to be able to do it?  I don't know.

[m1469]

Here I am again, suddenly  .  

In this case, as a teacher I tried to make up for pretty much everything I myself had felt I had missed as a student over the years.  I thought that was part of what I could learn from my past -good and bad experiences alike- and that I could be a better teacher because of it.  In fact, I thought that was my very job as a conscientious musician!  And, perhaps that's actually true. However, I do very clearly see that it doesn't work when the person you're doing that with just hasn't got the same needs.  So, as a teacher I feel I need to get better at reading what the real needs are and be able to meet them for what they truly are.  And I want to get better at choosing the right students to begin with - another lesson being clearly, clearly more defined!

[m1469]

Okay, one last thing.  For some reason it feels like the end of a certain era in my teaching.  It somehow marks a definite change in my teaching and in how I think about it. 

[dcstudio]

Okay, one last thing.  For some reason it feels like the end of a certain era in my teaching.  It somehow marks a definite change in my teaching and in how I think about it. 

Wow, m1469--don't know what we ever disagreed on.  I think we are just trying to solve the same problem.   Trying to give them information that took years to acquire, understand, and apply to your playing--sometimes it seems not fair that I should try so hard to help them.  Some just flat out don't believe you.  I had an adult student recently who drove me up the wall.  A praise-band pianist who had lost his "chops" or so he told me. Keep in mind--this guy got paid to play the piano. The guy didn't read music, didn't want to learn to read, but wanted me to teach him theory because he thought that would "cure" him of his performance anxiety.  (I know...right?...)  Thing is, his issues went far beyond a lack of theory knowledge or technical prowess.  I labored to teach this boy (28yrs old) basic concepts of chord analysis and jazz theory--because that is what he asked me for.   I had hoped that once he realized his ideas didn't help him like he thought they would that maybe he would trust me enough to help him.  He was one of those students who loved to ramble on through his lesson about his personal life, too.  He was like a vampire --draining me each week of my energy and leaving me feeling weak for the rest of my students.  (talked...on and on) 

I really should have known that this one was probably never going to work out.  I am a never say never girl though...  So I busted my A$$ so that he learned what he asked me for, it didn't work, and he is currently not my student anymore....end of story?  I can only hope.

lol...now you know why I have been saying how everyone is "responsible for their own musical education...." ha ha ha there are some we just can't reach....at least not right now...maybe someday....ahhhhh see I just can't let it go...arghhh   

[tb230]

I had an adult student recently who drove me up the wall.  A praise-band pianist who had lost his "chops" or so he told me. Keep in mind--this guy got paid to play the piano. The guy didn't read music, didn't want to learn to read, but wanted me to teach him theory because he thought that would "cure" him of his performance anxiety.  (I know...right?...)  Thing is, his issues went far beyond a lack of theory knowledge or technical prowess.  I labored to teach this boy (28yrs old) basic concepts of chord analysis and jazz theory--because that is what he asked me for.   I had hoped that once he realized his ideas didn't help him like he thought they would that maybe he would trust me enough to help him.  He was one of those students who loved to ramble on through his lesson about his personal life, too.  He was like a vampire --draining me each week of my energy and leaving me feeling weak for the rest of my students.  (talked...on and on) 

I find this discussion very interesting, although I can only look at it from a student's point of view. I have once had a teacher who behaved like this and used the lesson as a perfect opportunity to discuss personal problems and other issues. The one-to-one situation between teacher and student can be very intimate and the trust required can be misused by both parties; I used to leave my lessons feeling like psychologist paying my patient! I guess I still learned something from the experience, though, and used that to set my standards when I was looking for a new teacher. In particular, it has been important for me to define a set of objectives, long-term and short-term goals together with the teacher so we both have a common understanding or framework for the lessons.   

[dcstudio]

I find this discussion very interesting, although I can only look at it from a student's point of view. I have once had a teacher who behaved like this and used the lesson as a perfect opportunity to discuss personal problems and other issues. The one-to-one situation between teacher and student can be very intimate and the trust required can be misused by both parties; I used to leave my lessons feeling like psychologist paying my patient! I guess I still learned something from the experience, though, and used that to set my standards when I was looking for a new teacher. In particular, it has been important for me to define a set of objectives, long-term and short-term goals together with the teacher so we both have a common understanding or framework for the lessons.   

sounds to me like you are not at all like this student   objectives and goals are great and necessary and welcomed -- at least by this teacher.  this boy --lets call him Joe--came to me and said he was having performance anxiety and it was affecting his job as a praise band pianist.  His thought that theory would "cure" this--but he had nothing to build the theory on--no foundation.  Amazingly--he could play quite well and he  had an ear that impressed me to know end.  He is very very talented. Sometimes personal problems can have a devastating affect on performance--to discuss the possibilities in a lesson can be helpful.  However, I am not a professional psychiatrist or I would charge WAY more...  I taught him what he asked me to teach him--in between his stories--but of course he still gets butterflies every Sunday when he has to play.

anyway

[m1469]

Wow, m1469--don't know what we ever disagreed on.  I think we are just trying to solve the same problem.   Trying to give them information that took years to acquire, understand, and apply to your playing--sometimes it seems not fair that I should try so hard to help them.  Some just flat out don't believe you.  I had an adult student recently who drove me up the wall.  A praise-band pianist who had lost his "chops" or so he told me. Keep in mind--this guy got paid to play the piano. The guy didn't read music, didn't want to learn to read, but wanted me to teach him theory because he thought that would "cure" him of his performance anxiety.  (I know...right?...)  Thing is, his issues went far beyond a lack of theory knowledge or technical prowess.  I labored to teach this boy (28yrs old) basic concepts of chord analysis and jazz theory--because that is what he asked me for.   I had hoped that once he realized his ideas didn't help him like he thought they would that maybe he would trust me enough to help him.  He was one of those students who loved to ramble on through his lesson about his personal life, too.  He was like a vampire --draining me each week of my energy and leaving me feeling weak for the rest of my students.  (talked...on and on)  

I really should have known that this one was probably never going to work out.  I am a never say never girl though...  So I busted my A$$ so that he learned what he asked me for, it didn't work, and he is currently not my student anymore....end of story?  I can only hope.

lol...now you know why I have been saying how everyone is "responsible for their own musical education...." ha ha ha there are some we just can't reach....at least not right now...maybe someday....ahhhhh see I just can't let it go...arghhh    

Not exactly the same, but I can appreciate what you are saying.  One of the things though that I have realized is just how much thought I put into this person even while not in her lessons (I just got used to it being there almost all the time without knowing it), and just how much I let it govern my own life in a negative way as it drained me, too.  There are reasons it was draining and that's the point where I should've spoken up, but I didn't because I was trying to keep in mind her own ego!  haha.  What I didn't realize is that it was holding my own progress back!  And, I guess what is surprising for me about this is that I didn't realize these things!!  How the?  What the?  I didn't know I am the type of person who would let a student hold me back.  In the first week since then, I would still automatically be thinking of pieces for her and find myself in concern for her, and then realize what I was doing!  bah and meh combined.  
 
I just feel even more grateful to my teachers and recognize that this can be some tricky business!

In any event, the situation you described, as with what I am talking about, are perfect examples of needing to hone in on what is really needed and go with that, and the student's job to follow.  But, still having butterflies when performing ... seems pretty normal.

*time to prep*

[dcstudio]

Not exactly the same, but I can appreciate what you are saying.  One of the things though that I have realized is just how much thought I put into this person even while not in her lessons (I just got used to it being there almost all the time without knowing it), and just how much I let it govern my own life in a negative way as it drained me, too.  There are reasons it was draining and that's the point where I should've spoken up, but I didn't because I was trying to keep in mind her own ego!  haha.  What I didn't realize is that it was holding my own progress back!  And, I guess what is surprising for me about this is that I didn't realize these things!!  How the?  What the?  I didn't know I am the type of person who would let a student hold me back.  In the first week since then, I would still automatically be thinking of pieces for her and find myself in concern for her, and then realize what I was doing!  bah and meh combined.  
 
I just feel even more grateful to my teachers and recognize that this can be some tricky business!

In any event, the situation you described, as with what I am talking about, are perfect examples of needing to hone in on what is really needed and go with that, and the student's job to follow.  But, still having butterflies when performing ... seems pretty normal.

*time to prep*

he had many issues...  but that is not my problem any more.   I am free!!    

I have freed myself from many "draining" students recently.  In fact I have all but quit teaching piano for now.  I went back to performing for a living--which is draining too--but in a different and much more positive way.  I have no students to prepare for today--just gotta play 3 sets tonight...ahhhh   Guess maybe I should not post in the teaching threads since right now I officially have NO STUDENTS

Sure that will change soon.  I will miss teaching and go pick up some students---but for now--for the first time in 15 years I have an empty student roster--well almost--anyway.  I feel so liberated and free!!

ok so now you know... 

[m1469]

he had many issues...  but that is not my problem any more.   I am free!!

Actually, that had been my mantra for a few days and I even posted it on sticky notes on my acoustic and digital pianos, as well as on the mirror:  "Not my problem anymore!"

Then, of course, my mind still won a little bit, since I'm still a teacher, I still want to be a teacher, and I still want to learn always.  I kick myself about my own self, that's what really gets me.  One of the main things I kick myself over is having been somewhat fixated on this person in such a way that I didn't see what I needed to be seeing in my own life.  I certainly don't need to keep doing that very thing!  My studio has changed quite a bit over the years, and this student was with me for really quite a few and we just didn't fit anymore.  Now, I see that I have actually a number of quite talented, interested, and generally respectful students who need my attention in the right ways and that's where my focus needs to be.  I am happy to give it.  Most of all, I want to be a better teacher (and student of music), as well as seeing who are for me the right people to invest in, and I guess this is how learning takes place.  I still believe in teaching with my heart but the meaning of that is becoming more defined for me at the time.

One thing that I have realized of late, not sure in conjunction with what, exactly, is that I really do need to teach.  I've always felt like I'd like to continue doing so in my life almost no matter what, but I realized even more clearly that I have something to give in this way and if I were not teaching, my life would feel as though it had a void.  I think this is a good thing to know about myself and my teaching.  Teaching can take different forms, for example, I would like my performing to ultimately be something that resembles teaching.  The main point though, is that I have a deep need to help others explore, develop, and progress musically and personally.

[dcstudio]

Actually, that had been my mantra for a few days and I even posted it on sticky notes on my acoustic and digital pianos, as well as on the mirror:  "Not my problem anymore!"

Then, of course, my mind still won a little bit, since I'm still a teacher, I still want to be a teacher, and I still want to learn always.  I kick myself about my own self, that's what really gets me.  One of the main things I kick myself over is having been somewhat fixated on this person in such a way that I didn't see what I needed to be seeing in my own life.  I certainly don't need to keep doing that very thing!  My studio has changed quite a bit over the years, and this student was with me for really quite a few and we just didn't fit anymore.  Now, I see that I have actually a number of quite talented, interested, and generally respectful students who need my attention in the right ways and that's where my focus needs to be.  I am happy to give it.  Most of all, I want to be a better teacher (and student of music), as well as seeing who are for me the right people to invest in, and I guess this is how learning takes place.  I still believe in teaching with my heart but the meaning of that is becoming more defined for me at the time.

One thing that I have realized of late, not sure in conjunction with what, exactly, is that I really do need to teach.  I've always felt like I'd like to continue doing so in my life almost no matter what, but I realized even more clearly that I have something to give in this way and if I were not teaching, my life would feel as though it had a void.  I think this is a good thing to know about myself and my teaching.  Teaching can take different forms, for example, I would like my performing to ultimately be something that resembles teaching.  The main point though, is that I have a deep need to help others explore, develop, and progress musically and personally.

performing and teaching--hmmm   I do something like that now that I gave up the weekly student thing.   I have been performing in schools--especially for the special ed kids.  It is really fun, too. something about sitting at the piano with a bunch of eager faces begging you to play and loving everything they hear--no matter what--that is just magical.  

they really love the Peanuts tunes--Vince Guaraldi is always great for kids.   then I might slide in a classical piece and then I take requests. it is great.

[thinkgreenlovepiano]

I'm a student lurking this thread... and I'm just wondering... what causes a student to be "draining"?

I'm just curious, sometimes I wonder if I'm draining on my teacher...

[m1469]

I'm a student lurking this thread... and I'm just wondering... what causes a student to be "draining"?

I'm just curious, sometimes I wonder if I'm draining on my teacher...

I think that for the most part, it could all be whittled down to there being a mismatch in expectations between student and teacher - probably very much the same as any other form of relationship.

[m1469]

Ok - Things, they are a'changin'.  Right now I have a mixed studio with some who are used to me being a certain way, and other newer ones who I'm puttin' the smack down on.  I'm going to really start putting much more smack down on pretty much everybody and see who can handle it.  I got a reminder today with a couple of students who really can hardly handle me pushing them *at all* ... and, it helped me realize quite a bit.  My inner teacher, though, is really chomping at the bit as I am changing.  

Yesterday evening I met with a new adult student who has played on and off for years, who plays reasonably well, and who is making a healthy jaunt to me for her lessons with me.  As she played, I felt myself being in a certain mode (like being just the shell) that I am used to being in with some students.  I realized I had to make a decision and basically said, "look, lady, this is how it's all going to be goin' down or you can walk right out that door and never, I mean, *never* come back.  Capeesh?"  (I know that's not anywhere close to the proper spelling).  She looked at me and said "that's exactly what I want!  I've had teachers say "well, you can work on this piece" etc., but I feel like I've never really learned the fundamentals and I want the fundamentals."  And I said "Yeah, I'm just not teaching like that (the other way) anymore" ... so that's good and it was a good lesson.  Now, hopefully she understands the whole practice situation but I think she's working pretty hard for the lessons, so I think she realizes it will take effort to get the most out of them.  

And, my first lesson today was with a quite talented young lady who needed a push and I gave her one last week, basically telling her that if she didn't get on a practice routine I was going to kick her out (not in those exact words, but she got the idea) - and I really meant it.  We mapped out a plan and she seems to have actually put at least *some* time in and today I was picky, picky, picky with her and I didn't hold back.  I HATE holding back  .  I LOVEE being picky  .  

And sometimes today, I made my inners so huge that I purposely fill up the entire room with them and stomp out bad attitudes.  That's what I did with one student today without her even knowing.  Now ... what more needs to be done ... *plots and schemes*

I will begin meeting with another new, fairly talented student next week, too  .  And, I've got several others I'm inspired to be a better teacher for.

*unleashes a little bit o'thunder*

Also, something that I am doing lately is being really serious and telling them exactly what I expect and I really on my entire self inside and out expect it and I can tell they realize I really expect it. 

*more changes need to continue*

[m1469]

*more changes need to continue*

And so they do!  Yesterday I used my inners to gently suggest to an elder woman who I've had for quite a number of years that perhaps it was time she thought about taking a break (well, there was a very natural time to ask a question that made it seem like her idea) - this was another quite draining relationship for the time in our lessons.  I like the woman well enough, but it is clearly time for a change.  She called this evening to let me know that she had been thinking it over last night and today and she just felt it was time for a change.  A cordial parting and she'll still be bringing her grandkids, so I'll still see her when she drops them off!  OK!