Wierd time signature

[thalbergmad]

I do not understand the strange looking time signature.

How is it possible to have three and what is the point of the + and the brackets?

Do not recall seeing anything like this before and I am in a state of confusion.

Thal

[stevebob]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_signature#Additive_meters

[thalbergmad]

Gawd, i think i had better sober up before reading all of that.

Thal

[richard black]

That's simply an attempt at clarifying that by 9/8 he (she?) means three groups of two quavers and one group of three. Bartok might have written (2+2+2+3)/8. (See 'Dances in Bulgarian Rhythm' from 'Mikrokosmos'.)

I recently played a piece with a 5/6 time signature. Takes a bit of head-scratching until one realises it just means 5 triplet crotchets.

[retrouvailles]

That cluster notation tells me that that is a work by Galina Ustvolskaya. Correct?

[thalbergmad]

That is rather impressive old chap, as whilst you are incorrect, it is Boris Tishchenko who
i understand was a pupil of Ustvolskaya.

I also understand he also wrote a concerto for 48 cellos. I guess 47 was simply not enough.

Damned good show.

Thal

[retrouvailles]

It was actually a concerto for cello solo with 48 cellos as an accompaniment. He is a rather interesting composer, more so than his teacher, who sounded too "bare bones" to me. I haven't seen many Tishchenko scores, though, regrettably.

[scottmcc]

it would seem that thalbergmad is becoming a bit of a modernist...gasp.

dave brubeck wrote with a lot of weird time signatures, if you´re into the jazz.  I´m away from my scores at the moment, but I seem to recall that just about the entire album "Time Out" was written in similar fashion, most notably Blue Rondo a la Turk in (2+2+2+3/8), and of course the exceptionally famous "Take Five" in 5/4 (although the ubiquitous elevator versions seem to often force it into 4/4).

I read an article once about the ustvolskaya lady, and all I can remember of it was her penchant for weird, unconventional notations such as the clusters mentioned above. 

[retrouvailles]

A lot of composers who get influence from Bulgarian music, for example, such as Bartók, tend to use additive meters. Just look at Bartók's 6 dances in Bulgarian rhythm.

[gep]

It was actually a concerto for cello solo with 48 cellos as an accompaniment. He is a rather interesting composer, more so than his teacher, who sounded too "bare bones" to me. I haven't seen many Tishchenko scores, though, regrettably.

To be precise, his 2nd Cello Concerto, for solo-cello and 48 celli, 12 double basses and percussion op. 44/1, written 1969 (to the joy of the apparatchniks such as Kabalevsky and Khrennikov, no doubt!) Op. 44/2 is the version of same for solo-cello, (normal) string orchestra and percussion.
He's indeed quite interesting, I love his (2nd) Violin Concerto. He's written a Piano Concerto (Thal no doubt has it), a Concerto for Flute, Piano and String Orchestra and a recent Double Concerto for Violin and Piano.

Certainly a composer worth discovering!

All best,
gep

[pianoladywong]

Hi Thai,

The time signature is 9/8. The parenthesis is showing how the composer breaks down the 9/8 time. 3/4 has 3 quarter notes or if you break it down into eighth notes, then it’s 6 eighth notes. The next time is 3/8, therefore 6 plus 3 is 9. The beat to accent is the 1st beat in 3/4 and the 1st beat in 3/8.

In order for you to count or subdivide it is 1, 2, 3, 1&2…. 1,2,3, 1&2…

[quantum]

I'd think it better to subdivide

1 & 2 & 3 & 1 & a

or

1 & 2 & 3 & 4 & a


In fact, I think the second option works more with the piece.  Because the composer is seems to be adding an eighth to 4/4. 


Using a number on a weak beat after only using them on strong beats would be inconsistent.

[thalbergmad]

All sounds a bit complex to me.

When I have sobered up I will read through this thread again.

Thal

[rachfan]

Hi Thal,

I recently ran into one of these odd time signatures in Catoire's "Chant du soir" from Op. 12.  It's marked 4/4(3/2).  According to the Harvard Dictionary of Music, 2nd Edition by Willi Apel, These time signatures evidently originated during the 17th century, but are still found occasionally in more modern music. They seem contradictory, but these signatures combine an aspect of the old mensural notation indications of "proportions" with the more modern metrical meaning as we know them today.  So in my example here of 4/4(3/2), it means that for any measure(s) containing just three quarter notes, those are equal in duration to the four quarter notes per measure in an immediately preceding section.  Thus, these "double time signatures" have a metronomic significance relative to the normal tempo of the piece.  

As for the Catoire piece, once I got my brain around the weird time signature concept, I searched the piece for any pertinent measure(s) with three quarters where a half note equaled a beat--there were none!  It was like... wha???  At that point, being even more bewildered, I played the piece as I saw it in 4/4 (seems like Marc Hamelin did likewise) and it was fine.  Sometimes instinct beats mathematical calculation.

If you're confused, just play the piece!  

[retrouvailles]

A 4/4(3/2) time signature (or similar) is often times used when a composer uses a lot of triplets, most likely three triplet half notes and any subdivisions. Rather than write out all of the possible tuplets and/or time signature changes, that parentheses time signature provides a good catch-all for notating these rhythms. Sure, in more romantic and/or western music in general, it might not make a difference. However, in music that has a strong folk music influence or more modern music, it can make a huge difference, for the composer might want each of these new beats to be clearly accented and not sound like a syncopation, so just "playing the piece" might not work best. Just look at works like the Bartók dances in Bulgarian rhythm or the last movement of the Kapustin second piano sonata (two very different but good examples of these meters).