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Topic: Liszt Ballade #2 - L.H. Fingering (Read 6620 times)

the romantic

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Liszt Ballade #2 - L.H. Fingering

on: August 01, 2010, 05:22:51 AM

Hello all,

I have a Henle Edition of this piece, and the L.H. fingering for the opening passage is marked like this:

413213213 1 312312314

Is there any reason that it would be marked in this way, and not with the more obvious:

421313212 1 212313124

Why do they mark the score with such unusual fingerings?? I remember reading about Liszt marking Mazeppa with some unnatural fingerings in order to give the music a different feel. Any ideas about this one?

Thanks!

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viking

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Re: Liszt Ballade #2 - L.H. Fingering

Reply #1 on: August 01, 2010, 07:58:03 AM

Henle Sucks

If I have time I'll send you my fingering

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ramseytheii

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Re: Liszt Ballade #2 - L.H. Fingering

Reply #2 on: August 01, 2010, 12:26:31 PM

Quote from: the romantic on August 01, 2010, 05:22:51 AM

Hello all,

I have a Henle Edition of this piece, and the L.H. fingering for the opening passage is marked like this:

413213213 1 312312314

Is there any reason that it would be marked in this way, and not with the more obvious:

421313212 1 212313124

Why do they mark the score with such unusual fingerings?? I remember reading about Liszt marking Mazeppa with some unnatural fingerings in order to give the music a different feel. Any ideas about this one?

Thanks!

Sometimes Henle does use fingerings which are irritating. The editors there tend to overthink things, and often the fingerings are written to point out a musical idea (this is how they get around the constraints of the urtext philosophy) and often are not practical.

I don't play the Second Ballade, but I can see right away why they did it: they are emphasizing the F#-B in each bar. If you play with 4-2-1 instead of their 4-1, it is very possible that you will just plow right through. They are essentially using their position as editors to show how they think it should sound.

Like I said, I don't play it, but I like the idea based on looking at it. It seems reasonable to play, and musically it makes sense. You want this passage to have clarity.

The issue for me is, if they want to edit music and tell people how they think it should sound, they should get out of the urtext racket.

Walter Ramsey

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the romantic

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Re: Liszt Ballade #2 - L.H. Fingering

Reply #3 on: August 01, 2010, 01:34:52 PM

Quote from: ramseytheii on August 01, 2010, 12:26:31 PM

Sometimes Henle does use fingerings which are irritating. The editors there tend to overthink things, and often the fingerings are written to point out a musical idea (this is how they get around the constraints of the urtext philosophy) and often are not practical.

I don't play the Second Ballade, but I can see right away why they did it: they are emphasizing the F#-B in each bar. If you play with 4-2-1 instead of their 4-1, it is very possible that you will just plow right through. They are essentially using their position as editors to show how they think it should sound.

Like I said, I don't play it, but I like the idea based on looking at it. It seems reasonable to play, and musically it makes sense. You want this passage to have clarity.

The issue for me is, if they want to edit music and tell people how they think it should sound, they should get out of the urtext racket.

Walter Ramsey

I see!! Yes, now you mention it, those notes do need to be emphasized slightly more - and it is a lot easier to race through with the fingering I'm using. But how do we know that the editors have put this in, and not Liszt himself?

Thanks a lot for the replies!

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ramseytheii

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Re: Liszt Ballade #2 - L.H. Fingering

Reply #4 on: August 01, 2010, 06:49:54 PM

Quote from: the romantic on August 01, 2010, 01:34:52 PM

I see!! Yes, now you mention it, those notes do need to be emphasized slightly more - and it is a lot easier to race through with the fingering I'm using. But how do we know that the editors have put this in, and not Liszt himself?

Thanks a lot for the replies!

That's a good point, I don't know, but the way to find out is to either look at the manuscript, or look at early editions, and see if the fingering is in there. I think both are available on imslp.org

Walter Ramsey

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avetma

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Re: Liszt Ballade #2 - L.H. Fingering

Reply #5 on: August 01, 2010, 09:40:11 PM

I prefer 4 21432132 1 231234124.

With that fingering you avoid thumb on some white keys (so called "Mozart fingering") and that gives the wind-like sound, where you hear only motion, but not separated notes.

Hope it helps.

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tsaij

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Re: Liszt Ballade #2 - L.H. Fingering

Reply #6 on: August 02, 2010, 01:05:21 AM

Quote from: the romantic on August 01, 2010, 01:34:52 PM

But how do we know that the editors have put this in, and not Liszt himself?

a lot of times there will be a difference in typeface for editorial suggestions vs. those from the composer's hand-- e.g. italics, smaller print, parentheses. i don't have the henle edition but check, for example, the allegretto in f-sharp after the introduction-- those fingerings in the r.h. (2/1 3/1 5/2) are liszt's.

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ramseytheii

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Re: Liszt Ballade #2 - L.H. Fingering

Reply #7 on: August 02, 2010, 03:12:48 AM

Quote from: avetma on August 01, 2010, 09:40:11 PM

I prefer 4 21432132 1 231234124.

With that fingering you avoid thumb on some white keys (so called "Mozart fingering") and that gives the wind-like sound, where you hear only motion, but not separated notes.

Hope it helps.

I think this is where the Henle fingering is productive because, you are partly right that the aesthetic is a wind-like wave, but since Liszt wrote that upbeat of a fourth, I think it has more prominence than the notes of the chromatic scale; it deserves to be heard more clearly. It's the rhythmic backbone essentially.

So sometimes they have inspiring ideas, if not exactly urtextual ones. Their idea for this passage still depends on an interpretation, even if it is an interpretation strongly supported by musical evidence.

Walter Ramsey

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the romantic

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Re: Liszt Ballade #2 - L.H. Fingering

Reply #8 on: August 04, 2010, 12:20:54 AM

Quote from: tsaij on August 02, 2010, 01:05:21 AM

....i don't have the henle edition but check, for example, the allegretto in f-sharp after the introduction-- those fingerings in the r.h. (2/1 3/1 5/2) are liszt's.

Yes, those fingerings are in my edition. I'll also check out imslp as Walter suggested.

Thanks for all the replies!

EDIT: Wow!! I didn't know they had copies of the ACTUAL manuscript there!!!!

Anyway, you were right Walter, those fingerings have been added by Henle, because they are not in the original manuscript or in the first edition. Now I'm going to gt my Claudio Arrau DVD and see if I can make out his fingering.

Thanks again!

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liordavid

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Posts: 169

Re: Liszt Ballade #2 - L.H. Fingering

Reply #9 on: September 12, 2010, 12:05:08 AM

In my opinion the fingering should what is easiest for the articulation which should be smooth and in triplets.

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jbmorel78

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Re: Liszt Ballade #2 - L.H. Fingering

Reply #10 on: September 19, 2010, 04:50:24 PM

In all honesty, I think that the reason that the editors chose 4-1 rather than 4-2 is that the latter imposes an unnecessary stretch . . . Dear Walter, I don't think the editing is as heavy handed as you suggest (heh, heh)

JBM

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