HS doctor_ivory and brain

[okoie]

Don't warry anymore about this topic! It is simply a matter of anatomy and phisiology.The coordination(of the 2 hands) depends:1) on a structure of the brain(named by the anatomists corpus callosum) that contains nervous fibers connecting the two halves (of the brain),2)the speed at which the informations run inside these fibers: the more the fibers and/or the more the speed the easier and faster the coordination.So, when it comes easy for you to play HT do it and go ahead!! I think you have simply  received a gift by nature,because all the people i know,and me too,learn faster and safely HS almost all pieces.

[doctor_ivory]

I study a lot of neurophysiology at university and what Okoie says is actually incorrect (though, I appreciate the inquisitiveness).  Motor coordination is not dependent on the Corpus Callosum.

Motor co-ordination is dependent upon the motor cortex, cerebellum, and basal ganglia.  Most people's brains are wired in such a way that the limbs on your right side are controlled by the left half of your brain and the limbs on your left by the left half of your brain (this is a slight oversimplification however).  So you would say in psycho-babble that your right hand is controled contralaterally.  

The corpus callosum is a major source of communication between the two Right and Left hemispheres.  When you initially learn a motor task your brain is mostly dependent upon the Primary Motor Cortex Cortex and Cerebellum.  But as that task becomes more practised a new (and much faster) neural circuit develops between the Primary Motor Cortex, Supplementary Motor Cortex, and Basal Ganglia.

If you learn HT first your brain automatically, because of its contralateral wiring, learns HS. However, lets say you learn a piece HT and never ever try to play it HS until it is learned very well, in other words you have learned to such a point that the basal ganglia and supplementary motor cortex have taken over.  If you do this then it will be hard to play the piece HS.  What has happened is your brain has actually "chunked" the piece into a entire unit to more easily retrieve it and process it faster.  i.e. Your brain went from viewing your piece as two independent behaviours (i.e. a right hand behaviour and a left hand behaviour) into one single behaviour.
So to put it more simply, whether you choose to learn a piece HS or HT, initially, your brain sees the behaviour of performing as HS regardless.

This is actually the main reason I supposed learning a peice HS was unnessesary, but for obvious reasons I avoided the issue.

[_nisa_]

Very interesting! Thank you!

I have a question coming in mind:

This is actually the main reason I supposed learning a peice HS was unnessesary

I got your point.
However, learning a piece HT in the very beginning of the study is a lot of information for the brain. As the brain can treat a limited amount of information at a time, isn't it easier in a first time to learn the piece HS to treat less information and to work HT a bit later?

[doctor_ivory]

Very interesting! Thank you!

I have a question coming in mind:
I got your point.
However, learning a piece HT in the very beginning of the study is a lot of information for the brain. As the brain can treat a limited amount of information at a time, isn't it easier in a first time to learn the piece HS to treat less information and to work HT a bit later?

The answer is: it depends.  You can't actually boil learning down into a all or nothing statement like it is always more efficient to learn HS first or it is always more efficient to learn HT first.

The first thing that has to be realized is that even when, for instance, you learn only the right hand parts of a piece the brain doesn't process it as one single behaviour but rather as just a particular sequence of smaller behaviours you have already learned.  Only once it is seriously practised for a long time can it be understood as a single behaviour (or specific pattern of neural firing).

Without getting to complex, all behaviours (with some biological exceptions) are built from slight variations on previously existing behaviours that are already in a persons behavioural repertoire.  So if you are learning a bar with a left hand that contains notes and rhythm that is like nothing you have ever encountered before and a slightly complex right hand.  Then it is going to be to your benefit to learn that left hand separately and then combine it with the right hand because the combination of the RH and LH is a more complex behaviour than the LH alone.  However, this assumes you are taking the entire bar as one musical chunk.  It is on the other hand be possible (depending on the music) to efficiently practice HT by simply breaking the bar down into smaller behaviours you can already basically execute.  Based on my own experience what usually ends up happening on really difficult bars is one hand is really complex and the other hand is relatively easy and I find I can simply use the latter method and break the bar down and I thus don't need to practice HS.  But if both hands are really complex then I find easier to simply practice the bar hands separately.

What it boils down to is the complexity of the piece relative to your abilities, and how efficiently you can build behaviours.  I find that taking the maxim "learn your entire piece HS first and then learn it HT" is not always the most economical use of ones effort.  But I also would not say "always learn a piece HT no matter what" is any better.  I would say "learn a piece HT and split the hands to learn a tricky passage if you need to."

Hope this helps.


As a side note: Alfred Brendel (so I am told) would always practice pieces in the smallest possible chunks HT. He would make these chunks small enough that he was always able to practice the pieces he was learning at their required tempo.

[_nisa_]

Hope this helps.

Hell yeah!
I think i'm going to be more efficient thanks to your explanations.

My teacher always told me to work HS then HT, which i don't any longer because i am like in a hurry to work HT (i sometimes practice HS to work on the flow regularity, the ease or to get some speed, but it is quite rare).

Thanks also for the very useful details,

_Nisa_

[gyzzzmo]

Whether to play HT or switch to HS depends on how good you can sightread (and play) the passage. Its not really that complicated.

[njordan]

Thank you for explaning the biomechanics behind this all-important process. 

I typically play pieces HS at least once, but the purpose isn't to create motor memories.  It is to preview the piece so I know what to expect.  For example, which LH broken chords are in a certain passage, when the RH leaps what note is the target, what exceptions to the key signature appear, etc.  This learning is short-term frontal cortex memory, not brain stem/cerebellum.  I suppose simply sight-reading the piece with one's eyes and not playing it would have a similar benefit. 

Actually, I conduct this preview using HS, but periodically switch to HT.  An example of HT previewing is seeing the chords in a closing cadence in their entirety across both hands.  I also pick and choose what to preview at all, skipping the trivial parts. 

[lostinidlewonder]

This thread seems odd to me, a lot of praise for something which is not revealing anything at all really. I agree sight reading skills are the key if you are worried about HT or HS you are simply not working on your sight reading enough.

[doctor_ivory]

This thread seems odd to me, a lot of praise for something which is not revealing anything at all really. I agree sight reading skills are the key if you are worried about HT or HS you are simply not working on your sight reading enough.

The thread is not that odd at all.  It is simply a continuation, by okoie, of a previous thread (posted by me) on why some instructors insist on learning a peice hands separate before ever trying to play hands together. 
https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=38135.msg430801#msg430801

Okoie posted some incorrect information on the neural basis of coordination, which I simply corrected.  The original question was why you should you be forced to learn moderately difficult pieces HS first and foremost before practising the piece HT.  The point revealed from all the psycho-babble is that it may not be strictly necessary, given what we currently know about the brain.