Chopin's pedal marks

[lostinidlewonder]

Not really, you are merely quoting him trying to debunk gyzzmo but it had nothing to do with what gyz was talking about. I was merely curious to test your conjecture.

If there was no repetition in this website, everyone would have left by  now.

[keyboardclass]

So, gyzzmo's: 'the usage of pedal is pretty straight forward; focus on purity of the melody and don't blur different chords together.'  has nothing to do with Banowetz's: 'Most textbooks relate a change of pedal to a change of harmony. Chopin's pedaling is frequently independent of the
harmony, as when harmonies are deliberately blurred together.'

[lostinidlewonder]

Because Bannowetz is talking about a specific situation, not in general. You need to read in context.

[gyzzzmo]

So, gyzzmo's: 'the usage of pedal is pretty straight forward; focus on purity of the melody and don't blur different chords together.'  has nothing to do with Banowetz's: 'Most textbooks relate a change of pedal to a change of harmony. Chopin's pedaling is frequently independent of the
harmony, as when harmonies are deliberately blurred together.'

I have indeed nothing to do with mr Banowetz. I play piano and pedal the way i think it sounds right and just gave a main indication what is involved: avoiding blurry chords (blurry harmonies if you like) and purity in melody. And this is about Chopin's music, just so you wont get confused.
In your eyes that statement might indeed be 'quite wrong', but as long as plenty of people are still willing to pay for my music, i'm just fine with your disaproval

Gyzzzmo

[keyboardclass]

Because Bannowetz is talking about a specific situation, not in general. You need to read in context.

This is Banowetz totally talking in general about Chopin's entire oeuvre!

Chopin's original pedal indications create more blurring on modern pianos than they would have on his instrument, and
that must be taken into account by today's performer. But this fact alone does not justify ignoring his directions. The pianist who evens out Chopin's pedal indications may be missing an important element of the compositional intent.

[keyboardclass]

I have indeed nothing to do with mr Banowetz. I play piano and pedal the way i think it sounds right and just gave a main indication what is involved: avoiding blurry chords (blurry harmonies if you like) and purity in melody. And this is about Chopin's music, just so you wont get confused.
In your eyes that statement might indeed be 'quite wrong', but as long as plenty of people are still willing to pay for my music, i'm just fine with your disaproval

Gyzzzmo

Sorry gyzzmo, that doesn't even deign a reply.

[lostinidlewonder]

This is Banowetz totally talking in general about Chopin's entire oeuvre!

I doubt it severely. If anyone tells me Chopin harmonies should generally be blurred like impressionistic music I will spit in their face Are you talking about horowitz one millionth of a second argument?

[keyboardclass]

Who's saying you blur all Chopin harmonies?  Where did that come from?  If they are marked to blur then blur!  Jeez.

[gyzzzmo]

Sorry gyzzmo, that doesn't even deign a reply.

Does that mean you agree?

[lostinidlewonder]

Who's saying you blur all Chopin harmonies?  Where did that come from?  If they are marked to blur then blur!  Jeez.

So now you finally realize he is talking about specific situations where we where talking about his music in general and why your initial statement that gyzzmo was mistaken is not valid.

[keyboardclass]

So now you finally realize he is talking about specific situations where we where talking about his music in general and why your initial statement that gyzzmo was mistaken is not valid.

This thread is about Chopin's Pedal Marks.  Not what should be done when there are none.

[gyzzzmo]

This thread is about Chopin's Pedal Marks.  Not what should be done when there are none.

Specificly about Chopin's Pedal Marks:
Ignore them.

Students should listen to their teacher how to use the pedal, and advanced pianists should use pedalling as their experience and personal style tells them where and how to use it.

But feel free to feel 'quite wrong' about this. Your excellent keyboardclass teacher (or are you a keyboard class teacher yourself?) has that job for an obvious reason 

Gyzzzmo

[keyboardclass]

or are you a keyboard class teacher yourself?

No, I'm an excellent keyboard class teacher!

[stevebob]

Specificly about Chopin's Pedal Marks:
Ignore them.

One would have to go the source even to know what Chopin's pedal marks are.  Otherwise one is possibly (or probably) seeing the editor's pedal marks instead, which might or might not hew to Chopin's intentions.

I'd be inclined to favor what Banowetz suggests—or even the directions of those allegedly drunk editors of the still-unspecified "many lesser" editions—over the advice of self-styled experts on an internet forum.

[ronde_des_sylphes]

Two important things to consider:

1.

Chopin's piano at the time is one that has even less resonance than the one we have, and thus holding down the pedal for entire bar's length is not a problem for Chopin - in fact it creates a nice coloristic effect! Today, it will simply blur everything in the bar.

2. One of the reasons there are so many editions of Chopin with often contrary indications (pedal, fingering, whatever) is that not only have so many editors over the years produced their own take on Chopin's original - but that (just to add to the confusion) there can often be more than one "original Chopin" ms. Chopin is known to have, on occasion, sold one ms to publisher x, then needed some more money, made minor editorial changes and sold the next ms to publisher y, and so on.

[keyboardclass]

You'll need to produce your sources for that.  Chopin sold his works to mostly either Wessel in London, Schlesinger in Paris and Breitkopf & Härtel in Leipzig.  These were his principal markets.  Each publisher had copyright for that country.  He would have been taken to court had he tried what you suggested. 

[lostinidlewonder]

This thread is about Chopin's Pedal Marks.  Not what should be done when there are none.

Then you should not have piped up and attempted to refute gyz. Just highlighting how you where wrong and how you tried to quote your favorite book but it had no relevance to what gyz was talking about. You might think that because that small instance in gyz reply mentioned not what Chopin wrote that it is irrelevant, it is not however, since Chopin purposefully missed out marking pedals in many of his pieces where the pedaling should be logical and obvious.

You will be hard pressed to find any edition in existence that highlights Chopins exact pedal markings, as has been pointed out already editors have put in a lot in this area. We do not need to produce sources for anything you do not understand because it merely highlights your lack of understanding and we are not here to educate you, we will highlight a point and its up to you to go look it up if you are interested. That we do not write a novel to explain things to you does not one bit highlight our lack of knowledge, but rather, our lack of wanting to spoonfeed information to people who we do not even know (or care about essentially).

[keyboardclass]

You will be hard pressed to find any edition in existence that highlights Chopins exact pedal markings,

https://chopin.lib.uchicago.edu/

[lostinidlewonder]

This does not highlight Chopins exact pedal markings as any edition that is not his autograph edition would have been edited.

[keyboardclass]

These are Chopin's.  He would have proofread each one and approved before any printing took place.  There is no editor - that's what a first edition is!

[lostinidlewonder]

spam

[prongated]

spam

[keyboardclass]

And you notice on the second paragraph they mention how the editors where very careless in preserving Chopin's original pedaling marks.

Please don't paraphrase Mr Hinson.  He said many publishers.  Also, he's writing before Chicago put practically every first edition on line.  You need to look through at least three first's of any composition (I find Breitkopf & Härtel to be most accurate in their pedal marks) and use you knowledge of Chopin's style (taken from manuscripts) to make informed decisions.

[lostinidlewonder]

Interesting too that the particular chapter you quoted happens to be written by one Maurice Hinson...basically if Chopin ever complained about it in his letters, then yes...otherwise I understand that many musicians simply do not regard Hinson's own editions of music/score.

I only said that this was written in the book that was being mentioned, I didn't bother saying who wrote it since I provided the link. I did mention "they" though it wasn't very descriptive I know.

Anyway lostin, in the end, regardless of what's original and what's not, I'm willing to bet that upon experiencing first hand pianos of Chopin's time, you will understand how it is that Chopin could possibly indicate in the score to pedal through entire bars.

Personally I don't care which edition I read when it comes to pedaling or teaching it. Although I have to say the reputable modern editions are a lot more reliable and legible than older editions. I think we can pedal Chopin through bars on modern piano also if we have the feminine soft touch at the keyboard that the man himself was admired and also critiqued to have. Modern piano is just so loud.

[keyboardclass]

An interesting aside - the first edition of the Preludes agree with Hinson's manuscript.  Prelude XVI is especially interesting.

[lostinidlewonder]

Please don't paraphrase Mr Hinson.  He said many publishers.  Also, he's writing before Chicago put practically every first edition on line.

I can do whatever I like it's a free world. The first editions would have been published before he even bothered to add:

"There is still no published version of his (Chopin's) works that includes all his original pedal indications, ..."

[keyboardclass]

Complete works well, no - there's always going to be an odd discrepancy.  But as I've show all of Hinson's manuscript examples tally with a first edition.  I'd be very surprised if Hinson had access to virtually every first edition as we do.

[lostinidlewonder]

He probably spent a lot of time in dark quiet libraries

[keyboardclass]

You still seem to miss Hinson's point.  He is not saying there's is a free-for-all on Chopin pedaling because the odd first edition has a discrepancy.  He is saying, as I have said, Do your research and come to an informed decision.  Your attitude is that of a pedant, I'm sorry to say.  

[gyzzzmo]

You still seem to miss Hinson's point.  He is not saying there's is a free-for-all on Chopin pedaling because the odd first edition has a discrepancy.  He is saying, as I have said, Do your research and come to an informed decision.  Your attitude is that of a pedant, I'm sorry to say.  

That might be great and simple sollution as a teacher of novice students.
But if somebody exceeded that novice stadium and has the ability to perform a (Chopin) piece any way he wants, the choice whether to use pedal should be based on his personal interpretation. Playing the piano isnt (/shouldnt be) mathmetics with research (unless maybe if you are a keyboardclass teacher).

There are also some other points to concider: If you are technical capable, you can play certain parts legato enough without having to use the pedal. Especially if parts are fast or very slow this gives much better effect when playing on a grand located in big rooms/halls. Playing the pedal  anyway because it happens to be a good idea 'according to research' and it is noted on your sheetmusic,  is rather silly.

People can quote 'experts' like Hinson, Banowetz (and whatever theyre all called) as much as they want, but claims of those theorists are rather useless unless you're completely absent of musicality, especially when playing Chopin.

[keyboardclass]

There are also some other points to concider: If you are technical capable, you can play certain parts legato enough without having to use the pedal.

And there you totally miss the point of Chopin's pedaling - it's more to do with colour and dynamics.  In Chopin's day most people still called it the loud pedal, and for good reason.

[prongated]

Personally I don't care which edition I read when it comes to pedaling or teaching it. Although I have to say the reputable modern editions are a lot more reliable and legible than older editions. I think we can pedal Chopin through bars on modern piano also if we have the feminine soft touch at the keyboard that the man himself was admired and also critiqued to have. Modern piano is just so loud.

No, no, and...somehow no. Do you have any idea about how a publisher today would come to a "reliable" edition of Chopin's works, and how publishers of Chopin's day would? And it's a nice theory you extrapolated there (ha!), but it won't work, will sound simply wishy-washy, and it will be absolutely unlike how the Pleyel sounded in Chopin's time. And yes, today's piano is louder than past instruments, but in Prok 2 concerto the orchestra still drowns out most pianist today But whatever...I'm happy to agree to disagree here

An interesting aside - the first edition of the Preludes agree with Hinson's manuscript.  Prelude XVI is especially interesting.

He does Chopin?? I can only see this "at the piano with chopin" stuff...but by God I thought we've had enough of his editions...

He is saying, as I have said, Do your research and come to an informed decision.

The other problem that hasn't been mentioned is, it's a bit more than just Chopin making slight alterations for the purpose of different publications - he himself seems to change his mind quite a bit. Notes in chords, bass notes, dynamics, articulation...which also brings us to Mikuli's editions, which had many added instructions based on what he claimed are what Chopin himself told/taught him. In a way, I consider Chopin's music as among the foremost in the art of music; there's a great deal of imagination, a great deal of creativity and possibilities, and a great deal of good taste. They can only benefit so much from academic research - by far the most part comes through good musical education, lots of listening to a wide range of music, lots of experimenting, and lots of dedication to the music.

That might be great and simple sollution as a teacher of novice students.
But if somebody exceeded that novice stadium and has the ability to perform a (Chopin) piece any way he wants, the choice whether to use pedal should be based on his personal interpretation. Playing the piano isnt (/shouldnt be) mathmetics with research (unless maybe if you are a keyboardclass teacher).

Granted I hate all these musicology mineworks, but on the other hand, to play the piano purely according to what sounds nice is a very amateurish enterprise and attitude. Which if you are, is no problem I suppose.

There are also some other points to concider: If you are technical capable, you can play certain parts legato enough without having to use the pedal. Especially if parts are fast or very slow this gives much better effect when playing on a grand located in big rooms/halls. Playing the pedal  anyway because it happens to be a good idea 'according to research' and it is noted on your sheetmusic,  is rather silly.

...roflmao! Pedalling according to acoustics has mostly to do with how dry/wet the hall is! In fact it's only in wet halls (usually smaller room, and many concert halls in Europe - I find many halls in the States to be very dry acoustically) that I would consider pedalling less.

Not to mention that playing without pedal just to demonstrate your technical capability is simply silly. A few years ago I went to a Schubert and Liszt recital by Emanuel Ax. First Schubert f minor Imromptu was very beautiful, but then somehow he went on this tangent of showing off the many different tone colours he's able to produce on the piano with the rest of the Schubert. Great start to the program, but then I was extremely unimpressed afterwards - just a tehnique exhibition, with nothing further said about the music.

People can quote 'experts' like Hinson, Banowetz (and whatever theyre all called)...

Joseph Banowetz is an "expert/theorist" just because he wrote books about music?! 'nuff said

[keyboardclass]

And here is another Hinson quote:

Mme Streicher stated that Chopin was veru strict about the use of the pedal, and he told her, “The correct employment of it remains a study for life.”  Chopin’s generous use of pedal indications show his great concern for it.  He indicated more pedal markings than most of the other romantic composers.  He advised that the pedal be used with care, “for it is a sensitive and awfully noisy rascal.”  It should be treated politely and delicately for “as a friend it is most helpful, but its friendship and love are not easily won.”

[stevebob]

Joseph Banowetz is an "expert/theorist" just because he wrote books about music?! 'nuff said

No, you have the causal relationship reversed:  he wrote books about music because he is an expert.

[keyboardclass]

Hey Steve, I think I spot a bit of irony in them there rolling eyeballs.

[stevebob]

Oops, my bad.  I've been so transfixed by some of what I've read here that I got confused and missed that.

[keyboardclass]

To be honest, considering the caliber of posters in this thread it's good that got clarified.

[gyzzzmo]

Granted I hate all these musicology mineworks, but on the other hand, to play the piano purely according to what sounds nice is a very amateurish enterprise and attitude. Which if you are, is no problem I suppose.

I wrote many times that this is the case for Chopin's work. Most other composers do indeed require some extra attention than acting purely on the sound.

...roflmao! Pedalling according to acoustics has mostly to do with how dry/wet the hall is! In fact it's only in wet halls (usually smaller room, and many concert halls in Europe - I find many halls in the States to be very dry acoustically) that I would consider pedalling less.

The acoustics of a hall does indeed depend on more than size and your 'roflmao proudly presented moister'. For example the audience and form of the hall (etcetera), i just didnt expect that somebody found it That important to make a fuss about one other point affecting accoustics.

[cmg]

Phew!  It's precisely because of this kind of tedious nitpicking that I transcribed the Opus 10 Etudes for castanets.  Pedal them any damn way you like!

[gyzzzmo]

Phew!  It's precisely because of this kind of tedious nitpicking that I transcribed the Opus 10 Etudes for castanets.  Pedal them any damn way you like!

I can only second this.

All those silly and childish comments have been a reason of many of us to just stop replying anything serious on pianostreet. Maybe i should follow Thal's example for a while and wait for an era with fewer 'roflmao'-kids.

[stevebob]

I’ve observed a direct correlation between the pomposity, pretense and condescension of some posts and the incidence of misspellings and grammatical errors in them.

A better explanation for the dwindling traffic at this site might be the unhelpful, unwelcoming and frankly hostile posting environment created by some of the core surviving regulars toward newcomers.

[cmg]

I’ve observed a direct correlation between the pomposity, pretense and condescension of some posts and the incidence of misspellings and grammatical errors in them.

A better explanation for the dwindling traffic at this site might be the unhelpful, unwelcoming and frankly hostile posting environment created by some of the core surviving regulars toward newcomers.

Stevebob, actually, I agree with you.  I think you were unfairly attacked here.  You simply asked a direct question that the questioner refused to answer directly.  Instead, he obscured the issue with sophistry.  I posted to defuse the issue.  None of this silly, effete debate about authentic and aesthetic pedalling of Chopin's music matters.  The music matters, the instrument it is played upon matters, the hall in which the piano is played matters, the pianist's sensibilities matter.  The rest, is, well, noise.

[lostinidlewonder]

Threads diverge because people attack other peoples ideas, state what they think about it and leave it like that. When I initially post in a thread I am always interested in providing information that might not have been addressed or echoing good advice from other members. However some people (stevebob especially) tend to think that because what I say might not run in line with their musical ideologies that I am doing something sinister. It is an inferiority complex of personalities here that cause threads to diverge away from what is constructive. Just because people are different from yourself does not mean that they are being insulting or trying to pull you down.

[stevebob]

Threads diverge because people attack other peoples ideas, state what they think about it and leave it like that. When I initially post in a thread I am always interested in providing information that might not have been addressed or echoing good advice from other members. However some people (stevebob especially) tend to think that because what I say might not run in line with their musical ideologies that I am doing something sinister. It is an inferiority complex of personalities here that cause threads to diverge away from what is constructive. Just because people are different from yourself does not mean that they are being insulting or trying to pull you down.

I don't have a "musical ideology"—that's more predictable pot-kettle-black obfuscation from you—and someone who exhibits pathological behavior should be circumspect about diagnosing a neurosis like "inferiority complex" in others.  Your smug, rude and haughty attitude toward posters who challenge or disagree with you is sinister, in my opinion.

[lostinidlewonder]

And you are very welcome to your opinion . Whether I am smug, rude and haughty is also your opinion. If you have no musical ideology then that is strange in my opinion.

[prongated]

No, you have the causal relationship reversed:  he wrote books about music because he is an expert.

Yes, that's exactly my point
[Obviously Banowetz is a musician I respect very much]

I wrote many times that this is the case for Chopin's work. Most other composers do indeed require some extra attention than acting purely on the sound.

Right. From reading your post I understood different. But OK ^^

The acoustics of a hall does indeed depend on more than size and your 'roflmao proudly presented moister'. For example the audience and form of the hall (etcetera), i just didnt expect that somebody found it That important to make a fuss about one other point affecting accoustics.

Well let me make it clear that it is not my intention to belittle somebody ad hominem, so if that's how it comes across, my apologies! At the same time, I stand by what I said - it's the acoustics, and not the size of the hall, that should determine how you pedal. Call me a pedant, and I call you sloppy now let's go get some beer

I can only second this.

All those silly and childish comments have been a reason of many of us to just stop replying anything serious on pianostreet. Maybe i should follow Thal's example for a while and wait for an era with fewer 'roflmao'-kids.

...honestly, I why do I even bother coming back here...

...let me get this straight; you are an amateur, wanting to do whatever you think serves the music right, and there you are implying that someone/people who, in attempting to do (or doing) music professionaly, nitpick the slightest things are "roflmao"-kids who spam the board just for laughs, with nothing to offer to a "serious discussion"...?

Do you have any idea what it means to pursue music professionally? Do you have any idea how much these people sacrifice in order to know 0.00001% more about music? More specifically, do you think I spent hours formulating my responses in this thread alone just to show how supremely knowledgeable I am in music - or worse, to poke fun at people like you?

I've had it. I'VE HAD IT! Why is it that so many rebuttal on this forum has to be taken personally? Instead of considering the points that were said, people jump on the defensive and protract the main topic with so many asides and God-knows-what. Yes, some people here know more (sometimes a lot more) than others on differing topics in music. And no, there is no pomposity in knowing more. No, there is no shame in being told you're wrong (I've been in that position many times in the past, and I expect to be in that position in the future too). Is it just too damned hard to accept??

Seriously! Say "I don't care" or "I'm not interested" and that can be that. Offer your opinion, and I offer mine, and we can learn from each other - or one can learn from another. However, if people here consider me a "roflmao"-kid who spam boards for fun and poke supremacy, then why should I even bother?!

[stevebob]

And you are very welcome to your opinion . Whether I am smug, rude and haughty is also your opinion. If you have no musical ideology then that is strange in my opinion.

Thanks for letting me know I'm welcome to my opinion!  Even if judgments about behavior and ethics are subjective, I think it's an informed opinion based on evidence.  There are abundant examples of you attempting to belittle, demean or discredit others in this very thread.  You might maintain that’s not your intention, but you can’t claim you haven’t been made aware of it.

Perhaps “musical ideology” is a term of art that’s beyond my ken, but I don’t know how it could possibly be beneficial to me.  I don’t think that rigid adherence to dogma or doctrinaire attitudes is in my interest.  It’s obvious you feel differently, as from our exchange after you wrote, “I teach my students to ignore the pedal markings unless they need it (like the fingering suggestions included in some scores).”  Recall that my comment and your riposte were as follows:

I wonder how precocious or advanced a student would be that his or her judgment regarding pedaling and fingering can effectively substitute for the suggestions of composers and editors for treating those elements.  I find it enormously beneficial to examine multiple editions of a composition I'm studying to compare the various ideas of experts in such matters.

The more you are reading fingerings in the score the more you do not understand the procedure that is asked from you. This is not to say it is wrong to read fingerings (even though many lesser music editions must have had a drunk writing the fingerings), but it highlights that you are playing something that you have little experience with. The same applies for pedaling but with a even more serious intensity, if you rely on reading pedaling directions from a page then you are missing the overall picture of what your phrases should sound like. It might be ok to read the pedal markings in the sheet music but it is unnecessary more often than not for those who actually know what the piece they should be playing sounds like in their minds eye.

I wonder to whom you were addressing these inflexible assertions.  Even if “you” wasn’t directed at me individually and was a substitute for the impersonal “one,” the unmistakable implication is that anyone who does the things I just said that I do is unskilled, ignorant, inexperienced and clueless.  If you insist there’s nothing insulting there, it’s really the proverbial tip of an iceberg here that included:

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz wake me up when something intelligent is said.

and

We do not need to produce sources for anything you do not understand because it merely highlights your lack of understanding and we are not here to educate you, we will highlight a point and its up to you to go look it up if you are interested. That we do not write a novel to explain things to you does not one bit highlight our lack of knowledge, but rather, our lack of wanting to spoonfeed information to people who we do not even know (or care about essentially).

and

I can do whatever I like it's a free world.

It’s hard for me to understand the entitlement, empowerment and/or lack of self-awareness that impel such a perspective and communication style.  If it’s all a manifestation of “musical ideology,” I definitely don’t want any of that.

[pianowolfi]

When I first tried to play Chopin I encountered the same problem as the initial poster.
To me it was really hard to figure out, back then. I understand completely that you can get in a conflict with your musical conscience because of this question.

Of course you need to learn syncopated pedal and all other pedalling techniques first, otherwise there's no way at all. Either your teacher will help you or you will figure it out by doing some research online or in books. Or watch and listen to experienced pianists.

Then you might want to study Mozart and Beethoven.
Mozart of course used the "pedal" (it was a knee lever in his times and not a pedal) but never wrote any indication or marks. Of course that does *not* mean you don't have to use it in Mozart! He used it on a regular basis, it was just so self-explanatory that he didn't find it necessary to put special marks for it.
Beethoven only writes Pedal marks when he's asking for special effects. Like in the Waldstein Sonata or the "Tempest". That does of course not mean you need to avoid the pedal everywhere else in his works!

Chopin wrote some "special effect" Pedal marks and additionally other ones!

That means you have to make a decision. You need to decide which pedal mark relates to a "special effect" and which one is only a "normal" pedal mark.

For the "normal" ones applies: play with your ear. In most cases it will be "legato" or "syncopated" pedal. That means don't change the pedal at the asterix but at the harmony change afterwards. And do this very precisely!
For the "special effect" marks you need to play with your ear *and* according to the respective situation, room, acoustics, type of piano, wet or dry hall etc. Like in Beethoven. Means you need to capture the essence of the respective pedal mark. What is the sense of it, what could Chopin have had in mind with it and such.

[keyboardclass]

For the "normal" ones applies: play with your ear. In most cases it will be "legato" or "syncopated" pedal. That means don't change the pedal at the asterix but at the harmony change afterwards. And do this very precisely!

I don't get why the asterix would be anywhere but where it's meant to be.  Are there publishers that randomly place them?

[pianowolfi]

I don't get why the asterix would be anywhere but where it's meant to be.  Are there publishers that randomly place them?

I guess it was technically not possible to place it where it should be. And it's still like that. If you use notation programs you will know that you can't notate precise pedalling with Ped. and * But you won't find any other kind of pedal marks from that time. The other (more precise) pedal marks were invented much later.