Chopin's pedal marks

[lostinidlewonder]

Not really, you are merely quoting him trying to debunk gyzzmo but it had nothing to do with what gyz was talking about. I was merely curious to test your conjecture.

If there was no repetition in this website, everyone would have left by  now.

[keyboardclass]

So, gyzzmo's: 'the usage of pedal is pretty straight forward; focus on purity of the melody and don't blur different chords together.'  has nothing to do with Banowetz's: 'Most textbooks relate a change of pedal to a change of harmony. Chopin's pedaling is frequently independent of the
harmony, as when harmonies are deliberately blurred together.'

[lostinidlewonder]

Because Bannowetz is talking about a specific situation, not in general. You need to read in context.

[gyzzzmo]

So, gyzzmo's: 'the usage of pedal is pretty straight forward; focus on purity of the melody and don't blur different chords together.'  has nothing to do with Banowetz's: 'Most textbooks relate a change of pedal to a change of harmony. Chopin's pedaling is frequently independent of the
harmony, as when harmonies are deliberately blurred together.'

I have indeed nothing to do with mr Banowetz. I play piano and pedal the way i think it sounds right and just gave a main indication what is involved: avoiding blurry chords (blurry harmonies if you like) and purity in melody. And this is about Chopin's music, just so you wont get confused.
In your eyes that statement might indeed be 'quite wrong', but as long as plenty of people are still willing to pay for my music, i'm just fine with your disaproval

Gyzzzmo

[keyboardclass]

Because Bannowetz is talking about a specific situation, not in general. You need to read in context.

This is Banowetz totally talking in general about Chopin's entire oeuvre!

Chopin's original pedal indications create more blurring on modern pianos than they would have on his instrument, and
that must be taken into account by today's performer. But this fact alone does not justify ignoring his directions. The pianist who evens out Chopin's pedal indications may be missing an important element of the compositional intent.

[keyboardclass]

I have indeed nothing to do with mr Banowetz. I play piano and pedal the way i think it sounds right and just gave a main indication what is involved: avoiding blurry chords (blurry harmonies if you like) and purity in melody. And this is about Chopin's music, just so you wont get confused.
In your eyes that statement might indeed be 'quite wrong', but as long as plenty of people are still willing to pay for my music, i'm just fine with your disaproval

Gyzzzmo

Sorry gyzzmo, that doesn't even deign a reply.

[lostinidlewonder]

This is Banowetz totally talking in general about Chopin's entire oeuvre!

I doubt it severely. If anyone tells me Chopin harmonies should generally be blurred like impressionistic music I will spit in their face Are you talking about horowitz one millionth of a second argument?

[keyboardclass]

Who's saying you blur all Chopin harmonies?  Where did that come from?  If they are marked to blur then blur!  Jeez.

[gyzzzmo]

Sorry gyzzmo, that doesn't even deign a reply.

Does that mean you agree?

[lostinidlewonder]

Who's saying you blur all Chopin harmonies?  Where did that come from?  If they are marked to blur then blur!  Jeez.

So now you finally realize he is talking about specific situations where we where talking about his music in general and why your initial statement that gyzzmo was mistaken is not valid.

[keyboardclass]

So now you finally realize he is talking about specific situations where we where talking about his music in general and why your initial statement that gyzzmo was mistaken is not valid.

This thread is about Chopin's Pedal Marks.  Not what should be done when there are none.

[gyzzzmo]

This thread is about Chopin's Pedal Marks.  Not what should be done when there are none.

Specificly about Chopin's Pedal Marks:
Ignore them.

Students should listen to their teacher how to use the pedal, and advanced pianists should use pedalling as their experience and personal style tells them where and how to use it.

But feel free to feel 'quite wrong' about this. Your excellent keyboardclass teacher (or are you a keyboard class teacher yourself?) has that job for an obvious reason 

Gyzzzmo

[keyboardclass]

or are you a keyboard class teacher yourself?

No, I'm an excellent keyboard class teacher!

[stevebob]

Specificly about Chopin's Pedal Marks:
Ignore them.

One would have to go the source even to know what Chopin's pedal marks are.  Otherwise one is possibly (or probably) seeing the editor's pedal marks instead, which might or might not hew to Chopin's intentions.

I'd be inclined to favor what Banowetz suggests—or even the directions of those allegedly drunk editors of the still-unspecified "many lesser" editions—over the advice of self-styled experts on an internet forum.

[ronde_des_sylphes]

Two important things to consider:

1.

Chopin's piano at the time is one that has even less resonance than the one we have, and thus holding down the pedal for entire bar's length is not a problem for Chopin - in fact it creates a nice coloristic effect! Today, it will simply blur everything in the bar.

2. One of the reasons there are so many editions of Chopin with often contrary indications (pedal, fingering, whatever) is that not only have so many editors over the years produced their own take on Chopin's original - but that (just to add to the confusion) there can often be more than one "original Chopin" ms. Chopin is known to have, on occasion, sold one ms to publisher x, then needed some more money, made minor editorial changes and sold the next ms to publisher y, and so on.

[keyboardclass]

You'll need to produce your sources for that.  Chopin sold his works to mostly either Wessel in London, Schlesinger in Paris and Breitkopf & Härtel in Leipzig.  These were his principal markets.  Each publisher had copyright for that country.  He would have been taken to court had he tried what you suggested. 

[lostinidlewonder]

This thread is about Chopin's Pedal Marks.  Not what should be done when there are none.

Then you should not have piped up and attempted to refute gyz. Just highlighting how you where wrong and how you tried to quote your favorite book but it had no relevance to what gyz was talking about. You might think that because that small instance in gyz reply mentioned not what Chopin wrote that it is irrelevant, it is not however, since Chopin purposefully missed out marking pedals in many of his pieces where the pedaling should be logical and obvious.

You will be hard pressed to find any edition in existence that highlights Chopins exact pedal markings, as has been pointed out already editors have put in a lot in this area. We do not need to produce sources for anything you do not understand because it merely highlights your lack of understanding and we are not here to educate you, we will highlight a point and its up to you to go look it up if you are interested. That we do not write a novel to explain things to you does not one bit highlight our lack of knowledge, but rather, our lack of wanting to spoonfeed information to people who we do not even know (or care about essentially).

[keyboardclass]

You will be hard pressed to find any edition in existence that highlights Chopins exact pedal markings,

https://chopin.lib.uchicago.edu/

[lostinidlewonder]

This does not highlight Chopins exact pedal markings as any edition that is not his autograph edition would have been edited.

[keyboardclass]

These are Chopin's.  He would have proofread each one and approved before any printing took place.  There is no editor - that's what a first edition is!

[lostinidlewonder]

spam

[prongated]

spam

[keyboardclass]

And you notice on the second paragraph they mention how the editors where very careless in preserving Chopin's original pedaling marks.

Please don't paraphrase Mr Hinson.  He said many publishers.  Also, he's writing before Chicago put practically every first edition on line.  You need to look through at least three first's of any composition (I find Breitkopf & Härtel to be most accurate in their pedal marks) and use you knowledge of Chopin's style (taken from manuscripts) to make informed decisions.