Pitch Raising

[keys60]

I'm glad Hoff posted about the piano that was appx. a 1/2 step low on the "inherited piano" thread.
Yesterday, I tuned a Wurlitzer that was about 40 years old. I'm a tuner/novice tech. as a sidejob.

I'm pretty fortunate to tune pianos that are at least being used and getting clients from my daughters teacher and a few local schools and college.

But yesterdays Wurlitzer was a challenge. This piano was moved into the home about 4 years ago and never tuned afterward. She dropped almost a whole step in pitch. The tuning pins felt to have at least 70lbs. of torque on them. (didn't have a torque wrench with me)
No rust on the pins or pressure bar or strings.

Ok. I felt safe bringing her up to 440. I did. No strings snapped.
Within the hour, the pitch dropped. Knowing the customer as a coworker/all around good guy, I decided I'll donate some time for the cause. I retuned......twice.

After 3 hours, I had enough. The upper registers just kept dropping a 1/2 step form there and of course I had to leave this piano sounding pretty awful.
Fortunately, all around good guy understood his responsibility in all this.

We rescheduled another tuning in a month from now. I can't tap his wallet that hard.

To you more experienced tuners out there. Anyone like to venture a guess as to where this piano might begin to stabilize? The piano seems to be in pretty good shape. The action doesn't stick, the keys are level, the pinblock still provides decent tension, rust free, nice cabinet although that doesnt matter much.
Should I try stretching a bit above 440? Should I tap the pins in a bit to maybe 90-100 lbs. of torque?
I'll give him another rough and a fine tune on the next visit at no extra cost. I'm really hoping we can get a little stability out of the beast.

This is my first serious pitch raise, so you input will be appreciated. Thanks.

Curtis

[Bob]

I'm not a tuner or tech at all, but I've wondered if it must weaken, change the tone, or do something negative if the strings get stretched beyond where they're supposed to end up.  I know they're supposed to be turned a little high and allowed to settle back down to where the pitch is supposed to be, so the pin is left being "used" to moving in the opposite direction than it will naturally want to slide in.  But I'm thinking you mean more raising of the pitch than that small amount.  Is it true that that would be negative?

I would leave it at 440 all the time.  Isn't there a risk that the strings will more likely snap if you go higher?  The higher you go and more likely when you go over 440, assuming the strings are designed to be at 440?  If you do tune it over 440, then you know for sure you have to come back to redo it again after that.

[keys60]

Bob. Thanks for the reply. Strings do have a tolerance to over 440. Sure, one can reach that tolerance and they will snap, but I'm only talking about a few cents over. Believe or not, wire stretches. Strings mostly snap when tuning because of the condition of the string and rusty contact points where it might stick, not due to excess force, OR the tuner forgets what note he's tuning and is wrenching up the wrong pin.    
 I tune my pianos quite often, appx. once per month. Many times I actually have to lower the pitch because of humidity. Mostly, a piano will drop in pitch with time and pressure, but a newly tuned piano during a humid time of year can actually raise.
The piano I raised yesterday fell back about 50% of what I raised it to be....440, from where I started from. Raised it again and it fell about 50% of that. I'm just hoping by the 4th or 5th time, we'll be close.
I've used specifically designed torque wrenches on tuning pins before and these pins felt (believe me, the shoulder can tell) felt to be in the 70 lb. range. That's sufficient torque to hold the average tuning if done regularly, but in the 90's would probably be better.
 i'm wondering if any of you old pros out there would recommend tapping them in a bit and try tuning a few cents over.
 I'd ask the certified RPT that I had my apprenticeship with, but we had a little falling out and my pride and ego is standing in my way.

Thanks.

Curtis

[silverwoodpianos]

A long one for you...........

With an instrument that is more than 35 years old and a full tone flat this is the safest procedure:

Tune Middle C with fork. Then tune all the C’s on the piano. Then tune your next key of whatever temperament sequence you use regularly...let us state that it is the F below middle C.
Tune the F and middle C as a fifth; then tune all the F’s. Then tune the next key of your temperament sequence working your way around the whole temperament until you end up at middle C once again.

By doing the pitch raise this way you are putting equal pressure on the entire scale inside the instrument; the bridges and sounding board and frame are all receiving an equal or almost equal force on the increase; kind of like doing up a car tire.....

Do not fixate on making sure the wire you tune is in correct tune. Just get them close enough because the scale will wander as you have found. Get them close and that is good enough for the moment..... This is called chip tuning. Bring all the treble wire and bass strings up this way.

There are several things happening while you do this, the most important thing to be mindful of is that it is not just the wire that is stretching. When the pitch is lost on a piano (or guitar or violin for that matter) the sounding board in a piano comes forward in an upright or up in a grand. This is because the sounding board is 1/13th of a 60 ft. circle...this is how they are shaped previous to being installed into the framework. You might have heard the term sound board crown..... The sound board has a belly so to speak.....

When the instrument is tuned  to pitch this puts tremendous pressure on the sounding board forcing it down(grand piano) under pressure  causing it to vibrate up to 20,000 times per second and this is what creates tone... the more vibrations the better the tone......

So what happens? When the sounding board begins to move down theoretically the strings get longer because the distance travelled over the bridges get shorter right? At the same time the wire is stretching back to its normal length.........

Now because you are a full tone flat this will require that you do one chip tuning and wait an hour or so. Then another chip tunings and wait 7 days.

Why do I state this?

Because you are dealing with an older instrument that has had tremendous pressure applied for its whole life and then neglected, so everything settles out.

Theoretically speaking then if the sounding board is in the wrong position an argument can be made that the strings are too small to fit with the sounding board in this position. We have this confirmed because when the sounding board moves back the instrument goes out of tune again.

If you tune an older instrument like this all the way up or over pull as suggested you run the risk of crushing the floating bass bridge against the sounding board rendering the instrument irreparable or perhaps crushing the crown in the sounding board cracking it across the middle.

For something a full tone flat you are adding more than 5-7 tons of weight to the frame. How is this frame going to tolerate this added weight? No-one can tell you so best to apply it slowly and consistently over a period of time, allowing the wire to stretch back to its original length.

Typically you will have to do 2 chip tunings; then one pitch raise, and a fine tuning. The two chips can be done in the same day. Then pitch raise 7 days later. The fine tuning in 14-21 days after that..This allows the wire to stretch and wooden structure to return to their respective positions......

This sets the instrument up for another tuning in 90 days. The after that you are on a regular schedule for maintenance/ tuning.

One more thing. It is impossible to tell accurately what torque reading you have without using a proper inch pound torque wrench. Because the tuning hammer will be in a different position and length at any given time it would be impossible to accurately measure the friction resistance without first be aware of the length of the lever you hold minus the leverage times the resistance .Whatever that mathematical calculation would be who cares.... get the wrench...no guesswork required.....

 Inch pound wrenches are available from the supply houses.

Make any sense? Best of luck.....

After your 3 hour stint I am glad to read that you stopped. By continuing you might have run into problems for yourself there......the instrument has to be allowed to react to the changes made. This is not instantaneous like a guitar or violin. Pianos have 256 strings and they are pulled to a tensile rating of 180 lbs for the most part. In a guitar or violin the wire is pulled to about 6 lbs and they only have 4 or 6 strings.

[keys60]

THAT'S the answer I was looking for. Thanks Mr. Silverwood. Even distribution of pressure. I get it.
I have a torque wrench from the big place beginning with an S. Just didn't have it with me. I haven't chip tuned since my teach and I restrung my Baldwin Acrosonic. I've rough tuned but forgot about going up the scale in octaves. I did  the popular A4, A3, F3, F4, etc. temperment and having to sing thirds, fourths and fifths just to get close. By the time I was going back downtown on the unisons, the higher registers dropped a 1/2 tone by the time I was at the bass strings.

 My customer would like to wait a month. Will that be ok? or do you think its really going to go that far south again. Either way, I'll let him know what the deal is. Wish i could have explained in further detail what was about to take place, but he did get it that this will be a few visits. I'll donate a little more time for free over the regular fee just because I feel sorry for a customer who obviously doesn't want to put so much into a less than instrument.

Thank you so much for your reply. It was most helpful.

[silverwoodpianos]

Yes when pitch raising any instrument over 35 years of age this is the procedure I use.  Doing the pitch raise in octaves is the best and safest way to add weight to a piano. Takes longer, but this is not a race.....

Yes now wait a month; have the client play the instrument as much as possible if they can stand it...even if they just pound (not too hard) on the keys at random up and down the scale.
The more the wire is moved back and forth by being excited by the hammer the better the next tuning will be..... This settles the wire out around all the pins in the plate and bridge.
Do you have a small center punch and tack hammer? Before you tune this instrument again it would be a good idea to tap the bridge pins in slightly.

Take a center punch with a flat end and small jewellers hammer and tap on each bridge pin. Watching closely as you tap one of the bridge pins, you will see the angle of the pin causes a lot of friction of the wire against it. When you tap you will see the wire being dragged down onto the bridge cap.

Not too much of a tap; just a love tap right? Do not watch the top of the punch as you strike it; your sightline will see the top without looking directly at it. Watch the bridge pin you are on........enough of a tap to see it move slightly............

Try one or two and if you do not feel confident enough then stop. Start in the high treble and work down......

Do NOT tap the wire down onto the cap. This will indent the cap. Let the friction drag the wire down.....

Then tune again.  A lot of the false beating in the treble wire will have disappeared.....

[keys60]

Mr. Siverwood.

 Thanks for the further advice. One more question on that if you don't mind.
Should I tune the the octaves with unisons all at once or one string at a time and go back to the unisons later like a conventional tuning?

Curtis

[silverwoodpianos]

Good question. As you tune in octaves while chip tuning it is always best to do each string of the unison.

Doing one string of each key will not force the bridge back in that area which is the result you are looking for; to get that bridge and sounding board moving in the correct direction. By tuning all 3 strings of the unison this will put the correct pressure on the bridge in that area.
By following a temperament sequence like 4ths and 5ths for example each time you are cutting the distance between the sudden pressure  in half...

Example: if you tune CC as an octave and then tune the F you are adding pressure to the bridge halfway between the C’s....make sense?....... then D above mid C, then G below mid C and on and on.....around the temperament you go......you can make the 4ths and 5ths beat less if you like; the whole object of this process is not to have the instrument in tune but to add pressure quickly to the instrument.

Sometimes I put the strip in and do octaves that way removing the strip at the end and doing the center left/right. Other times I just use mutes and do the same thing.

[keys60]

Thanks again, Silverwood.. I always strip mute the whole mid section and use the wedge mutes for the treble simply because I don't like trying to get the strip mute behind the dampers. I find it awkward and sometimes the dampers just push the strip mute onto the middle string. Occasionally I'll strip mute the bass strings, alternating upper and lower, but usually just use a wedge for those too.

I'm really looking forward to getting back to work on that Wurlitzer. Maybe I'm too much of a softy, but it breaks my heart taking someones hard earned, them expecting their little piano to sound like an O, but unplayable when I left and the customer having to cough up more dough later on.
I sure hope this little baby holds a tune eventually.
Since this is a learning experience for me too, I'll give the guy a break.

I really appreciate your help.

[silverwoodpianos]

No problem on the assistance. I know what you mean when you leave the instrument almost un-playable; but you have to be mindful of the fact that this is a process that must be gone through and some of the process is rather ugly at times..... ....
 
Also remember that it is not your responsibility that the instrument is low pitch; one must not reward people for their negligence....remember that the owner failed to keep a regular maintenance schedule for more than 4 years......Your responsibility once you accept the task is to bring the instrument back out of the musical ditch and get the thing back on the musical roadway so to speak...........and to do that without damage to its structure......

Here have a look at this piano. I was just asked to bring this one up to pitch after not being tuned for 20 years or so....

Now if this instrument was not pitched in the way I have described above here, the technician would have been in real trouble....I took these photos after the first pitch raise.....look at how the floating bass bridge is beginning to separate at the apron attached to the sounding board....

Boy you bring this one up too fast and that bridge separates from the sounding board ripping a big hole on the board and the instrument would be useless.....

This one has sentimental value and the owner was informed that any tuning was at their risk......got the instrument to A440 but for how long??  That is anyone’s guess....have a look.......

Picasa web album. Please left click once on this link and that takes you to the photo set. Then left click on the first photo top left and this will enlarge the photos, then go forward using the arrows.....

https://picasaweb.google.ca/silverwoodpianos/Moutrie?authkey=Gv1sRgCJSir6r4nJ234wE#

Cheers Curtis,

Good luck with the rest of the job. It will take a while for this one to stabilize; after your next tuning maybe one in 4 months or so depending upon how much change is noted....

[keys60]

Dan.

You're right about the "business sense" you've mentioned. Shouldn't be my problem financially if the customer doesn't take care of the piano.

I did the chip tuning yesterday that you had advised. The piano sounded pretty bad of course when I tested it prior to round 2, however, it didn't drop as much as I thought it would. The last octave and a half was pretty far down still.

The raising came out quite well. It did start detuning a bit before I had left the house but still sounded playable. I tuned it finer than I should have, going pretty near beatless on the unisons and the octaves. That's just a fault of mine. Just couldn't help myself.Overall, it took about an hour and twenty minutes. I didn't charge the customer this time, but he did agree and will pay the full fee when I return in 2-3 weeks.
He's a coworker at my other job so I didn't mind a little charity. We're going to do another 3 tunings within the next 3 months. Nothing wrong with leaving him with a good feeling. He won't mind recommending me to other folks at work and his church in the future. I work with thousands of people, many of whom own pianos.

Tuning to 5ths and a few 4ths of the previous string was a great method and I'll use it again I'm sure. It wasn't as difficult as I had anticipated. I just jotted down on a pad which notes I finished one at a time till there were none left. I really appreciate the lesson.

Thanks again. A lot!

Curtis

[keys60]

After a 3 week break, I went back to fine tune. The piano finally seemed fairly stable. After the fine tune, it sounded quite nice and the customer very pleased.
Thanks again Silverwood.
Next tunining in 60-90 days.

[silverwoodpianos]

Very good Curtis.

Time is the greatest healer after the many changes that come when a sudden increase in tension is applied to the strings. One has to be mindful of the fact that this is a wooden structure with steel wire over top; steel wire that is highly elastic; once this wire is pulled to proper scale it creates not only the tension for good tone but forces (somewhat) the curvature in the wooden structure itself.

 This can be accelerated by playing the instrument while the process is going on; sound vibrations are surprisingly strong. When a piano is tuned regularly over a period of years, the strings “settle” to a more stable position, resulting in the sounding board and bridges doing the same.

[keys60]

Bottom line....Happy customer/repeat calls/saved the little beast from total disrepair.
Never really saw a piano I hated.

[scottmcc]

I missed this thread the first time around, and just wanted to applaud the posters for a very high quality discussion above.  I definitely learned something about the mechanics of pianos, and I thank the posters for their thoughtful discussion.

[keys60]

Thank you Scott. Very nice comments. Being a comparatively new to the piano tech industry, I'll have a lot of questions to ask. There seems to be a few very generous advanced technicians willing to share so keep an eye out.

[silverwoodpianos]

There seems to be a few very generous advanced technicians willing to share so keep an eye out.

This is true; there don’t seem to be many of those around much anymore. If you come across one do let me know.

[keys60]

I hope to be one of those someday.
For now, I'll try to help with my limited advice without over stepping my boundaries and please......correct me if I'm wrong.