Netherlands woes

[ahinton]

Please take a look at
https://www.mco.nl/mco_page/actie_reacties,
sign the petition and add your comments; think not what your country can do for you but what you can try to help to do for the Netherlands. The prospect that such a proposal could be considered here (which fortunately it isn't, yet - at least not on such a scale) hardly bears thinking about.

Many thanks.

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

Cannot read the lingo.

What is it all about.

Thal

[gyzzzmo]

Its about a couple of major music institutions who wont get funded anymore by the government.

[birba]

So what's new in the world?  They're closing them here like they were going out of style.  It's the latest thing.

[thalbergmad]

Will eventually happen in jolly old England as we try to clear up the mess left by the Labour Party.

Fortunately our sensible new govenment are concentrating on cuts to funding for unemployed loafers and their baby factories and sponging immigrants.

Culture will eventually have to suffer as well.

Thal

[ahinton]

Vast apologies for this understandable language problem which wasn't a problem when I was first alerted to this situation, as the site concerned showed in a different format to the way in which it does now, with the issue outlined in both English and Dutch; in retrospect, I wish that I'd copied the English to file while it was there but, of course, I'd no idea that it would be removed. Anyway, what the Dutch government is now proposing is the axing of
Radio Filharmonisch Orkest
Radio Kamer Filharmonie
Groot Omroepkoor
Metropole Orkest
Muziekbibliotheek
MCO Educatie
in order to save costs and help to deal with the nation's debt - in other words, more or less equivalent (albeit on a scale that much larger because Britain is that much larger a country) to axing the BBC house orchestras and singers, Radio 3 and the Proms. Almost 17,500 people have now signed up to this.
 
I hope that it makes more sense now!

Best,

Alistair

[oxy60]

Yes, these are terrible cuts. Sadly, the Dutch social model has been unsustainable for a long time. And what is more incredible is they sort of sustained things by borrowing at 7-8% and collecting sales tax (BTV) at 20%.

I wonder if the Dutch would pay the real price for a ticket to see (I M H O) some of the best live performances in the world? The ticket price I paid for front row NDT was a joke. I never saw the main orchestra in Amsterdam because it was always sold out. Obviously the tickets were too cheap or they wouldn't offer enough performances.

[thalbergmad]

I don't think signing petitions is going to make any difference at all and I would have thought that a lot of people not interested in music would rather pay less taxes than have organisations like these supported from the public purse.

Thal

[gep]

Please take a look at
https://www.mco.nl/mco_page/actie_reacties,
sign the petition and add your comments; think not what your country can do for you but what you can try to help to do for the Netherlands. The prospect that such a proposal could be considered here (which fortunately it isn't, yet - at least not on such a scale) hardly bears thinking about.

Many thanks.

Best,

Alistair

Many thanks to Alistair for putting this up, I could kick myself for not thinking of it myself!

I wonder if the Dutch would pay the real price for a ticket to see (I M H O) some of the best live performances in the world? The ticket price I paid for front row NDT was a joke. I never saw the main orchestra in Amsterdam because it was always sold out. Obviously the tickets were too cheap or they wouldn't offer enough performances.

I think that this situation was one of the advantages of our system, making it accessible to those with not-so-fat wallets. But you have a point...


What they will actually get out of closing down what are several of the finest classical radio orchestras PLUS ditching the whole of the library and everything else is €250 million. To put that to scale, out national debt has increased by €100 million a day every day since the last government managed to collapse (again), which was in February. Do the math....
Need I say that our latest Minister of Finance, who gave 1,5 billion to Iceland, 5 billion more to Greece and well over 100 billion to the banks, none of which is expected ever to return to where it came from (ie tax payers) was Labour? Was, yes, just before the elections he "needed to spend more time with his family". Just after elections he accepted a job for €400,000 a year for a function that ask his to devise plans how companies might save money.

By all means do sign the petition, in The Hague all can read English, German etc,  although in all honesty I might say that their capacity to ignore messages in other languages is as great as ignoring messages in Dutch. Nevertheless, DO sign!

I take the liberty of putting on here (in English translation) of the message I put on on the MCO site (for what it's worth).
The idea that the upcoming cuts are to come partly out of the total destruction of a large part of the rich Dutch arts tradition, and of that mostly by the factual dismantling and carrying to the dump heap of the musical sector, is too preposterous for words! Classical music is in no way a leftist hobby, but rather there has been a gradual degradation of classical music by the left side by their order to “bring music to the people” (rather than let the people go to the music, something they are quite capable of themselves and actually do in rather great numbers!), making classical music “accessible for the masses”, in which those masses are not so much the average Netherlanders, but more the image of what politics feel they need to have. This nivellation to the greatest mean divider (or at least the image thereof) has resulted in a great watering down, coercion to more of the same “easy fodder”, for that is what the masses, at least according to the left sides, needs and wants. On the left, there has always been a string inclination to think they know what “the masses” want, feel and need, without ever seeing the need to actually check this with those masses.

Unfortunately, part of those masses have added considerably to this nivellation, because a growing part of the populace sadly demands “entertainment”; the results thereof is daily displayed, in ever decaying level, on whatever TV station you choose.

But in the arts themselves are things awry. Sadly, there are still artists who think  the government and society solely exist to provide them with a big bag of money, and then consider everything produced a high art with eternal value (of which said government and society are simply incapable of understanding anything). Also, the enforced pressure to be “original” has led and still leads to “art” that simply is bogus. Everything that is popular, or attracts large numbers of visitors, audiences or followers is suspect in these quarters, or not even real art at all. With that, part of the art world itself created a mechanism that looks creepily much like the Soviet adjective “Formalism”,  in what everything that does not adhere to the – by a self-appointed elitist authority established – regulation is damned. Happily, there are many artists who don’t let themselves be coerced into a corner, but are and remain true to themselves and manage to attract a (large) audience. Also institutions and groupings sometimes are of the conviction that they cannot or need not think of or work on generating income of their own.

In this, the director of De Verkadefabriek in Den Bosch has a point when he says: “de arts sector should not whine, but present argumentation” and: “What is striking is a recurring pattern; at one side we find the arts sector who squeeks and sighs and often has great trouble substantiating arguments for subsidising. At the other side the opponents, who like to simplify subsidising the arts to ‘toys for the elite’ or ‘the Rolling Stones don’t get support either’” (Source: Brabants Dagblad, 2-10-2010).

He certainly has a point. At one the side the government should treasure the value of the (performing) arts, but at the other side one might expect from the art sector itself that they provide arguments why they deserve that treasuring, appreciation and financial support. Institutions like the Radio Philharmonie, the Rijksmuseum and the Muziekcentrum van de Omroep should have no trouble doing so, based on their yearlong name and fame here and abroad. The Concertgebouw draws full halls, and has been pronounced the world’s best orchestra. The Radio Orchestra are among the best in the world. The Nederlands Muziekcentrum has a collection famed here and abroad. These are cultural treasures, just as much as Kinderdijk is one, and should be cherished.

But from the artists and institutions themselves may expected to deploy initiatives to draw audiences (without the inclination to counterproductively “adjust the arts downward” to a assumed greatest mean divider) and funds (without selling their soul for it). There are several examples of institutions that manage to create a serious, varied and high quality offering, and with that attract a growing audience and, with all that, present themselves as valuable asset. That kind of initiative could, no should, be stimulated and rewarded by the government. Individuals and institutions who entrench themselves in their ivory towers to look down on the “mean populace” with disdain are, to me, less in need of support.
 
What can not and should not be the aim is some sort of financial measuring rod of the type “for Y Euros I get X grams of sausage, thus for Y Euros I get X minutes of orchestra”. The most important arts have to offer is precisely not material, but exceeds that greatly. Art offers an experience, a learning, an enrichment, an added value to the everyday life. The number of people visiting museums and stages clearly prove that there is a great desire for that in all layers of the population. The level of what many museums and stages have to offer to those large numbers neatly prove that “the masses” are perfectly capable of valuing “difficult” art, so that the damning “bringing art to the people” is totally unnecessary, yes even detrimental. Art is not some sort of manure or pesticide to be dispersed, to paraphrase the composer Sorabji at this point.

I really cannot imagine that the plans as seem to be presented will go through. To demolish world-famous ensembles and institutions because we need money is just the same as flattening the Palace at the Dam to build houses there. That cannot be, and that should not be! The great cultural treasures of The Netherlands need to be preserved. It should not be hard for the artistic institutions and artist to provide the evidence of their value. It should not be hard for those in power to see, hear and want to protect the value of our artistic possessions.

All best,
gep

[ahinton]

I don't think signing petitions is going to make any difference at all

Not of people don't sign, no - but then what would you suggest as the most effective alternative? There have so far beeen almost 17,500 contributors; that's equivalent to well over 1 in every thousand of the Netherlands population which, for a minority interest such as Western classical music, is not so small - and the numbers are increasing by the minute.

and I would have thought that a lot of people not interested in music would rather pay less taxes than have organisations like these supported from the public purse.

Perhaps so, but what gives you the idea that the money that the Netherlands government thinks that it might save by axing these organisations will mean that much less demanded by it of its taxpayers? Do you see and tax cuts coming our way in Britain as a consequence of all the cuts that the government here is proposing or about to propose?

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

Do you see and tax cuts coming our way in Britain as a consequence of all the cuts that the government here is proposing or about to propose?

No, i expect that money saved via cuts will go towards reducing the defecit which otherwise would have to be met from an increased tax burden.

Thal

[thalbergmad]

Not of people don't sign, no - but then what would you suggest as the most effective alternative? There have so far beeen almost 17,500 contributors; that's equivalent to well over 1 in every thousand of the Netherlands population which, for a minority interest such as Western classical music, is not so small - and the numbers are increasing by the minute.

There is no alternative. Government cuts are only influenced by public opinion in the run up to elections and then quickly forgotten again afterwards.

1 in every 1,000 is hardly a shattering endorsement. I wonder if everyone has only signed once.

Thal

[ahinton]

No, i expect that money saved via cuts will go towards reducing the defecit which otherwise would have to be met from an increased tax burden.

Your optimism must surely originate from Cloud Cuckoo Land! But if you are against state subsidy of the arts in general, might you advocate that the Netherlands (or any other financially beleaguered) government should consider cutting the lot? Do bear in mind that making swingeing cuts to anything will involve far less savings than might at first sigh appear; more unemployment menas greater benefit payments and less tax revenue. In this particuilar instance, the losses to the cultural reputation of the Netherlands will eventually outweigh any net savings and will themselves translate into further financial losses to the point that less people will come to that country and spend money and more people will leave that country to earn a living and pay taxes elsewhere.

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

There is no alternative. Government cuts are only influenced by public opinion in the run up to elections and then quickly forgotten again afterwards.

Government cuts in Britain are being formulated right now, in the aftermath of a general election; they are hardly being "forgotten afterwards" as you suggest. Remove that much of the Netherlands' cultural life and you won't be able easily to restore it if ever the country's economy improves. Have a look at some of gep's figures on that, too.

1 in every 1,000 is hardly a shattering endorsement. I wonder if everyone has only signed once.

For a minority interest like Western classical music it is just that - and it's increasing by the minute in any case.

Should we all take it that you're not about to sign this, then?

Best,

Alistair

[birba]

I wonder if the Netherlands offers tax cuts to donating private companies.  This is the main problem in Italy.  Unlike in the USA, there are NO tax benefits for contributions by private donors.

[thalbergmad]

Government cuts in Britain are being formulated right now, in the aftermath of a general election; they are hardly being "forgotten afterwards" as you suggest.

I said those influenced by public opinion.

[thalbergmad]

Should we all take it that you're not about to sign this, then?

No, i am not and i would not sign if it were over here either.

Thal

[ahinton]

I said those influenced by public opinion.

And what makes you right about that, then?

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

No, i am not and i would not sign if it were over here either.

Well, at least that makes your position clear. How sad. Most of us here thought that you supported music and its dissemination in various forms, not least public performance. Do please try to consider the inevitable knock-on effects of these absurd proposals if they ever become reality - effects upon the practice of music everywhere, a subject in which I'd thought you were very interested.

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

I am interested, but not selfish enough to try and ring fence my own interests from cuts.

Thal

[pianowolfi]

I am lost. I'd like to sign but I don't see where and what?
I am used to sign petitions let's say via facebook or on the street but here there is no form, only a sort of comment function...  

[ahinton]

I am interested, but not selfish enough to try and ring fence my own interests from cuts.

I have no idea what you mean by that. Selfishness doesn't come into it other than that everyone's individual aspirations are arguably selfish, whaever they may be; yours are what we know them to be and your very pursuit of them is selfish and a matter of your self-developed self-interest but, since this does you and others good rather than harm, that's fine, thanks.

Go sign! Express your solidarity not only with the musicians involved but with the Dutch and other people the quality of whose lives will be irretrievably reduced if this lunacy is permitted to go ahead.

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

I am lost. I'd like to sign but I don't see where and what?
I am used to sign petitions let's say via facebook or on the street but here there is no form, only a sort of comment function...  

All you have to do is visit and add your comment; your contribution will then register and your signature and comment will be added to the tally of petitioners. Simples!

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

Go sign! Express your solidarity not only with the musicians involved but with the Dutch and other people the quality of whose lives will be irretrievably reduced if this lunacy is permitted to go ahead.

I am sure a Dutch family struggling to pay their mortgages, loans, credit cards and other associated bills are not going to be devastated that their government want to save 260,000,000 Euros by scrapping a minority interest.

Not having a roof over your head or food to put on the table affects qualtiy of life, not having an orchestra pales into insignificance.

Thal

[thalbergmad]

yours are what we know them to be and your very pursuit of them is selfish

But i am not in receipt of Government funds to preserve concerto manuscripts by way of digitalisation.

Neither is the RAM, RCM, ULRLS, British Library, Bodlian, Cambridge University Library or any other in this Country. I pay so it can be done.

Thal

[gyzzzmo]

I am sure a Dutch family struggling to pay their mortgages, loans, credit cards and other associated bills are not going to be devastated that their government want to save 260,000,000 Euros by scrapping a minority interest.

Not having a roof over your head or food to put on the table affects qualtiy of life, not having an orchestra pales into insignificance.

Thal

This is true, but the problem is that the government gave no reason at all why these musical institutions stopped getting funded. Plus the fact that they are very good orchestra's and would cost alot more to get them back once the funding stops.
I think it is definitely a good idea to review once in a while where and how funds go in a country's cultural area. But if you decide to stop a funding, you have to explain why they chose those.

[ahinton]

I am sure a Dutch family struggling to pay their mortgages, loans, credit cards and other associated bills are not going to be devastated that their government want to save 260,000,000 Euros by scrapping a minority interest.

If, as gep has mentioned, the amount by which the Nertherlands deficit has been increasing of late is around that much every 2.5 days, might you not think that the Dutch family that you mention would be infinitely more aggrieved by that fact than by the saving that its government thinks that it might achieve by scrapping MCO, especially since the not inconsiderable knock-on effect of such an action would blow a large whole in any such anticipated savings?

Not having a roof over your head or food to put on the table affects qualtiy of life, not having an orchestra pales into insignificance.

OK, so not having orchestras doesn't affect the quality of life? If that were true, why would so many Dutch people attend their performances and listen to their broadcasts?

But let's think about the consequences of such an action for a moment - and let's be pragmatic about it. Why only MCO? Why not also the Concertgebouw, the opera, etc.? Or might these follow later? However far-reaching these cuts might be, what will the fallout from them include?

To begin with, a lot of people will be put out of work, so they will either have to leave the country to find work and pay taxes elsewhere or they'll have to join the ranks of Dutch unemployed, both of which will cost the government money, thereby increasing rather than decreasing its deficit. Secondly, what signals will this send to universities, conservatoires and schools in the Netherlands about music tuition? Pretty obviously negative ones. So what will be the point in continuing with any music education, state subsidised or otherwise, in that country when the end result of its pursuit will be emigration, higher unemployment or both? What message will it send to the Holland Festival, which tens of thousands of people from all over the world attend annually, thereby generative revenue in the Netherlands?

Let this kind of thing spread throughout Netherlands society and you risk letting the country end up as a Western classical music-free zone - in other words, the exact opposite of the reputation that it has now - and, if the government gets away with it, what kind of message might this send to other countries in Europe and elsewhere who are also in the throes of financial deficit? Do you really want - or might you not mind - the demise of the BBC orchestras and singers, the Proms, Radio 3, music festivals up and down the land, classical record retail outlets, etc.? - because Britain has a vastly larger deficit than the Netherlands has.

I suspect that it's not the subject itself but the fact of government subsidy of it that bothers you. I have never been one to advocate disproportionately high government subsidy of the pursuit, study and practice of Western classical music, but that's only because it needs subsidy from every legal source from which it can procure it - governmental, corporate and private  quite simply because it does not and cannot of itself make a direct profit, a fact which is plainly obvious when one recognises how small a proportion of required revenue can be generated by ticket sales even when events are sold out.

Lastly, what about these national financial deficits, then? They're certainly present and some are mighty - but were they caused by the continued pursuit of Western classical music? Was it those dastardly orchestral players who bled the country dry? Have the bankers and certain other financial services practitioners clean-handedly stood by and let these wretchedly irresponsible musicians bring about this economic mayhem? If your answer to any of that is in the affirmative, I suspect that the fruitfulness of any continued discussion will have ceased then and there.

Best,

Alistair

[gep]

I am sure a Dutch family struggling to pay their mortgages, loans, credit cards and other associated bills are not going to be devastated that their government want to save 260,000,000 Euros by scrapping a minority interest.

Not having a roof over your head or food to put on the table affects qualtiy of life, not having an orchestra pales into insignificance.

Thal

And do you really believe that scrapping the MCO would alleviate the troubles of the people you mention? Or would you agree that something like dumping €5 BILLION into the cryptocorrupt government of Greece does so a lot more? Nobody in this land has an empty table, or no roof over their head. Moreover, are the troubles quite a few have in debts or credit cards not at least their own responsibillity?

If we were to scrap each minority interest, what would that lead to? Yes, we could build a lot of houses if we sold all the Rembrandts we have. And? You could build a lot more if we stopped pouring money in all those footbaal clubs that have no responsibillity whatsoever in finance?

The amount "saved" by scrapping the MCO pales when compared to all the money spent on God knows what bottomless pits the Govs happily continue to spend!

But by all means, if you think that scrapping something of worldwide fame and name and what gives joy and pleasure to any amount of people, please do not sign the petition! In return I promise that, if ever the accident happens and your collection is threatened by fire, I will shrug in desinterest and hope no fireman has any interest in the interests of merely one.

gep

[thalbergmad]

I am sure that any Dutch person denied life saving drugs due to lack of funding can comfort themselves by the fact that they can spend their last days in excrutiating pain at the opera.

Thal

[thalbergmad]

Nobody in this land has an empty table, or no roof over their head.

There are a few outside Central Station.

Thal

[birba]

I'd like to know where that place is.  I wasn't aware that there was ANY country in the world that didn't have homeless and starving people.

[thalbergmad]

In return I promise that, if ever the accident happens and your collection is threatened by fire, I will shrug in desinterest and hope no fireman has any interest in the interests of merely one.

If it was, I would probably ring the fire brigade (an essential service) and not the London Philharmonic (non essential service).

Anyway, it is all digitalised and saved on 3 different hard drives.

Thal

[thalbergmad]

I'd like to know where that place is.  I wasn't aware that there was ANY country in the world that didn't have homeless and starving people.

There isn't, he is talking sh*t.

Anyway, looks like there will be a large concert hall for a load of homeless people to stay.

A far better use.

Thal

[gep]

There are a few outside Central Station.

Thal

Everybody in this country (even those who are illegally  here) has a right to social (financial) support (on a rather higher level than in the UK), and a right to a house. Being a drunk or a junk does not alter that. Those who are outside the Central Station (I think you mean Amsterdam) or in any other place are there not because the government supports an orchestra, but due to their own conduct.
Nobody is starving in this country. That might alter when people like Thal were to run the place, judging from some of his earlier posts...
Do allow for the fact that I may know a tiny bit more about the runnings of this land than you, having lived here several decades.

There isn't, he is talking sh*t.

Apparently you feel fit to judge such things. By all means do continue.

If it was, I would probably ring the fire brigade (an essential service) and not the London Philharmonic (non essential service).

Ah, it seems you are fit to judge if anything is sh*t, being an expert.

gep

[ahinton]

If it was, I would probably ring the fire brigade (an essential service) and not the London Philharmonic (non essential service).

And what if they didn't turn up in time to save your collection? Seriously, though, the essentiality of the fire department's and the London Philharmonic Orchestra's services are an utter irrelevance in a context in which no one would any more expect to consider calling the latter to put out a fire than the former to give an orchestral concert.

Anyway, it is all digitalised and saved on 3 different hard drives.

...which could also go up in smoke in the fire temperature got high enough.

Whilst the service that you provide with your collection is, as I have said on more than one previous occasion, wholly admirable and valuable, it is not an "essential" service either, but that's not quite the point. What are you scanning? Manuscripts? No (or, I imagine, very rarely). It's publications that are for the most part out of print. In a climate in which orchestras, organisations that broadcast Western classical music, music libraries, conservatoires and other music education establishments are successively axed, what would be the point of music publishers? Once they've also gone to the wall as a result of that climate and once a few decades of subsequent existence in a Western classical music free zone have passed, the likelihood is that you'd be able to find almost nothing left to scan.

It surely requires but little intelligence to recognise that the ultimate long-term effect of the implementation of these Dutch proposals - especially if the Netherlands example were to be followed elsewhere - could well be the wholesale destruction of an entire area of cultural life both within and outside the Netherlands; in a situation where global personal, corporate and state indebtedness on an unprecedented scale has not actually been brought about by the continued existence of orchestras, music broadcasters and the like, can you perceive a grain of possible injustice - if not actual absurdity - here?

As the petitioner tally approaches 18,000 and continues to rise, perhaps you might care to give all of this a little thought.

Best,

Alistair

[gep]

Imagine, an official from the British National (Socialist) Party, caring, as they do, for the poor and homeless, would decide that Thal's collection is "only of interest to a vanishing small amount of people", and then (forcibly, if need be) would remove Thal's entire collection, hard discs and all, in order to make a buck out of it to help the (suitably British, of course) poor and homeless. Surely those poor and homeless Brits would have more use of food bought from that money than they have by the existence of Thal's collection?

By all means let's abolish everything cultural that has no direct benefit for the poor and homeless. It would mean a return to something like 3,000,000BC, but hey, never mind!

gep

[thalbergmad]

Manuscripts? No (or, I imagine, very rarely). It's publications that are for the most part out of print.

Manuscripts yes, and you imagine incorrectly. Three in this weekend only. I have almost run out of published scores.

As i said before, I am not in receipt of government funds so i fail to see the relevance of my hobby to the content of this thread.

Thal

[thalbergmad]

Everybody in this country (even those who are illegally  here) has a right to social (financial) support (on a rather higher level than in the UK), and a right to a house.

They might have a right, but does it actually happen??

Would you prefer to chuck out all the immigrants and keep the orchestra??

Thal

[thalbergmad]

Imagine, an official from the British National (Socialist) Party, caring, as they do, for the poor and homeless, would decide that Thal's collection is "only of interest to a vanishing small amount of people", and then (forcibly, if need be) would remove Thal's entire collection, hard discs and all, in order to make a buck out of it to help the (suitably British, of course) poor and homeless. Surely those poor and homeless Brits would have more use of food bought from that money than they have by the existence of Thal's collection?

Just once more, so hopefully it will penetrate your brain:

I HAVE PAID FOR IT ALL MYSELF. OUR GOVERNMENT DOES NOT PAY MY VISA BILL.

Hope this is a little clearer.

Thal

[thalbergmad]

...which could also go up in smoke in the fire temperature got high enough.

It would have to be very high indeed.

One of them is in London and another in Amsterdam.

Thal

[thalbergmad]

It surely requires but little intelligence to recognise that the ultimate long-term effect of the implementation of these Dutch proposals.

It surely requires but a little intelligence to recognise the ultimate long term effect of not balancing defecits.

It is a minority interest that is meaningless to a vast majority of people. I don't see why a government should subsidise such a venture so plonkers like you and gep can get tarted up and go to a concert once in a while.

Thal

[gep]

They might have a right, but does it actually happen??

Would you prefer to chuck out all the immigrants and keep the orchestra??

Thal

They only need to check in at the municipal office of whatever municipality they happen to be in, yes.
Immigrants who have come here with the sole purpose of parasitising on our system, yes. They can take our native parasites with them, if they so please. Immigrants who come here and add to our society are totally welcome. If all that saves an orchestra, all the better. In fact, there are quite a few immigrants in the various orchestras
Moreover, scrapping the MCO would make several thousand people loose their jobs.

I HAVE PAID FOR IT ALL MYSELF. OUR GOVERNMENT DOES NOT PAY MY VISA BILL.

I understood all that, yes, but would it be not be a lot better if you spent that money instead on the homeless?
I wonder, if you think it is OK to scrap paying for something in arts that benefits only a few hundred thousand, would you agree scrapping building roads that benefit only a few thousand? Hospitals in which only a fraction of the populace will ever lay? Minor interest yes?

It surely requires but a little intelligence to recognise the ultimate long term effect of not balancing defecits.

Indeed so, so I would suggest clogging all those totally useless bottomless pits we keep filling. For what we gave Greece alone the MCO could be kept up and running 20 years. For our net contribution to the EEC another 12. 1 year shoving money to Africa another 28 years. Farmaceuticals spend 1,3 billion a year advertising pills in my country alone. Surely we could miss a few footrball clubs? How about 10 pop music stations, would hardly make  a dent. etc etc.

I don't see why a government should subsidise such a venture so plonkers like you and gep can get tarted up and go to a concert once in a while.

And if all music making would be eradicated your hobby would come to a halt, too. You'd survive, I think...

gep

[ahinton]

Manuscripts yes, and you imagine incorrectly. Three in this weekend only. I have almost run out of published scores.

OK, then I gladly stand corrected - at least on that point.

As i said before, I am not in receipt of government funds so i fail to see the relevance of my hobby to the content of this thread.

No one has suggested that you are in receipt of government subsidy for your "hobby" and I do not seek to claim any particular relevance of that hobby to this thread as such; the point that I made was that, if the kinds of cuts to musical education, creation, performance, broadcast and librarianship were to be made and then spread to other states, music publishers would go out of business and there would also be far less music to publish because composers would have little incentive, with or without commissions, to write any because performance prospects would be very small indeed, so, in time, your "hobby" would similarly be compromised by the lack of available material to scan, be it in the form of publications or manuscripts.

I hope that this is now clearer.

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

They might have a right, but does it actually happen??

Would you prefer to chuck out all the immigrants and keep the orchestra??

I cannot answer the first question as I do not know it, but the other one is not even worth answering, as it would not be necessary to do this; that said, if the orchestras are disbanded, their ex-members, Dutch and otherwise, might have to emigrate from the Netherlands.

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

Just once more, so hopefully it will penetrate your brain:

I HAVE PAID FOR IT ALL MYSELF. OUR GOVERNMENT DOES NOT PAY MY VISA BILL.

We all knew this already and I do not see where gep has suggested otherwise, but the fact of who's paid for it is not the point, which is instead that you're only able to do what you do because you are still able to source material with which to do it, whereas, in time, you'll run out of such material if the practice of Western classical music declines sufficiently.

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

It would have to be very high indeed.

One of them is in London and another in Amsterdam.

Not at all; that would simply necessitate two fires.

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

It surely requires but a little intelligence to recognise the ultimate long term effect of not balancing defecits.

Of course that is the case - but then is it not also the case that addressing such national indebtedness first requires an understanding of what brought it about in the first place? - and I don't think that even you would regard orchestras as the culprits!

It is a minority interest that is meaningless to a vast majority of people.

There are many minority interests, some of which attract public and private subsidy, some of which attract one or the other and the rest of which attract none. Would you therefore advocate the destruction of all subsidised or part-subsidised minority interests because that's what they are?

I don't see why a government should subsidise such a venture so plonkers like you and gep can get tarted up and go to a concert once in a while.

Clearly you don't see anything much at all. Gep and I are hardly the only concertgoers in the world, after all. But never mind that - if the "minority interest" status of Western classical music (on which I think we all agree) is so bad a thing when it attracts any public subsidy (on which we don't agree), why not withdraw all such subsidy from all its manifestations, including schools, academies, colleges, conservatoires, universities, radio and television stations, the internet, practice studios, public concert venues and the rest?

I do not and never have advocated undue public subsidy for Western classical music, as too much subsidy from a single source may be dangerous, but it is self-evident that it cannot survive without subsidy from public, private and corporate sources as well as the proceeds of sale of tickets, broadcasts, recordings and the like, so it needs all the subsidy that it can get from every possible legal source.

Without it, it will be condemned to a slow and painful death, some time after which there will, as I have already pointed out, be no point in you doing what you do and nothing with which to do it in any case. Do you really think that this would be a good idea?

One might argue that sending British armes forces personnel to non-aggressor countries is also something of a minority interest, but all taxpayers continue to subsidise it nonetheless.

Best,

Alistair

[birba]

The way I see it is Europe is having to undergo a radical change in the government subsidies for "culture".  Being an American, I have seen it even over there, where most of the subsidies came from private foundations.  In the 70's 80's and 90's, I think we had more top-class orchestras then anywhere else in the world.  All the secondary ones are disappearing because of lack of funds.  Not so much state funds, which made up only a small part of their income, but in private subsidies, which benefited from tax deductions as well.  The economic crisis has hit hard, and you can bet that the first to feel the tightening on the money strings will be "culture".  When I came over to Italy in the 70's, there were 4 state orchestras.  There is now 1, made up of all those who opted for keeping their job rather then a handsome severence pay.   Gradually, that will be eliminated as well.  Opera houses, if they aren't closing all together, are reducing their season because they can't afford the cuts they've had in government funding.  They're trying to turn these opera houses and symphonic orchestras into private foundations.  Of course, it's not working.  Not only because the private companies get no fiscal benefits out of donating to these institutions (other then free advertisement), but it's just not in the mentality of the Italians.  And I think this goes in general for all of Europe.  When I came over here, I couldn't believe the number of music conservatories - true, not very good ones - but the fact that the state would pay for musical education?!  Coming from America where there is one school in the entire nation (High school for the performing arts in NY) it was, to say the least, mind-boggling.  But it was only a matter of time before even this would change.  After the war, the state took EVERYTHING on its shoulders.  Nothing was left to private investors, because they're weren't any.  And it has stayed like that for 50 years.  Only now, they're beginning to realize it can't go on like this.  Those times are finished.  As well as  the great musical and cultural life that benefitted from those subsidies.  I imagine this is what is happening in Holland.  It's a changing of the times, due mostly to the great economic crisis the entire world has undergone.

[ahinton]

The way I see it is Europe is having to undergo a radical change in the government subsidies for "culture".  Being an American, I have seen it even over there, where most of the subsidies came from private foundations.  In the 70's 80's and 90's, I think we had more top-class orchestras then anywhere else in the world.  All the secondary ones are disappearing because of lack of funds.  Not so much state funds, which made up only a small part of their income, but in private subsidies, which benefited from tax deductions as well.  The economic crisis has hit hard, and you can bet that the first to feel the tightening on the money strings will be "culture".  When I came over to Italy in the 70's, there were 4 state orchestras.  There is now 1, made up of all those who opted for keeping their job rather then a handsome severence pay.   Gradually, that will be eliminated as well.  Opera houses, if they aren't closing all together, are reducing their season because they can't afford the cuts they've had in government funding.  They're trying to turn these opera houses and symphonic orchestras into private foundations.  Of course, it's not working.  Not only because the private companies get no fiscal benefits out of donating to these institutions (other then free advertisement), but it's just not in the mentality of the Italians.  And I think this goes in general for all of Europe.  When I came over here, I couldn't believe the number of music conservatories - true, not very good ones - but the fact that the state would pay for musical education?!  Coming from America where there is one school in the entire nation (High school for the performing arts in NY) it was, to say the least, mind-boggling.  But it was only a matter of time before even this would change.  After the war, the state took EVERYTHING on its shoulders.  Nothing was left to private investors, because they're weren't any.  And it has stayed like that for 50 years.  Only now, they're beginning to realize it can't go on like this.  Those times are finished.  As well as  the great musical and cultural life that benefitted from those subsidies.  I imagine this is what is happening in Holland.  It's a changing of the times, due mostly to the great economic crisis the entire world has undergone.

These are all interesting points - and no one is denying the extent or levels of global indebtedness - but the Western classical music factor in the Netherlands' situation is, quite simply, a minuscule one compared to the overall level and rate of increase of that nation's indebtedness; the same is true anywhere else; the extent to which the subsidy of Western classical musical activity has contributed to such indebtedness is therefore negligible.

It is not, however, true to say that the state has taken over sole responsibiliy for funding music education and subsidising public music making in any country; dependency upon corporate, trust and private sponsorship remains, in addition to state sponsorship.

The fact remains that, in the present and foreseeable global economic situation, keeping such cultural flames alive will require ever-increasing amounts of the right kind of noise-making in order to continue to attract the subsidy from all sources that they have always needed and will always need; even if the practice of Western classical music were not a minority interest, it would still need such subsidy, as it cannot by nature create its own overll profit (which is not, of course, to say that it doesn't generate any income at all).

Best,

Alistair

[birba]

Of course the cultural subsidies are minimal compared to the waste in political funding, government spending, military (!!!) allocations, etc. etc. etc.  But you can be sure, even a peace-loving country like Holland, is going to start at the so-called cultural expenses before cutting back in military spending.  We all know that there's more behind military spending then just protecting the country.
I said the state TOOK over control of the cultural activities after the war.  It was natural.  Where else were the orchestras, choruses, theatres going to get their money?  I imagine in Holland, though, there was a gradual interest on the part of private companies to continue their great musical heritage.  Not so, in Italy.
the only thing is, a private company will not contribute if he doesn't see any profit coming back to him.  that's capitalism with a capital C.  Why was Russia the big nursery for all great musicians in the world during the communist government?  Because the state thought of EVERYTHING and because it was important to them.  With the fall of the iron curtain, it's standards began to fall as well.
It's a problem, I agree.  But I seriously doubt any good will come from petitions and such, until the economic crisis is resolved.