Netherlands woes

[thalbergmad]

whereas, in time, you'll run out of such material if the practice of Western classical music declines sufficiently.

It already has declined.

Thal

[thalbergmad]

Not at all; that would simply necessitate two fires.

Best,

Alistair

ERRR, 3 actually, as i am not in London.

Thal

[thalbergmad]

Imangine the following scenario:

Patient visits his doctor.

Patient: Hello doctor, I have come to collect my life saving drugs.
Doctor: That will be £3,000 for a months supply please.
Patient: Oh, it has always been free.
Doctor: Sorry, but we have lost our funding.
Patient: What has the money been spent on.
Doctor: keeping the orchestra going.
Patient: Oh no, what am I supposed to do. I cannot afford this.
Doctor: Die i guess.
Patient: Is there anything you can do to help me.
Doctor: Certainly, here are 2 tickets to The Marriage of Figaro. Bye.

Thal

[gep]

Imangine the following scenario:

Patient visits his doctor.

Patient: Hello doctor, I have come to collect my life saving drugs.
Doctor: That will be £3,000 for a months supply please.
Patient: Oh, it has always been free.
Doctor: Sorry, but we have lost our funding.
Patient: What has the money been spent on.
Doctor: keeping the orchestra going.
Patient: Oh no, what am I supposed to do. I cannot afford this.
Doctor: Die i guess.
Patient: Is there anything you can do to help me.
Doctor: Certainly, here are 2 tickets to The Marriage of Figaro. Bye.

Thal

What a totally idiotic statement, do you REALLY believe health care here is in troubles wholesale if the MCO should be kept?
I would worry more about the totally diseased banking system, where greed and imcompetence have all but collapsed the whole system, and in which the government here alone handed over well over €100 BILLION of taxpayers money, without ever expecting to ever get it any of it back and without ever even trying to do anything about the rotten system , which now "works" as it was wont, probably soon into an ever bigger collapse. Pension funds have lost 30-70% of their assets (again, taxpayers savings) due to the same principle. THAT threatens to collapse our social system, so THAT should worry you. The costs of culture a puny compared to that.

Clearly you don't see anything much at all. Gep and I are hardly the only concertgoers in the world, after all. But never mind that - if the "minority interest" status of Western classical music (on which I think we all agree) is so bad a thing when it attracts any public subsidy (on which we don't agree), why not withdraw all such subsidy from all its manifestations, including schools, academies, colleges, conservatoires, universities, radio and television stations, the internet, practice studios, public concert venues and the rest?

A point apparently lost on Thal! What about museums, expositions, theaters, publications and what not. What about science?
If this cut goes through, it may become a springboard and excuse for cutting out annything and everything that attracts "only a minority". What if that wave hit other nations within Europe? Devestation and empoverisation. Sure, Thal, if you don't mind living in a North-Korean greyness as long as your meal flops on your plate every evening pronto, by all means do support this process. I think the BNP would welcome you. Personally, I'd like to have the opportunity to enlighten my life and mind, and I do not mind at all paying a bit extra cash so that even things I personally do not care for can get support. Of course, for that I need to think beyond my own skull and look beyond my stuffed toys collection, if I had one (but I havn't due to growing up).

gep

[ahinton]

I said the state TOOK over control of the cultural activities after the war.  It was natural.  Where else were the orchestras, choruses, theatres going to get their money?  I imagine in Holland, though, there was a gradual interest on the part of private companies to continue their great musical heritage.  Not so, in Italy.

Well, perhaps the situation in Italy is somewhat different - I do not claim to have sufficient experience and knowledge to say one way or the other - but certainly in UK there has been private and corporate sponsorship of such activities for many years, alongside state and trust subsidy.

the only thing is, a private company will not contribute if he doesn't see any profit coming back to him.  that's capitalism with a capital C.

They will, actually; most are content to benefit from the tax relief that they get as a direct result of giving such subsidies (although one could say that the taxpayer is thereby forced to help the corporation to do the subsidising).

It's a problem, I agree.  But I seriously doubt any good will come from petitions and such, until the economic crisis is resolved.

What would you suggest as an alternative? - especially since the economic crisis is not about to be resolved in this decade and indeed it may never be wholly resolved at all.

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

It already has declined.

By so saying, are you suggesting that it has declined in quality or quantity or both? The argument here would have to be around a perceived decline in quantity in order for my point to stick about the gradual decrease in availability of material for you to work with. I cannot see evidence of such a decline in quantity, actually, especially given the plethora of CDs that are launched daily and the increasing numbers of composers and performers leaving universities, conservatoires and the like, all trying to launch some kinds of careers.

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

ERRR, 3 actually, as i am not in London.

You are as far as I'm concerned! Where you're based in Kent in "London" to me, as is the whole of the south-east. But, OK, point taken; three fires it is, then.

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

Imangine the following scenario:

Patient visits his doctor.

Patient: Hello doctor, I have come to collect my life saving drugs.
Doctor: That will be £3,000 for a months supply please.
Patient: Oh, it has always been free.
Doctor: Sorry, but we have lost our funding.
Patient: What has the money been spent on.
Doctor: keeping the orchestra going.
Patient: Oh no, what am I supposed to do. I cannot afford this.
Doctor: Die i guess.
Patient: Is there anything you can do to help me.
Doctor: Certainly, here are 2 tickets to The Marriage of Figaro. Bye.

Imagine the more realistic and credible version of your scenario:

Patient visits his doctor.

Patient: Hello doctor, I have come to collect my life saving drugs.
Doctor: I am not a pharmacy, I am your doctor. I will treat you if you wish me to do so and, if I think fit, I will prescribe you appropriate drugs and, if they are needed to save your life, then so be it. Now, what appears to be the problem?
Patient: I think that I have bowel cancer.
Doctor: Let me be the best judge of that. I will send you for some tests. The fee for these will be £1,000 and my consultation fees are charged at an hourly rate of £300. I assume that you have insurance.
Patient: I never felt that I needed it before when the state funded any treatment that I might have to have.
Dcotor: So you are uninsured. I am sorry but you'll have to find the cost yourself or obtain insurance first; did no one ever tell you that the cessation of state health insurence means that you'll need your own, unless you are too poor to afford it, in which case you apply to the state hardship fund for assistance?
Patient: I don't know, doctor; I suppose that I wasn't paying attention.
Doctor: OK, so you go away, get yourself fixed up financially one way or another and then we'll see what we can do for you.
Patient: Yes, doctor, I'll take your advice. How much do I owe you for this consultation?
Doctor: Nothing; the first one is free and without obligation. See you soon.
Patient: Thank you, doctor. By the way, I read in The Daily Thalegraph that the government took away state health cover in order to continue to fund the BBC orchestras? Is that really true?
Doctor: If you believe that, you'll believe that I'm an orchestral oboist! I must ask you to leave now, as I have another patient to see.
Patient: Thank you, doctor; I'll make another appointment as soon as I have the finance sorted out. In the meantime, I'm gong to see The Marriage of Figaro tonight.
Doctor: Well, maybe I'll see you sooner rather than later, then; so am I! - but if you can afford the price of a ticket, which is more than I make in a hour, you can almost certainly afford insurance! Bye!

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

You and gep really are the biggest pair of planks i have encountered.

You speak of the collapse of Western Culture when all we are talking about is a couple of poxy orchestras visited by a small minority of the Dutch population.

Perhaps the Red Light district should have government funding instead as more Dutch people seem to visit those establishments. They must think that it better value for money than the Concert Hall.

250,000,000 euros is a vast some of money that can be better spent, rather than provide cheap entertainment for snobs like you.

Thal

[ahinton]

You and gep really are the biggest pair of planks i have encountered.

Then try visiting a building site.

You speak of the collapse of Western Culture when all we are talking about is a couple of poxy orchestras visited by a small minority of the Dutch population.

How very kind of you to describe those Dutch orchestras as "poxy"; perhaps you might care to elucidate and justify your remark on the basis of personal experience. All orchestras give concerts that are listened to by a small proportion of the population of the countries in which they perform; I thought that we'd all taken that as read. I have not written of the collapse of Western culture per se but I have warned as to what might happen to one particular part of it if the Dutch proposals become fact and if their example is followed by other countries as well.

Perhaps the Red Light district should have government funding instead as more Dutch people seem to visit those establishments. They must think that it better value for money than the Concert Hall.

I imagine that you may know more about Red Light districts in the Netherlands and their economics than I do, but just as one would not call to LPO to put out a fire or the fire department to give an orchestral concert, nor would one visit Amsterdam's Red Light district in the hope of getting the same kind of experience or value for money that one might expect at that city's Concertgebouw. That said, no doubt some gevernment officers do already help to finance it in one way or another - but let's not go there (in either sense!)...

250,000,000 euros is a vast some of money that can be better spent, rather than provide cheap entertainment for snobs like you.

I agree that the sum is not small, but if it's so vast a sum in the overall scheme of things, how come it is being spent on "cheap" entertainment? You can't have it both ways, you know! (unless you visit the Red Light district, perhaps). That said, no two people are likely to have precisely the same opinion as to how best to spend any sum, so all that you're giving here is your own personal opinion which is self-evidently not shared by the many tens of thousands that attend concerts in the Netherlands each year, who listen to broadcasts of Western classical music on Netherlands Radio and who are signing this petition.

You almost make it sound as though you dislike the very idea of such concerts and would rather that they did not take place at all!

Let's now look at this from a different perspective. Assuming that you appear to believe that your problem is with public subsidy rather than private ditto, it occurs to me to ask whether your scanning activites, although you pay for them yourself, are actually self-funding - and I rather suspect that this is not the case (although I'll be happy to be proved wrong); in other words, you sponsor them yourself from the proceeds of other work that you do and for which you are paid. Nothing wrong with that, of course.

Now, when charities, trusts, corporations and (in some cases) private individuals sponsor concerts or subsidise some public music activity or other, they receive tax relief on the sum that they pay to do it; this means that the taxpayer is still being called upon to contribute to it, albeit not directly and not to the same extent. It therefore follows that, if you disapprove in principle of public sponsorship of minority interest activity, one might well presume you to harbour similar (if not quite such vociferous) reservations about private sponsorship of them, to the extent that the taxpayer is still called upon to help it to happen; in that case, logic suggests that you might indeed be against all forms of subsidy for such activities. If Thal were in charge and brought about the withdrawal of all such subsidy, public and private, the result would obviously be that all such previously subsidised organisations would go to the wall. Is that what you'd really like to happen?

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

I imagine that you may know more about Red Light districts in the Netherlands and their economics than I do

I know nothing about the Red Light district as I personally opted for room service.

Thal

[thalbergmad]

That said, no two people are likely to have precisely the same opinion as to how best to spend any sum, so all that you're giving here is your own personal opinion which is self-evidently not shared by the many tens of thousands that attend concerts in the Netherlands each year, who listen to broadcasts of Western classical music on Netherlands Radio and who are signing this petition.

Indeed, as I have said numerous times before, all I can give is my own personal opinion. Not that of Geoffrey Boycott, The Shah of Iran or Henry Kissinger. Just my own opinion.

I wonder if my opinion would be shared by the many hundreds of thousands who have not signed the petition?

Thal

[thalbergmad]

Let's now look at this from a different perspective. Assuming that you appear to believe that your problem is with public subsidy rather than private ditto, it occurs to me to ask whether your scanning activites, although you pay for them yourself, are actually self-funding - and I rather suspect that this is not the case (although I'll be happy to be proved wrong); in other words, you sponsor them yourself from the proceeds of other work that you do and for which you are paid. Nothing wrong with that, of course.

It is all paid from interest received from my investements. I do not charge a penny for my work although I have received gifts for work done for conductors, pianists and record labels.

I am not against this orchestra or any other and can understand why you feel so strongly, but in times of recession cuts must be made and businesses that cannot stand on their own 2 feet will fail. However good they are, nobody is going to die or lose a limb if they cease to exist and we are not going to go back to the stone age having to survive off sabre tooth tiger sandwiches.

If the thousands of people that have singed this peptition feel that strongly, perhaps they would be better advised in reaching for their cheque books to assist said orchestra.

Thal

[ahinton]

Indeed, as I have said numerous times before, all I can give is my own personal opinion. Not that of Geoffrey Boycott, The Shah of Iran or Henry Kissinger. Just my own opinion.

Fortunately, I think that all of us here accept at least that much! - although the most recent Shah of Irán's been dead for far too many years to have any opinion about anything at all, I'd suggest...

I wonder if my opinion would be shared by the many hundreds of thousands who have not signed the petition?

Well, you'd just have to wonder away, I guess, although you've not answered the questions about private, etc., subsidy any more than they have done, so it must be far from clear what these 18,000+ people might think about various things.

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

It is all paid from interest received from my investements. I do not charge a penny for my work although I have received gifts for work done for conductors, pianists and record labels.

Fine - and good for you.

#
I am not against this orchestra or any other and can understand why you feel so strongly, but in times of recession cuts must be made and businesses that cannot stand on their own 2 feet will fail. However good they are, nobody is going to die or lose a limb if they cease to exist and we are not going to go back to the stone age having to survive off sabre tooth tiger sandwiches.

Much as I enjoy your imagery here, orchestras, music libraries, educational establishments and the like cannot in general survive without subsidy, public, private or both; it is not their fault that, even though they should be run like proper businesses, they cannot of themselves make a financial profit in most cases. Do remember that most of the petitioners are Netherlands taxpayers and, if they want their government to spend a tiny fraction of the taxes that they pay to it to keep these various institutions going, then so be it, for they not only pay taxes but vote to put their government in and may next vote to put them out, as is their domocratic right. I don't like paying taxes to support the minority interest of armed British forces working in certain non-agressor coutries that have not invaded Britain, but my only remedy is at the ballot box when opportunity arises; give me a decent orchestra any day!

If the thousands of people that have singed this peptition feel that strongly, perhaps they would be better advised in reaching for their cheque books to assist said orchestra.

It's not just one but three orchestras, a library, a choir and an educational establishment that are at stake here; "singeing a peptition" is not a concept with which I am at all familiar (it sounds like burning off a peptic ulcer or something), but perhaps some of those who have petitioned have indeed reached for their cheque books, but why should they do so when they've already used the contemporary equivalent to the antediluvian cheque book to pay taxes to keep them going in the first place?

No one would be "going to die or lose a limb" if your valuable services had to cease for whatever reason either, but would that mere fact justify the cessation of your services? Not in my book, it wouldn't!

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

No one would be "going to die or lose a limb" if your valuable services had to cease for whatever reason either, but would that mere fact justify the cessation of your services? Not in my book, it wouldn't!

The only thing that would justify cessation of my services is lack of funds, which at the moment is unlikely since my expenditure is somewhat under £4,000 per year.

If I had a defecit as indeed the Dutch government have, I would have to make choices of what had to go and what did not. Since my hobby is non essential to my existance or that of anyone else, then indeed it might have to go. Similarly, the Dutch government are having to make such decisions in cutting funding to non essential services, one of which appear to be these orchestras. A tough decision and not palatable to all, but in times of recession, choices have to be made.

Thal

[thalbergmad]

Just received an e mail from a friend in Amsterdam:

"It is a catastrophe for the RFO but the metropole orchestra only does
light music for Tv programmes and is not a touring orchestra or have a
classical identity. It might mean the end of one or two poor quality
programmes which I won't miss.The Choir is also no great loss. Holland
is full of reasonable or average choirs"

Thal

[ahinton]

The only thing that would justify cessation of my services is lack of funds, which at the moment is unlikely since my expenditure is somewhat under £4,000 per year.

Well, I for one am glad to hear it!

If I had a defecit as indeed the Dutch government have, I would have to make choices of what had to go and what did not.

If you as an individual had a level of deficit equivalent to that of the Dutch government, you'd have every reason to be worried!

Since my hobby is non essential to my existance or that of anyone else, then indeed it might have to go.

OK, but your hobby does not directly result in tens of thousands of people buying tickects for concerts, using a large library or taking advantage of educational facilities; I'm not, of course, criticising or seeking to undermine your operation on such grounds, of course - far from it, indeed - but it is a fact nonetheless and one which very clearly distinguishes your operation from the Dutch ones that we're discussing here.

Similarly, the Dutch government are having to make such decisions in cutting funding to non essential services, one of which appear to be these orchestras. A tough decision and not palatable to all, but in times of recession, choices have to be made.

As I and others have already observed, why penalise orchestras, libraries and educational establishment that have contributed no more than a proverbial microgram towards the financial woes of the nation when many other far more significant cuts and other fiscal measures can and hopefully will be taken that would not be destructive as this one would be?

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

Just received an e mail from a friend in Amsterdam:

"It is a catastrophe for the RFO but the metropole orchestra only does
light music for Tv programmes and is not a touring orchestra or have a
classical identity. It might mean the end of one or two poor quality
programmes which I won't miss.The Choir is also no great loss. Holland
is full of reasonable or average choirs"

Well, that's his/her opinion to which he/she is as entitled as you are to yours (although in the "light" of some of what you've written here today it's perhaps a wonder that you have any friends left in Amsterdam at all!) - but what it does demonstrate is that what's in the firing line is quite a mixed bag of entities - an orchestra that does Western classical (including contemporary), a chamber orchestra, a light orchestra, a choir, a library and an educational establishment - but the manner in which they've all been flung together in this firing line seems almost arbitrary, as though to make some kind of knee-jerk point about culture of any kind having to be put through the wringer when areas of life largely unconnected with cultural activity have wreaked such severe financial mayhem - which makes no sense to me or, it seems, to almost 18,500 others who have put their names and comments to their disagreement with the proposals.

I am, however, inclined to agree with your firend that the gravest of the six potential casualties in this nonsensical proposal is indeed the RFO.

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

OK, but your hobby does not directly result in tens of thousands of people buying tickects for concerts, using a large library or taking advantage of educational facilities

Well, i would be pretty stumped if i did not use large libraries and the NMI & KB have been of considerable use to me. Services that i pay for and gladly do so i would add.

If the price goes up, so be it. If the service stops, I will have to learn to live without it.

Thal

[thalbergmad]

I am, however, inclined to agree with your firend that the gravest of the six potential casualties in this nonsensical proposal is indeed the RFO.

I would like to make it clear that I have no "firends" in Amsterdam.

Thal

[ahinton]

I would like to make it clear that I have no "firends" in Amsterdam.

Would you? OK - well that presumably confirms that you must therefore have a "defecit" thereof!

Anyway, can't stop now - must go to have some supper at a local oriental restaurant called the Thai Po.

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

As I and others have already observed, why penalise orchestras, libraries and educational establishment that have contributed no more than a proverbial microgram towards the financial woes of the nation when many other far more significant cuts and other fiscal measures can and hopefully will be taken that would not be destructive as this one would be?

Again, I say it is destructive to some, but not to others.

One can bash the bankers to hell and back & criticse our governments until the cows come home, but the stark reality is that cuts have to be made. If you asked everyone in this forum to give a list of areas where cuts should be made, each one would be slightly different and others vastly so.

I believe here in jolly old England, that all child benefit should be scrapped and disability benefit should be strictly means tested. Those in receipt of said benefits would no doubt think otherwise. I think the bankers bonused should be heavily taxed, but other wisdom suggests that would destroy London as capitol of the financial World and all the so called "talent" would go abroad. My dear old mum believes she should not get a free TV licence or bus pass, but i say she has worked hard enough over the years to deserve it.

It is natural to want to fight for the preservation of things that are important to us, but we must try to keep an open mind and appreciate the views of others.

Anway, I am off for a Diplodicus steak since we now appear to be in 3,000,000 BC.

Thal

[thalbergmad]

Anyway, can't stop now - must go to have some supper at a local oriental restaurant called the Thai Po.

Well done. We all must do our bit to preserve our Western Culture.

Thal

[ahinton]

One can bash the bankers to hell and back

It's not just the bankers but the bankind regulators that bear responsibility for their part in this.

& criticse our governments until the cows come home

You won't catch me doing this around these parts, as well you may imagine!

but the stark reality is that cuts have to be made

Of course they do - and they will have to be so drastic that axing the entire BBC and the arts institutions in Britain wouldn't even so much as scratch the surface. Britain is one of the worst affect and afflicted countries where this kinjd of thing is concerned and it has already been put forward (albeit with how much authority I am in no position to confirm or deny) that, even if its government dismantled the entire state healthcare and education systems, the nation would still be in debt.

If you asked everyone in this forum to give a list of areas where cuts should be made, each
one would be slightly different and others vastly so.

I have little doubt that you're right about that.

I believe here in jolly old England

It may be "old" but the amount of jollity left there is surely very small...

that all child benefit should be scrapped

Well, you have no children, so you would say that, wouldn't you? I have none either but I'm not so dogmatic about it. What I would suggest is that state benefits benefits of all kinds, including retirement pensions, that are paid to people who don't need them should be scrapped (although I don't see how that could actually be done in practice).

and disability benefit should be strictly means tested

The principal troubles with means-testing are that (a) the administration involved is incredibly expensive and (b) it's so easily open to fraud.

My dear old mum believes she should not get a free TV licence or bus pass, but i say she has worked hard enough over the years to deserve it.

I daresay that she has not only "worked hard enough over the years to deserve it" but is also legally entitled to it, but consider this. I don't like to admit it but, some while ago, I received a winter fuel payment to which I was not entitled and I sought to return it, only to be met with utter rudeness of the "we don't make mistakes" variety. I still tried to pursue its return and all that I got was another winter fuel payment. I pointed this out and tried to return them both but was again rebuffed as though I was some kind of idiot who had less than no idea what I was talking about. I thought that I'd given up when a third one turned up. I made one last-ditch effort to deal with this personally at a government office and, when I was again told that I was lucky to have received it and urged to shut up, I made a rueful comment about it being abit better than buying lottery tickets and then walked away in disgust. Readers will doubtless be relieved to hear that I've never received one since.

Pension provision is, I think, on its last or near-to-last legs, both in the public and private sectors; if the money ain't there, it simply cannot be paid out in pensions (at least unless some clown does what the winter fuel payment distributors did to me). All the cuts in the world will make no difference to this situation and I never expect to receive any state pension.

I think the bankers bonused should be heavily taxed, but other wisdom suggests that would destroy London as capitol of the financial World and all the so called "talent" would go abroad.

Taxing all manner of high earners too heavily could mean that they go abroad and, in some cases, take their profitable businesses with them.

It is natural to want to fight for the preservation of things that are important to us, but we must try to keep an open mind and appreciate the views of others.

Of course - but, while we do this, let's not discourage those who do want to fight for such things from doing so - it's almost 18,500 signatories now, by the way.

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

Well done. We all must do our bit to preserve our Western Culture.

Thai Po, Thal - geddit? Typo, yes? Dear me - you're slow tonight! Too many of those hops and not enough hopping, methinks...

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

Oh i get it.

You were served by Wayne King as well?

Thal

[thalbergmad]

Taxin all manner of high earners too heavily could mean that they go abroad and, in some cases, take their profitable businesses with them.
Taxing all manner of high earners too heavily could mean that they go abroad and, in some cases, take their profitable businesses with them.

Agreed, but i heard you the first time.

Thal

[ahinton]

Agreed, but i heard you the first time.

And I heard you umpteen times about the "poxy" Dutch orchestras, government cuts and their necessity, people who don't give a stuff about minority interests such as Western classical music and all the rest, but never mind - it must surely now be approaching time for your nightcap and bed. Sleep well - and try not to have too many nightmares about petitions, the Netherlands and its Radio Orchestra, gep or Amsterdam's Red Light district; tomorrow is another day, after all...

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

I have said my piece and have nothing further to add to this thread.

Tomorrow i will find something else to argue about.

Thal

[ahinton]

I have said my piece and have nothing further to add to this thread.

Tomorrow i will find something else to argue about.

Oh, the sheer relief! Tomorrow, the Netherlands as a nation can therefore have good reason to feel that it may once again go about its day to day business without anyone getting their Thalons into it!

Best,

Alistair

[gep]

You and gep really are the biggest pair of planks i have encountered.

While I cannot speak for Alistair (if perhaps guess), the years that I resembled a plank are long gone....

You speak of the collapse of Western Culture when all we are talking about is a couple of poxy orchestras visited by a small minority of the Dutch population.

The fall of some pebbles may be an indication of the avalance underway. Not that I would consider the Dutch orchestras mere pebbles..

Perhaps the Red Light district should have government funding instead as more Dutch people seem to visit those establishments. They must think that it better value for money than the Concert Hall.

We do have government regulation on that district to provide help and care and all that to the workers there, just as in any area of work. I wonder if the UK has come that far as yet...

250,000,000 euros is a vast some of money that can be better spent, rather than provide cheap entertainment for snobs like you.

It is a lot of money, yes, but I have over the course of this thread mentioned various other things that cost several, even many, BILLIONS of tax payers money, for which we get nothing in return. I notice you have carefully not responded to any of those. Because they do not fit your argument, perhaps? Please allow me to offer you a word you might think over regarding your responses in this thread (almost threat at places): POLEMIC.
Please do provide reasons why I and anyone else visiting that "cheap entertainment" are snobs? Are snobs merely to be found among concertgoers?
Oh, I see you will not respond anymore. Hmm, yes, it is a way out of any argument you clearly cannot win on arguments but instead desperatly try outshouting the ones who do have arguments that matter. I can see why the BNP attracts you, then. Talking about the collapse of Western Culture...

Tomorrow i will find something else to argue about.

Your boss must be the very incarnation of Ghandi (with a more suitable name and colour, course)!

Mind the blood pressure!

all best,
gep

[thalbergmad]

Oh, I see you will not respond anymore. Hmm, yes, it is a way out of any argument you clearly cannot win on arguments but instead desperatly try outshouting the ones who do have arguments that matter.

There is no win in an argument of this nature. There is also no right and no wrong, only opinion.

In addition, I know it is impossible to "win" an argument with big headed "know it alls" like yourself, since you are so certain that your stance is correct, you think it beneath yourself to entertain the opinion of others.

Now that you have had your say and I have had my say, would you not think it a good idea to shut up and simply enjoy your orchestra whilst you can?

Thal

Thal

[ahinton]

There is no win in an argument of this nature. There is also no right and no wrong, only opinion.

In addition, I know it is impossible to "win" an argument with big headed "know it alls" like yourself, since you are so certain that your stance is correct, you think it beneath yourself to entertain the opinion of others.

Yours has been far less than "entertaining", actually. There may not be "right" and "wrong" in some people's estimation, but when these things disappear they'll not be reinstated overnight if and when things get better economically - and when people get to the point where they have little else left except what these organisation offer, then I would have thought you'd recognse the plight. If not, then so be it.

Now that you have had your say and I have had my say, would you not think it a good idea to shut up and simply enjoy your orchestra whilst you can?

It's not "his" orchestra, nor is it just one orchestra at stake, nor it it just gep who is concerned, as the almost 19,000 petition signatories surely makes clear.

Thal

Thal

Mon Dieu! TWO of you!

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

Mon Dieu! TWO of you!

And only one of you.

Your posts and Gep's are similar enough to make me think you are one and the same. The Gep/Hinton duality, which i shall name Gepton.

Now do you think it is a good time to let this thread die, or do you wish to have the last word as usual?

Thal

[ahinton]

Your posts and Gep's are similar enough to make me think you are one and the same. The Gep/Hinton duality, which i shall name Gepton.

Then you shoudd perhaps stop thinking and start thinking for a change; apart from any other considerations, it is, as well you know, against most forum protocols to open more than one account and parade oneself as though two or more different identities so, accordingly, gep and I can each tell you that we are not one and the same, as if you did not already know that!

Now do you think it is a good time to let this thread die, or do you wish to have the last word as usual?

Neither - for I should like, as the petition tally approaches 19,000, to hear other people's thoughts on the thread topic.

I hope that this is OK for you.

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

against nost forum protocls

If you use Latin, I am not going to understand.

Thal

[ahinton]

I am not going to understand.

No, that much has become patently obvious through the content of quite a number of your posts, but none of us can do anything much about that, even if some of us might want to.

Anyway, the petition tally has now almost reached 19,000 and, as it does so, I can only think about how sad it is that someone like yourself who has devoted so much time, energy and resources to making available music which would otherwise be very difficult to obtain appears to have so little sympathy for those who perform music publicly and do what the library concerned does for the benefit of people who, like those who benefit from your work, appreciate it greatly.

Good night.

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

Petition no. 18985 might be especially worthy of consideration; it runs as follows:

Nicklas Schmidt 13-10-2010 00.55 uur

Politicians are like diapers. They both need changing regularly and for the same reason.

Can't argue with that; can anyone else?

Best,

Alistair

[lostinidlewonder]

I can't say that I care for the decision of musicians to choose to become full time public servants. If you rely on the government to pay you for your job you will almost always limit yourself. I also cannot stand having orchestras or other government funded musical bodies exist which are not profitable. It is a waste of money, not that most governments waste a lot more on things like defense though.

Most organisations which are government supported can be less productive/competitive when funded by the government (less incentive to make profit) than if they where privately funded and owned. It would be most important to improve the education of music, this improves the musical quality of a country much more so than spending money on a limited small circle of people within orchestras and other musical bodies. Sure the public will get more listening experience with tax payers money supporting the events, but the younger generation might not be very interested in that if it is not encouraged during their schooling years. I know most of my younger students are "dragged" to performances of the West Australian Symphony Orchestra and when I ask them about it most of them say they where trying not to get bored. Australia being a sporting nation, classical music is not encouraged and many musical programs in public schools are becoming smaller or rubbed out all together from the curriculum.

They need professional business minded people to run the music sector not just people who think music, government throwing money at musical bodies is often a ridiculous act because the people managing the money are suboptimal (had personal experience with this a huge number of times). But then again, those with the good knowhow of business are associated with more lucrative industries, the classical music industry is a real minor league player and those promoting it with strong business decision making and team building skills are very far and few between.

[ahinton]

I can't say that I care for the decision of musicians to choose to become full time public servants. If you rely on the government to pay you for your job you will almost always limit yourself. I also cannot stand having orchestras or other government funded musical bodies exist which are not profitable. It is a waste of money, not that most governments waste a lot more on things like defense though.

OK, but would you prefer them to become emigrants? I agree that it would be better for these organisations to receive funding from a variety or sources rather than only from the government (assuming that the government is their only source of funds), but it's no good expecting an orchestra to make a profit, because it just won't. You can play to full houses at each performance but, if ticket revenue doesn't more than cover the costs (which it never does and never could without seat prices being grossly unaffordable), a loss will have been made. It's just one of those facts of life; not everything is inherently capable of making a net profit - a fact that the Thatcherites of the 1980s didn't understand. That isn't an excuse for inefficiency or waste, of course, but then I wonder if there's anything like as much waste in the administration of these organisations as there is in large government departments; somehow I doubt it.

Most organisations which are government supported can be less productive/competitive when funded by the government (less incentive to make profit) than if they where privately funded and owned.

This does not need to be the case and it only is so becuase a culture of this nature has become endemic in the field of publicly funded work; there may be less incentive, but there doesn't need to be.

It would be most important to improve the education of music, this improves the musical quality of a country much more so than spending money on a limited small circle of people within orchestras and other musical bodies.

But did you not notice that one of the organisations facing the axe is an educational one? It's three orchestras, a choir, a vast library and an educational facility. In any case, what would be the point of government funded music education if the educated can't then get work? Wouldn't that be considered a waste of money?

Sure the public will get more listening experience with tax payers money supporting the events, but the younger generation might not be very interested in that if it is not encouraged during their schooling years. I know most of my younger students are "dragged" to performances of the West Australian Symphony Orchestra and when I ask them about it most of them say they where trying not to get bored. Australia being a sporting nation, classical music is not encouraged and many musical programs in public schools are becoming smaller or rubbed out all together from the curriculum.

Of course I agree that good education needs to include encouraging participation in listening, playing and singing but, again, there should be no difference in attitude or aims here between state funded and privately funded music education.

They need professional business minded people to run the music sector not just people who think music, government throwing money at musical bodies is often a ridiculous act because the people managing the money are suboptimal (had personal experience with this a huge number of times). But then again, those with the good knowhow of business are associated with more lucrative industries, the classical music industry is a real minor league player and those promoting it with strong business decision making and team building skills are very far and few between.

That's the whole point; you have now yourself admitted that "the classical music industry is a real minor league player" in the business sector and this is because it is a minority interest that is inherently incapable of making profits, however efficiently it may be run. That said, I agree that everything on which a government spends taxpayers' money needs to be run as far as possible like a business. State health funding (not a minority interest!) is hardly likely to make a profit either, however efficiently it is run, but that's no excuse for inefficiency and waste and no incentive not to run it as a business.

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

ven if some of us might want to.

No good at Norwegian either.

Have we reached the jolly old 19,000 yet??

Thal

[gep]

Most organisations which are government supported can be less productive/competitive when funded by the government (less incentive to make profit) than if they where privately funded and owned.

This is part of the actual problem her in The Netherlands, where the present system is not flexible enough due to over-regulation (something of a woe in pretty much everything here), so a reorganising into something more flexible would be desirable. Being the Dutch government, they would want to exactly regulate that flexibillity, though....
There is nothig wrong, indeed it would be desirable, if individuals and organistations and institutions think of ways to genererate income. Without that meaning they would have so surrender leadership to the various private funders, for multiple captains at the helm of a single ship will make it go down. I frequent a small hall which has managed exactly that, finding funders who like to fund said hall so it can be and continue as it is and cooperating with other insitutions with simillar interests.
Their are things that will never be able to run on private funding alone. Think of something like the Rembrandt House. Any idea what the costs are for security and insurance alone? Of course it can (and does) generate income of its own, but its collection is a national treasure and heritage and thus has a right to some national funding too.
Yes some things are of interest to a minority, even in practical sense (if over half of the entire population would want to visit the Concertgebouw once a year their would be some teensy practical problems to solve), but if the local or national government would finance only that which is an interest to a majority of the population, what would remain? One must consider tha value some things have beyond a mere financial profit. Should we stop all support to libraries, natural riches, museums, schools, sports and all that?
Of course any government should, as any individual, keep its finances in balance. But I have in this thread mentioned, by repetition, several multi billion spenditures done by our government that are of no direct (financial) interest of anyone here, even a sole disatvantage, but it is remarkable nobody has seen the need to argument for or against them. What interest is it to my nation to spend 5 billion Euros to the corrupted irresponsible governmental financial system in Greece? Imagine what could have been done had we kept that money for targets in my own country. Nobody was asked if they were OK with handing of that money. There are several more posts like that, some much bigger too.
Of course any insitution should use the money they get from funding in a responsible and efficent way. The average museam, orchestra or hall does so, in contrast to quite a few other things (not least the government itself). Why are, for example, football clubs with a financial responsabillity that would make Zimbabwe seem an example of honest trade, get any load of money, and a small museum struggling to make ends meet get nothing and get scrapped?
I really do think it to be possible to support some of the "luxurious" things and keep a healthy financial balance. And I would agree that support should go to those who have plans and actions to aid their own support and run a responsible financial course. The argument "hey I'm an artist, so do give me a bag of money so I do not have to anything to support myself" doesn't hold with me, either.
In today's newspaper here someone gave the argument "Rembrandt wasn't on government support either". True, he got money from those who made comissions; rich customers so to say. But think where they got the money from. Usually from squeezing it from the John Doe's of the time. The financial burden then was quite a bit more askew than it is today, I think.

Have we reached the jolly old 19,000 yet??

We're past it already.

gep

[ahinton]

Have we reached the jolly old 19,000 yet??

The answer to that is yes, although in the time that it took you to type your question you could have looked that up for yourself! (not that the content and tone of your posts on the subject yesterday suggest that you would be interested to know in any case).

I might add that your complaint that so many British piano concertos are sidelined and rarely if ever performed seems to me to sit uneasily with your remarks about publicly funded orchestral performances and such performances being for the sole benefit of snobs; you can't have it both ways!

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

I might add that your complaint that so many British piano concertos are sidelined and rarely if ever performed seems to me to sit uneasily with your remarks about publicly funded orchestral performances and such performances being for the sole benefit of snobs; you can't have it both ways!

As I have said in a previous post, I would not have a problem if this Dutch scenario happened in the UK, so I am not having it both ways.

I am prepared to accept cuts that might affect my MINORITY interest for the greater good of the majority of people.

Thal

[thalbergmad]

Received another e mail from honoured CPS member in Amsterdam:

"Vis a vis the orchestral scene here in Holland to put a perspective on
this which I must be impartial about. The Concertgebouw in Amsterdam,
De Doelen in Rotterdam, the Vredenburg in Utrecht are 365 days a year
open for business (except Mondays usually) with concerts of classical,
popular, jazz etc. throughout the year in equal proportion, often
three events running on the same day in the Concertgebouw, tickets are
not too expensive and concerts are mostly very well attended. I
believe that in many of the larger cities such activities go on in a
similar manner, music making at an amateur level is very high here,
much higher than in the UK. I won't  comment about quality as that is
my opinion and not relevant. The cuts here are affecting a very small
area of the cultural package, it looks like we might well lose two or
more of our 7 or 8 TV stations, again opinion as to whether that is
good or bad is subjective.
In the area of sport there is controversy here that local councils
have been supporting professional football teams when that is not
permitted to keep their debts in perspective, I would think the
general public would be quite happy about that here, nothing will come
out of the petition, Dutch skin is thicker than the rind on the Edam
cheese, the electorate here voted for a heavy right wing change but
will probably end up with a more centre-right coalition and will
trundle on to the next crisis or election, the loss of one orchestra
etc. is of little importance to the majority who perceive islam to be
a greater threat to their existence.
Busoni once said that musicians perform too often and usually with
nothing to say, he proposed that musicians perform less, get paid
better in order that the concerts become special occasions. Perhaps
that might happen here, perhaps not, but at the end of the day I fear
the cuts will go through and may well be just the tip of the iceberg".

[ahinton]

As I have said in a previous post, I would not have a problem if this Dutch scenario happened in the UK, so I am not having it both ways.

You are; I was not referring only to British piano concertos but citing them as an example. I do accept that you're not trying to have it both ways in the sense of one rule for the Dutch and one for the Brits - indeed, i have never suggested otherwise - but if you regard the performance of orchestral music as minority material for snobs only, one might wonder why you bemoan the lack of performances of certain orchestral works as you have done.

I am prepared to accept cuts that might affect my MINORITY interest for the greater good of the majority of people.

But where's the proof that such cuts would be "for the greater good of the majority of people"? Where would you stop making them? Why only MCO in Netherlands? Why not all minority-interest Western classical music performance, broadcasting, teaching and librarianship?

Do also bear in mind that, vitally important as good and fair economic practice is and indeed should be, a nation does not function at its best on funds alone.

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

Received another e mail from honoured CPS member in Amsterdam:

"Vis a vis the orchestral scene here in Holland to put a perspective on
this which I must be impartial about. The Concertgebouw in Amsterdam,
De Doelen in Rotterdam, the Vredenburg in Utrecht are 365 days a year
open for business (except Mondays usually) with concerts of classical,
popular, jazz etc. throughout the year in equal proportion, often
three events running on the same day in the Concertgebouw, tickets are
not too expensive and concerts are mostly very well attended. I
believe that in many of the larger cities such activities go on in a
similar manner, music making at an amateur level is very high here,
much higher than in the UK. I won't  comment about quality as that is
my opinion and not relevant. The cuts here are affecting a very small
area of the cultural package, it looks like we might well lose two or
more of our 7 or 8 TV stations, again opinion as to whether that is
good or bad is subjective.
In the area of sport there is controversy here that local councils
have been supporting professional football teams when that is not
permitted to keep their debts in perspective, I would think the
general public would be quite happy about that here, nothing will come
out of the petition, Dutch skin is thicker than the rind on the Edam
cheese, the electorate here voted for a heavy right wing change but
will probably end up with a more centre-right coalition and will
trundle on to the next crisis or election, the loss of one orchestra
etc. is of little importance to the majority who perceive islam to be
a greater threat to their existence.
Busoni once said that musicians perform too often and usually with
nothing to say, he proposed that musicians perform less, get paid
better in order that the concerts become special occasions. Perhaps
that might happen here, perhaps not, but at the end of the day I fear
the cuts will go through and may well be just the tip of the iceberg".

That's indeed an interesting piece; might you care to declare its authorship? Even though Busoni is correctly cited towards its end, however, I cannot imagine that the Netherlands government would be happy to pay its orchestral musicians more to play less at a time when it's desperately searching around for cuts, would you?!

Do let us know your thoughts on all of the above.

Berst,

Alistair

[birba]

Just a little aside.  Today, I found out that the opera house here in Rome, cut the next opera with no further ado, due to lack of funds.  This is the first time this has ever happened here, regarding the main house subsription season.  I, for one, am glad this happened.  Not only because it regards an Italian main-stay course, Adriana Lecouvreur (YUCK!), but also because I hope that certain details will now come out in the open.  For example, the singers' fees.  One Giovanna Casolla who has been around since the year 33 B.C. would be getting 80,000 euros for each miserable evening she sang.  And she's not even singing the main role.  The opera house is made up of 800 employees, 200 of which are orchestra and chorus.  don't ask me what the others do.  I know this might have little to do with the great activity and high artistic quality of the Holland orchestral season, but this is certainly a sign that if it is going to happen in rome, it's going to  happen everywhere.

[ahinton]

Running opera houses and the companies and orchestras that perform in them is an even more expensive business than running symphony orchestras. Yes, the problem of unduly inflated soloists' and conductors' fees (when either of these occur) can indeed aggravate this situation, but the sheer costs involved in paying for the materials and consumables as well as all the salaries of the army of technicians, lighting, wardrobe & make-up, designers, set manufacturers, administrators, producers and directors, librarians, PR and marketing staff and heaven knows who else in addition to the solo singers, chorus and orchestra are such that massive losses would be inevitable without injection of vast amounts of funding from outside sources, be they governmental, private, charitable or corporate.

It is indeed true that this Rome example has few if any parallels with the MCO situation in the Netherlands, but what is important in recognising how all of this works is that, even if efficiencies are there to be made and indeed are then made, most public performance of Western classical music (especially opera) is by definition loss-making, so would those who rail against government subsidy for it equally criticise private, charitable or corporate sponsorship for it as well or instead of government funding purely because whoever pays for it is wilfully funding a loss-making exercise?

It's no good expecting the captains of industry to run such things, because their motivations and purposes are different, to the extent not only of running and developing efficient businesses but also ensuring that those businesses make good profits for themselves and the shareholders; you just can't do the latter in the concert hall or opera house, because ticket prices would have to be astronomical in order to achieve it.

There is, of course, a difference between businesses that depend on shareholder funding and those which can run on self-funding bases without any financial injection from any source. Even Thal's scanning operation cannot run without at least some funds and, as he has reminded us (albeit somewhat unnecessarily, I think, since I'm sure that most people here already knew it!), the source of that funding is Thal himself - but then, however efficiently Thal operates this activity, I am not aware that he is even seeking to run it as a business to generate profits. He can run it in a businesslike manner (and no doubt does) but if it doesn't generate turnover and profits it isn't really a business per se (not that I would criticise it for that).

I once read (although I cannot now vouch for the source or for the veracity) that, were all sponsoprship and subsidy withdrawn from La Scala in Milan and yet all seats for all performances there actually sold, the average ticket price there would need to exceed 25,000 euros in order for the place merely to break even.

Gep has mentioned the Rembrandts that could in theory be sold - but they'd only fetch fortunes because that's what a capitalist market place has done to the prices that they would fetch if they were auctioned (not that they will be, of course!). There is an extraordinary triptych of large paintings by Turner's younger and lesser-known compatriot John Martin that portray the Biblical flood in a kind of before, during and after manner.  Although they date from the 1930s-1840s, it seems likely that they were never actually shown together until an exhibition was mounted at Yale only a few years ago. Two of the three pictures reside in America and the other belongs to the Queen's collection in UK. It is now estimated that, were the set ever to come up at auction, they might fetch up to $100m; when one of them was sold in the late 19th century, it fetched 10 guineas...

Best,

Alistair