Showing off to student.

[lostinidlewonder]

I often get asked to play something impressive from my students to which I always oblige. One student who comes from Chile, in her mid 50's and a distant cousin of Claudio Arrau, plays piano wonderfully however she has health problems which limits her potential progress. She gets depressed almost when she hears me play, sits back reserved and says things like I could never achieve that etc etc. I have to stop playing and tell her the reality of the situation, I practice every day and my work and private life revolves around piano I also have no children of my own to look after! She plays beautifully what she can physically play, but when she observes the acrobatics you can do on the piano that she physically would not be able to achieve she seems to think that what she does is so much lesser musically which is totally wrong of course.

What I am trying to get at is that when I play for my students some start to put up barriers. They see a product of almost 30 years of piano practice and because it might be so far from where they are now they get overwhelmed by the distance they still have to go or whether they could even achieve that level themselves in their lifetime. Some of them who like piano very much listen to advanced music and aspire to learn it but when they see it played before they own eyes on a piano they start to understand how much they have to still go before even considering doing it themselves. Most students however I have found benefit from seeing their teacher perform for them, it might inspire them and open their ears to what the piano is capable of, but I have always had tongue in cheek when people draw motivation from the feats of other people rather than from their own personal endeavors (it is not to say that they can't develop their own personal path after initially wanting to aspire to what someone else has achieved).

So is it right to show off to our students when they ask us to play something impressive? Is it more beneficial or does it cloud their own current musical journey?

[nanabush]

I was wondering the same thing!

What really bothers me is if I'm demonstrating something to my student by PLAYING something on the piano, and their parent/grandparent opens the door and asks why I'm playing the piano.  I don't know, but I'd assume a piano teacher at some point has to play SOMETHING on the piano, 2 seconds long or 20 seconds long, to help clarify something.

Anyways, I'm showing one of my students a song from Grade 2 RCM called "the clock".  It's got a perpetual eighth note pattern going from G-E-G-E-G-E-etc for the left hand until the end; this is meant to sound like the ticking of the clock.  I'm explaining that the pattern has to sound like a ticking clock and that she shouldn't slow down or stop suddenly, because it would make it seem that the clock stopped (this was mostly for issues when the right hand is playing something tricky over top).  Anyways, after about 3 weeks of her not practicing the piece, I show her the gist of how I wanted her to play it, by literally playing about 8 bars of the piece.  Right away her mom comes in and says "that doesn't sound like Catherine playing..." in the most aggressive way possible.  I'm a VERY passive person, so I'm not going to scream at the mother, but I explained why I was 'playing the piano' during her daughter's lesson.  

I always seem to get that 'oh you can play it and you're just showing off' undertone whenever a parent bursts into the room.  They sit there reading a magazine for 30 minutes, and don't give a crap once they are out of the building, don't read what I wrote in the notebook, forget to pay for lessons, but have no trouble taking jabs at the teacher as soon as they hear him playing the piano!!!  Trust me, if I wanted to steal the spotlight, 8 bars of 'the clock' doesn't cut it  

[lostinidlewonder]

What really bothers me is if I'm demonstrating something to my student by PLAYING something on the piano, and their parent/grandparent opens the door and asks why I'm playing the piano.  I don't know, but I'd assume a piano teacher at some point has to play SOMETHING on the piano, 2 seconds long or 20 seconds long, to help clarify something.

Wow you must have really ignorant parents! It is essential that the piano teacher actually plays the piano as well otherwise you could just do the lesson over the phone or web camera.

...I show her the gist of how I wanted her to play it, by literally playing about 8 bars of the piece.  Right away her mom comes in and says "that doesn't sound like Catherine playing..." in the most aggressive way possible.  I'm a VERY passive person, so I'm not going to scream at the mother, but I explained why I was 'playing the piano' during her daughter's lesson.  

For young minds they tend to learn how to do things by parroting what they see from other people, this is totally ok for them to do and you can skip many steps. An adult mind however can benefit from this and should whenever possible but they tend to learn better from stepwise self trail and error. I have actually had one grandparent tell their daughter that I played piano for their grandson and they decided to stop lessons after 2 lessons because I was apparently a terrible teacher (which I found out through the grapevine as they badmouthed me to one of my own students unexpectedly). That was just because I spent about 10 minutes playing through some pieces to find out what pieces interested the child. I shouldn't have been playing their piano apparently.

If they know how to teach better then go ahead and do so! They pay me to teach and I teach, they don't pay me to teach in their piano teaching methodology, why do they want a teacher if they know better? You have to get use to stupid people when it comes to business and just move on and be proud of your product because 99.9% of the other people benefit from it.

I always seem to get that 'oh you can play it and you're just showing off' undertone whenever a parent bursts into the room.  They sit there reading a magazine for 30 minutes, and don't give a crap once they are out of the building, don't read what I wrote in the notebook, forget to pay for lessons, but have no trouble taking jabs at the teacher as soon as they hear him playing the piano!!!  Trust me, if I wanted to steal the spotlight, 8 bars of 'the clock' doesn't cut it  

Lol the clock ^__^. Sometimes I feel funny when I play grade 1 pieces, its like. Omg why am I playing this stupid easy piece its so under me, but then the major difficulties for my learning student interests me a great deal and I learn a huge amount from that. So long we play to benefit our students I think that is important. That they understand what they are looking at when we play perhaps. I like to demonstrate bad playing and good playing one after each other. I think demonstrating the subtle difference between good and bad is very instructive.

I lead a lot of my students to where they have to go but I can't force them to do it when they are practicing alone. I can force them to do it when they are in the lesson though and make them sweat! When I play something for a student I demand attention and constantly question them after I play to ask them to explain the difference then to demonstrate it themselves.

Playing students own pieces for them tends to give them a better understanding of what their piece should sound like when played with mastery. But when they observing something that is beyond their reach sometimes it can depress them. I find myself always very carefully trying to soften their feelings, trying to encourage them to focus on their own journey and the great leaps in improvement they have made. I find this scenario often,

Student: Play something impressive
Teacher: *Plays piano
Student: I could never achieve that
Teacher: *Encourage student

The last step is the most difficult because as a teacher you have to inspire your student you cannot beat them down. I know some students look at me differently when they hear me play, one never heard me play anything from my concert repertoire until a year of lessons and then they asked me to play. He started to treat what I taught differently but not in a constructive manner, like what I asked for is too difficult. This German student in his 60s who always says things along the lines of "yes but thats because you are a pianist, I am only a beginner!" so he puts up this wall that he believes is too hard to climb and only is for the elite. Not all students are like this but some individuals need a lot of encouragement, we as teachers need to be very careful to attune to our students emotional needs and I really find that showing off can be done in a good way but you have to know how to deal with your students reaction afterwards if it happens to be a self depreciating one but of course that doesn't occur that often but it does happen (most say I cannot do that but it doesn't matter, this is the normal and good approach, but some say I cannot do that and it gets me down!) It happened to me this last Friday with my Chile student most recently.

[m1469]

It's obviously something worth really thinking about.  I'm definitely still wowed and impressed when I have the opportunity to see up close and personally feats that I'm not necessarily currently achieving, so long as it's in an emotionally safe environment for me (and that is really true).  That environment is created and maintained by my rapport with my teacher and has a lot to do with the overall dynamics of that interaction, and not just in the moments of music-making.  There are definitely tasteful and then not so tasteful ways of going about it all, and I have definitely had times of being the one that is extremely discouraged by it in years past.

If you are a concert pianist, which I understand you are, then I would imagine you have a nice range of impressive pieces at your fingertips and could probably find something that is fitting for the individual asking, and for the reason they are asking.  In some cases, they are right and they probably won't --for one reason or another-- ever be able to achieve what you are achieving.  If they are honestly seeing that, then it's pretty difficult to back out of or sugar coat that after the fact.  If they have asked because they actually want to see somebody do something that they will never be able to do, that's obviously one thing.  However, in other cases, there are probably fairly impressive pieces that may in fact be achievable for them, even if it's a year or two down the road.  

You mentioned about them listening to professional pianists play music that they want to learn, but then become discouraged at seeing it happen before their eyes.  I've definitely been there.  It's one thing to hear it and to feel like you can mentally grasp the sound, and then it's a whole other thing to watch it happen and to have the motions look like a foreign language.  I've still got things to psychologically overcome, but the distance between my ability to cope with watching certain individuals play now vs. those times I have felt so discouraged by it isn't all that far apart, really (a handful of years), so my perspective is somewhat fresh still.

[ted]

I think it is the teacher's responsibility to assess, in the light of the student's personality, whether such demonstrations are likely to be positive or negative in effect. I cannot see any point in a teacher doing it solely for personal gratification, but if it is likely to help or inspire the pupil then fine. My teacher was a terrible, competitive show-off, a painful "life of the party", but I knew it and he realised I saw through him, so we were happy. I wasn't interested in that anyway. I was interested in the private,  underlying creative musicianship, which he had in abundance; that's what I wanted to learn.

So as I see it, there is no general answer to that question. It is very dependent on the people concerned. Any outcome is the responsibility of the teacher though.

[m1469]

I was interested in the private,  underlying creative musicianship, which he had in abundance; that's what I wanted to learn.

I *LOVE* this!!  That is *exactly* what I am excited about and inspired by and interested in.  I understand that there's a place for "showmanship" and there are different forms of that, of course, but I am so interested in the inner being.  I 'get' that there is a whole business out there, and there are competitions and schools and schools of thought and fame and fortune and all of that ... but then there's somehow also something else.  They don't have to be mutually exclusive and I respect the work that individuals have done and whatever advancements have been made in careers.  But I am most interested in artistic nudity.  I am most interested in communication.  I am most interested in discovery.  I am most interested in exploration.  There is this whole world, I guess, but then there is some kind of lucid, alternate reality that is somehow its own world.  Me wanty.  I want to feel what it is when/if all of that other stuff were just melted away.  What would it still be?

*twirls*

[Bob]

I wouldn't call it showing off.  It's just playing for the student.

I've seen it be demotivating for a student.  I don't know how to get around that.  The student had expectations that were too high. 

I think what the first poster mentioned about having years of experience is something you can mention to the student. 


*Bob glances at some posts above.*
My playing is untwirly and fully clothed.


I'd be interested in more solutions.  That student I had quit after he compared himself to me.  He was a beginner, doing fine at a beginner level.  What was more disappointing was that he everything going for him -- Parent playing the same instrument, a decent instrument at home, a relative doing music in college, and he was a smart top-of-the-class kid.  I couldn't get it through his head that he was doing fine and shouldn't sound like me.  But no.  He quit.  That's how that turned out. 

I also think a lot of my students tend to see me as an equal rather than an authority figure so much.  I see myself more as a guide (until I figure out what it means to teach).  And I figure my students are working at least somewhat and if something is more difficult for them, I don't want to make them feel bad about it -- It will just take a little more time.

[m1469]

My playing is untwirly and fully clothed.

Your problem, not mine.

[birba]

What age group are we talking about here?
I admit, I haven't had much experience in teaching.  They were either ridiculously little (4-7 year olds) or very advanced.  The little ones loved to see me play when I showed them things on the keyboard.  For the older ones, I was sure to have asked what they were bringing and practised madly if I didn't know the piece.  I mean, I feel you have to have some technical knowledge of certain passages to be able to show it to them, if necessary.  I've spoken with some colleagues who absolutely refuse to play one note in a lesson, saying that the student has to find it for himself (?).  Rubbish.  And many times they would ask me to play it for them.  But I was very honest and told them if I were capable or not to play it.  But I'm probably talking about something completely different here.  From what I gather, these are weekly lessons we're talking about.  I know when I was a student, I relished the moments when my teachers showed off for me, if that's what we want to call it.  Isn't that part of the teacher-student relationship?

[m19834]

Well, I guess that's just it, there are different ways to go about it and different intentions.  Nowadays, and at times in years past, I definitely tend to be on the side of drinking it in.  But, I also know very well what it's like to be discouraged greatly by it and sometimes the line between those can seem very thin.  Just to be clear though, I wouldn't wish to make a point of changing anything about how it is for me with my teacher now.

[birba]

You know what?  I'm beginning to think the age difference has a lot to do with it.  I remember one outstanding teacher  I had was only about 10 years older then me.  The relationship was much different.  But even so, I idolized him and tried to emulate him.  (NOT GOOD)

[m1469]

Idolization happens and, I think, probably it's one of the teacher's responsibilities to help a student deal with that.  I have sometimes definitely idolized my teachers.  That is what we do in life, isn't it?  I looked up to my brother all my life and began to mimic him as soon as possible.  I learn by observation and by mimicking others, quite often, until I can start to feel it for myself.  And, I believe part of a teacher-student relationship (can) includes a sense of modeling.  But, as a teacher myself and with a perspective of being a student, too, I can see how a teacher can make sure that in lessons, the time is 'about' the student in most respects (granted it's a serious student).  No, not everything within that situation will be something the student can immediately emulate, and no, the ultimate goal is not just to have the student be another form of the teacher.  But, there are phases and it's important to be aware, as already mentioned, of where all of that is.

I have remarked on the forum of wanting to be a "monster" in my playing, and it's been interesting for me to see qualities of that demonstrated by my teacher in my lesson, just to see what it looks like, sounds like, feels like to be a part of it in some way.  As a matter of fact, that's great!  But, because of the rapport I have with my teacher, somewhere in me I believe that I will be continuing to find my own sense of how to express the things that I want to express, even if not tomorrow or the next day.  As a teacher, yes, there is a need to teach artistically to the needs of the student.

As a performing artist, there are all sorts of things to consider in the business, but for a long time one still considers the audience they are playing for until they just don't care anymore.  As a performing artist in a context where the artist is expected to be performing for the sake of performing, it's a whole other beast to play things that are not going to be achieved by many others.  In a lesson where somebody is needing encouragement, where they do have potential to grow and develop in artistry and expression, where they are making a big effort to study and attend lessons, yet they are knowingly limited by certain factors, it's very important to be aware of those dynamics and what that all means.  And, at the very least, learn from those times when the effect of what one does in a lesson is not what was desired or intended.

[fleetfingers]

I am a hands-on teacher and play during lessons as a rule. However, I only play pieces that the student is working on, so they can hear how it should sound and can watch my technique. I haven't found this to be discouraging to any of my students. Because I'm playing something that they themselves ARE learning and is NOT above their reach, it doesn't overwhelm them. I do think age has a lot to do with it, too. My oldest students are 10, and I try to encourage them by mentioning that I played such-and-such piece when I was their age. It makes them feel like they are on the right track and that someday they can be really good. For an adult, it must be harder to imagine ever achieving a high level. They are more aware than children of what it really takes to be an accomplished pianist and that reality can be discouraging. Especially if they feel that they are starting too late in life.
 
As for impressing my students (and their parents) with more advanced/difficult pieces, I save that for the recital. I think playing at recitals can be inspiring to the students and it cultivates an attitude of respect for me as a teacher. I'm not even that good, but to an audience of people who can't play the piano AT ALL, anything I do is impressive. 

My nine-year-old son is studying the violin with a seriously very good violinist and there is nothing that motivates him more than hearing his teacher play. He listens to and does everything his teacher tells him to, because he wants to be able to play just like him.

[birba]

"I have remarked on the forum of wanting to be a "monster" in my playing,"
I'm fascinated by this.  Can you explain?

[m1469]

"I have remarked on the forum of wanting to be a "monster" in my playing,"
I'm fascinated by this.  Can you explain?

Well, no, not so much really.  Although I have one photo that I allowed be taken of me that would probably show more or less what I mean  .  As well, there are a couple of improvs. posted where more of the raw elements of it can be heard.  It's not really just aggression though or intensity, though okay, that's there.  It's everything I am/want to be, even the soft stuff, too.  I guess it's my whole artistic voice.  Did you know that, apparently, in order to help a person's upper range in singing, something you want to work on is the lower range?  Somehow that concept is connected to it all for me (and I think there's some very similar aspects of that to piano playing, too, actually).

[lostinidlewonder]

I'm definitely still wowed and impressed when I have the opportunity to see up close and personally feats that I'm not necessarily currently achieving, so long as it's in an emotionally safe environment for me (and that is really true).

I think "emotionally safe" are the key words. I have had students go to competitions, recitals what have you and then come back to me saying, wow this person played so amazingly etc and some even felt bad through watching the entire performance and had no one to vent their feelings to (which I think can be pretty destructive and sometimes even difficult for me to find out from them when I ask about it in the lesson). Some are simply wowed by it and impressed, but there are some who feel down and start to think less of themselves and their achievements, many keep it to themselves which I think as a teacher need to expose and talk to them about it in the safe lesson environment.

I have always thought of teaching as very psychologically based, that is your student needs to have a healthy mind if they are to do their very best learning something. There is a serious problem with how teaching has been done over the hundreds of years, mass teaching never works but we have all been forced into doing it. Some students can cope with it psychologically but many suffer silently with no one during the lesson to speak to. A teacher teaching a mass class cannot look after each of their students individually, there is just no time for that during the lesson, so those who observe that they are falling behind, getting less than average marks to the class, start to feel depressed, down, uninterested etc, because people are doing so much better than them, and they are just stupid.

I find performing for my students shows them a level that is beyond most of their reach. I like demonstrating this to students with little confidence in themselves because I can use it as a tool to get them to talk about what they think their failures and short comings are through the medium of piano. Then I can discuss life issues that brought me to being able to play the piano at my level depending on the students psychological needs. I can then ask them to describe what they do about making themselves feel better about themselves, I try to show them baby steps towards success and get them excited over winning these short term goals which works towards a medium term which thus builds towards their final goal which may be many years away. I try to relate these things to other things in their life outside of piano, whether it be school, sports, family etc. Talking in terms of their interests is essential.

So when a student ask me to play something that I have learned I notice both these positive and negative reactions, those that take it as inspiration and those who feel belittled by it. The students of mine who feel belittled I take great care to try and understand them and why they think like this. You can predict which students would react like this even before doing so, it is usually those who are not very confident in themselves. I find a handful of students need their self confidence improved and sometimes performing for them and then talking with them about how they feel is quite therapeutic. It is difficult however to put in words what to say to a student like this because how you relate to each student is different. But for youngsters I always try to make them realize how much work I put into my piano playing and that whatever I do doesn't come without this hard work. Some of them think that you can play at a high standard simply because you can, not because of the steps and long planning in your life you have had to make to get to that point, they still don't fully understand the power of long term goal setting and persistent effort over years and years, I have to say however that I do come across older students who still don't totally this understand it either.

.....I would imagine you have a nice range of impressive pieces at your fingertips and could probably find something that is fitting for the individual asking, and for the reason they are asking.  In some cases, they are right and they probably won't --for one reason or another-- ever be able to achieve what you are achieving.  If they are honestly seeing that, then it's pretty difficult to back out of or sugar coat that after the fact.  If they have asked because they actually want to see somebody do something that they will never be able to do, that's obviously one thing.  However, in other cases, there are probably fairly impressive pieces that may in fact be achievable for them, even if it's a year or two down the road.  

Yes, what I play for them always depends I guess. But even if I play something that is say only 8th grade I would say a good 70-80% of my beginner students would never achieve that level. Not because they can't but because they don't have the personal urge to do so. They just like to hear these "difficult" things done by other people and their mind is set that it is a level they can never achieve but can gawk at. I like to take apart this unproductive thinking from my younger students, I find it my duty as a teacher to do so and force them to understand the hard work that goes behind doing anything in life at a higher standard. To me this type of thinking kills your dreams and aspirations, it will reduce your potential and persistent willingness to aim for the stars, it gives you excuses not to apply yourself.

... I cannot see any point in a teacher doing it solely for personal gratification, but if it is likely to help or inspire the pupil then fine.

Yeah I think it would be ridiculous to play something out of the students league if they didn't ask for it. I remember going to a piano store to test out some pianos and the piano salesman kept playing the piano for me and wouldn't let me play. He showed me like 10+ pianos for 30 minutes not letting me touch it and just playing all of his music (repeating a simplified version of Warsaw concerto many times) which was pretty good but he could have been a student of mine . In the end I asked him if I could play and he let me, then walked away when I started to play the original version of the Warsaw Concerto. He didn't speak a word to me after that but he let me play on all the pianos. This man in his late 40s I would say reacted negatively when listening to someone better than himself play the piano. Someone who reacted positively would start talking to you more about piano or whatever! That is the normal reaction I get and it is good, but the negative reactions my heart goes out for them because I want to know why they think like this, I can't grab this piano salesman and sit him down and start talking to him about it, the environment is just totally unsafe for him.

But I have to also be careful not to misinterpret someones reaction. I know some people do not talk to me after hearing me because they might be too shy to talk to someone to plays piano or taken by surprise or whatever. I remember in Turkey I played for a restaurant which happened to have a piano (something that I found difficult to find in Turkey!) When we left there where a few of the staff standing at the door waiting for us to leave. I really didn't take notice of it but I did smile and say goodbye to them all. I though it was part of the service perhaps. But then my uncle who is Turkish said that they where very impressed and don't always stand and the door to see their customers out.

I also remember going to a smoking room in Turkey and an old man waved at me but as a westerner it looked like a "go away" gesture, but it actually meant come here, he was inviting me to sit down. So I guess what I am getting at is that we misinterpret people on many levels and we are all so unique and different. The ethnic background your students is generally important to understand. Like how the Australian Chinese compared to the Caucasian Aussie, generally their views on work ethic are different. We have to be careful of our students cultural background but of course focus on the individual first, their cultural background and expectations helps us understand them better.

What age group are we talking about here?

All ages, but generally I find the under 25's who have a tendency to feel negative over observing someone who is much better than themselves. I know myself even though I trained myself at a high level still got depressed and annoyed when I heard a 9 year old child play something that I could only play when I was a teenager, or a blind person playing something that challenges you with sight. You get over these things, eventually you ignore them because you are so interested in where you are going. It is wonderful to see other peoples journey and enjoy it and be happy for them. We have to stop comparing ourselves, but this is very difficult and quite an inbuilt human function, most of us master it with time but there are plenty that suffer in silence their whole life.

...I feel you have to have some technical knowledge of certain passages to be able to show it to them, if necessary.  I've spoken with some colleagues who absolutely refuse to play one note in a lesson, saying that the student has to find it for himself (?).  Rubbish.

I totally agree, actions say a hundred words. There are some things at piano which are extremely slow and inefficient to put into words and especially since a students attempt at the correct technique requires custom directions, putting these in words is just too confusing for them. You take their hand, improve their position, demonstrate it with your own hand, get into their heads to know what they are thinking while they are doing it, what are they feeling, when they make a change what does the change feel like, what is the small difference between right and wrong etc etc. We of course try to put these actions into words so that they can actively practice the motion with confidence and not rely completely on their muscular memory but a combination, conscious memory understanding the general rules and the muscular which confirms it and elaborates upon it.

I am a hands-on teacher and play during lessons as a rule. However, I only play pieces that the student is working on, so they can hear how it should sound and can watch my technique. I haven't found this to be discouraging to any of my students. Because I'm playing something that they themselves ARE learning and is NOT above their reach, it doesn't overwhelm them.

I play for all of my students their pieces as well. It is a vital tool as a music teacher I find and you can transfer more knowledge faster doing this than simply allowing them to play and talking specific words pertaining to their challenges. We must do both of course. I find how I talk to my students as they play is always different as well, some can't focus when I say a lot so I say symbols and shapes depending upon what they can personally understand as the mental chunk. Some students of mine are interested in what I can play and what is the most difficult piece I play. Which I always groan on in inside when they request that. Usually it is because they heard someone amazing at their school and never heard piano played like that before and want to know if I can do anything like that, it is a fair enough request I guess. Some prospective students of mine ask me to play before taking lessons. I think this is also a fair request since who wants a teacher who cannot actually demonstrate anything and is all talk?

As for impressing my students (and their parents) with more advanced/difficult pieces, I save that for the recital. I think playing at recitals can be inspiring to the students and it cultivates an attitude of respect for me as a teacher. I'm not even that good, but to an audience of people who can't play the piano AT ALL, anything I do is impressive.  

I personally find it hard to resist and play something below my level or "slow and sleepy" if they ask for a demonstration. I guess in the back of my head I still think I have to show off to satisfy whatever expectations of me as a teacher they have. But is not really showing off, its just playing music that I learn which might happen to sound advanced, its not my fault!!!  I can't stand to play something sleepy and slow if they ask me to play something, most people want to see some acrobatics. But I have actually been indirectly told to play something "less noisy" by an older student of mine who was 80+, she said it by putting her hands on her ears lol. That put me in my place, you little whippersnapper stop hurting my ears and play something gentle and pretty NOW!!!!

[m1469]

I think "emotionally safe" are the key words. I have had students go to competitions, recitals what have you and then come back to me saying, wow this person played so amazingly etc and some even felt bad through watching the entire performance and had no one to vent their feelings to (which I think can be pretty destructive and sometimes even difficult for me to find out from them when I ask about it in the lesson). Some are simply wowed by it and impressed, but there are some who feel down and start to think less of themselves and their achievements, many keep it to themselves which I think as a teacher need to expose and talk to them about it in the safe lesson environment.

I have always thought of teaching as very psychologically based, that is your student needs to have a healthy mind if they are to do their very best learning something. There is a serious problem with how teaching has been done over the hundreds of years, mass teaching never works but we have all been forced into doing it. Some students can cope with it psychologically but many suffer silently with no one during the lesson to speak to. A teacher teaching a mass class cannot look after each of their students individually, there is just no time for that during the lesson, so those who observe that they are falling behind, getting less than average marks to the class, start to feel depressed, down, uninterested etc, because people are doing so much better than them, and they are just stupid.

I find performing for my students shows them a level that is beyond most of their reach. I like demonstrating this to students with little confidence in themselves because I can use it as a tool to get them to talk about what they think their failures and short comings are through the medium of piano. Then I can discuss life issues that brought me to being able to play the piano at my level depending on the students psychological needs. I can then ask them to describe what they do about making themselves feel better about themselves, I try to show them baby steps towards success and get them excited over winning these short term goals which works towards a medium term which thus builds towards their final goal which may be many years away. I try to relate these things to other things in their life outside of piano, whether it be school, sports, family etc. Talking in terms of their interests is essential.

So when a student ask me to play something that I have learned I notice both these positive and negative reactions, those that take it as inspiration and those who feel belittled by it. The students of mine who feel belittled I take great care to try and understand them and why they think like this. You can predict which students would react like this even before doing so, it is usually those who are not very confident in themselves. I find a handful of students need their self confidence improved and sometimes performing for them and then talking with them about how they feel is quite therapeutic. It is difficult however to put in words what to say to a student like this because how you relate to each student is different. But for youngsters I always try to make them realize how much work I put into my piano playing and that whatever I do doesn't come without this hard work. Some of them think that you can play at a high standard simply because you can, not because of the steps and long planning in your life you have had to make to get to that point, they still don't fully understand the power of long term goal setting and persistent effort over years and years, I have to say however that I do come across older students who still don't totally this understand it either.

Yes, what I play for them always depends I guess. But even if I play something that is say only 8th grade I would say a good 70-80% of my beginner students would never achieve that level. Not because they can't but because they don't have the personal urge to do so. They just like to hear these "difficult" things done by other people and their mind is set that it is a level they can never achieve but can gawk at. I like to take apart this unproductive thinking from my younger students, I find it my duty as a teacher to do so and force them to understand the hard work that goes behind doing anything in life at a higher standard. To me this type of thinking kills your dreams and aspirations, it will reduce your potential and persistent willingness to aim for the stars, it gives you excuses not to apply yourself.

Yeah I think it would be ridiculous to play something out of the students league if they didn't ask for it. I remember going to a piano store to test out some pianos and the piano salesman kept playing the piano for me and wouldn't let me play. He showed me like 10+ pianos for 30 minutes not letting me touch it and just playing all of his music (repeating a simplified version of Warsaw concerto many times) which was pretty good but he could have been a student of mine . In the end I asked him if I could play and he let me, then walked away when I started to play the original version of the Warsaw Concerto. He didn't speak a word to me after that but he let me play on all the pianos. This man in his late 40s I would say reacted negatively when listening to someone better than himself play the piano. Someone who reacted positively would start talking to you more about piano or whatever! That is the normal reaction I get and it is good, but the negative reactions my heart goes out for them because I want to know why they think like this, I can't grab this piano salesman and sit him down and start talking to him about it, the environment is just totally unsafe for him.

But I have to also be careful not to misinterpret someones reaction. I know some people do not talk to me after hearing me because they might be too shy to talk to someone to plays piano or taken by surprise or whatever. I remember in Turkey I played for a restaurant which happened to have a piano (something that I found difficult to find in Turkey!) When we left there where a few of the staff standing at the door waiting for us to leave. I really didn't take notice of it but I did smile and say goodbye to them all. I though it was part of the service perhaps. But then my uncle who is Turkish said that they where very impressed and don't always stand and the door to see their customers out.

I also remember going to a smoking room in Turkey and an old man waved at me but as a westerner it looked like a "go away" gesture, but it actually meant come here, he was inviting me to sit down. So I guess what I am getting at is that we misinterpret people on many levels and we are all so unique and different. The ethnic background your students is generally important to understand. Like how the Australian Chinese compared to the Caucasian Aussie, generally their views on work ethic are different. We have to be careful of our students cultural background but of course focus on the individual first, their cultural background and expectations helps us understand them better.

All ages, but generally I find the under 25's who have a tendency to feel negative over observing someone who is much better than themselves. I know myself even though I trained myself at a high level still got depressed and annoyed when I heard a 9 year old child play something that I could only play when I was a teenager, or a blind person playing something that challenges you with sight. You get over these things, eventually you ignore them because you are so interested in where you are going. It is wonderful to see other peoples journey and enjoy it and be happy for them. We have to stop comparing ourselves, but this is very difficult and quite an inbuilt human function, most of us master it with time but there are plenty that suffer in silence their whole life.

I totally agree, actions say a hundred words. There are some things at piano which are extremely slow and inefficient to put into words and especially since a students attempt at the correct technique requires custom directions, putting these in words is just too confusing for them. You take their hand, improve their position, demonstrate it with your own hand, get into their heads to know what they are thinking while they are doing it, what are they feeling, when they make a change what does the change feel like, what is the small difference between right and wrong etc etc. We of course try to put these actions into words so that they can actively practice the motion with confidence and not rely completely on their muscular memory but a combination, conscious memory understanding the general rules and the muscular which confirms it and elaborates upon it.

I play for all of my students their pieces as well. It is a vital tool as a music teacher I find and you can transfer more knowledge faster doing this than simply allowing them to play and talking specific words pertaining to their challenges. We must do both of course. I find how I talk to my students as they play is always different as well, some can't focus when I say a lot so I say symbols and shapes depending upon what they can personally understand as the mental chunk. Some students of mine are interested in what I can play and what is the most difficult piece I play. Which I always groan on in inside when they request that. Usually it is because they heard someone amazing at their school and never heard piano played like that before and want to know if I can do anything like that, it is a fair enough request I guess. Some prospective students of mine ask me to play before taking lessons. I think this is also a fair request since who wants a teacher who cannot actually demonstrate anything and is all talk?

I personally find it hard to resist and play something below my level or "slow and sleepy" if they ask for a demonstration. I guess in the back of my head I still think I have to show off to satisfy whatever expectations of me as a teacher they have. But is not really showing off, its just playing music that I learn which might happen to sound advanced, its not my fault!!!  I can't stand to play something sleepy and slow if they ask me to play something, most people want to see some acrobatics. But I have actually been indirectly told to play something "less noisy" by an older student of mine who was 80+, she said it by putting her hands on her ears lol. That put me in my place, you little whippersnapper stop hurting my ears and play something gentle and pretty NOW!!!!

What "I feel for" music and piano is eternal.

[kelly_kelly]

My teacher never "plays for me" during a lesson outside demonstrations, but I guess that's because I would never ask her to. I go to her performances when she gives them, of course, but she and I both know that I have a pretty good idea of what piano repertoire has to offer. It is sometimes momentarily discouraging to me when she can sight read my pieces more correctly and musically than I can after having practiced them, but then I get a hold of myself and remember, "Wait... she's been training for this for more than 50 years, at least three times as long as I've been alive. I don't even want the same things from music as she did, so I have absolutely no reason to compare myself to her" and then all is well  It's other students that are more likely to discourage me...

[m1469]

Yeah, I have to interject once again even though I don't mean to be.  After your last post, Losty, I had a "long" conversation with myself in a few minutes time.  Some of which is a very used up "audio track" that I have heard in my head for years, and probably shouldn't listen to anymore.  Sometimes I need to deal with things and not ignore them, but sometimes the problem is dealt with by going to the piano and practicing focusedly instead of brewing in psychological things.

My one interjection regarding all of it though, is that sometimes in some cases, like mine, for example, it's not helpful to "explain" that the reason a person can play as they do when I can't is because of the years they have been studying and the years of care and expert training they have had.  At least it doesn't help me if that's all I'm supposed to come to understand about it and if the conversation stops there.  To me that translates to them having had a system of support and culture and opportunity that I just never had and so what are we, yes we, going to do about that now??  I simply can't peacefully accept that I will never be able to play or express what I need to express based on what my past has or hasn't been.  I certainly don't need to be reminded of my past, and I certainly don't need to be reminded of what people can do that I can't simply because they were born into different circumstances.

I am actually still extremely sensitive to many things as it all goes and have to be very careful how I expose myself.  All of that being said, time is a funny thing and sometimes what I needed when I was a child is being found now and it's as though I can go back in time and solve a problem.  It's not all together in one package yet though, and as an adult, I have a tricky time navigating certain areas.  But, I am coming to realize that being a child prodigy, having all of the proper support and training, it's not everything and can sometimes not even be much at all if not for the individual involved in it.  So, as far as I can see in the world right now, even if a person seems to have everything on Earth going for them, it still doesn't clearly pave a pathway to divine, yes divine, expression for them.  Somehow, there's still something more that's needed, and so even somebody in my case perks her ears up at that, because to me it means that the rules of the world are not all there is to this thing.  That doesn't mean I don't need training, it doesn't mean I can actually ignore everything that music is to the world, and it doesn't mean that I don't need people to believe in me enough to help me develop.  But, what it does mean to me is that an artist is not merely or simply a "product" of the earth but probably, at some point, transcends beyond everything.

gah.  To the piano I go.

[m1469]

ehhh ... me again   :-.  I will say that, at some point that I can't even remember how long ago now it was, maybe a year ago?  Maybe 6 years ago?  Me don't know -- it actually was helpful for me to realize that part of the difference between seeing people do and play things that I couldn't was that they had simply had different backgrounds.  But, you see, that calmed me down for awhile because I thought "Okay, just give me a little time and the right circumstances and I'll bloom".  That's a little embarrassing.  But anyway, you see, sometimes my whole life is all happening in a single instance, and I start to expect more from myself.  But then, I *do* watch a YouTube or so and I think "hmmm ... maybe".  But, there's still so much I haven't done that I honestly don't know if I can live without.  Please, anybody, raise your hand if you feel you walk around being an inward emergency all the time?  I've been calmed for a bit and recently I'm less calm.  Recently I get angry at some things.

Anyway, this post was meant to say that sometimes what's suggested as far as explaining the things IS helpful, but for me in my life now, I need more -- I need to really start be doing it.  Doing the thing.  That's me (I declare), the one who does the thing.  

[lostinidlewonder]

... Some of which is a very used up "audio track" that I have heard in my head for years, and probably shouldn't listen to anymore.  Sometimes I need to deal with things and not ignore them, but sometimes the problem is dealt with by going to the piano and practicing focusedly instead of brewing in psychological things.

I think the best way to deal with stress, anxiety, depression etc is to keep yourself busy. When we stagnant and flounder that is when things get worse and worse. As the saying goes, "The devil finds work for idle hands". There are things that we never solve within ourselves but we must learn to live with it and not let it hold us back. Sometimes trying to act against what naturally occurs in us causes more problems, but learning to live with it and adapt yielding to it, it not only gives us great life skills but make us more confident in ourselves, that we can deal with life and it does not always have to be an ideal dream or constantly seen through rose tinted glass.

I think what is critical is that we do not get ourselves into a cycle or constant routine. Life is more about constantly the same thing. If my life was only piano I would do piano from the moment I wake up to the moment I sleep. I have actually done this type of study before and it made me quite depressed and annoyed with life. So a balance in life is so important. When You see someone better that you in one thing you can be sure that you are better than them in another area. Whether that be you can listen to people better than them, or you are more pleasant to be around, you have a good idea for organisation in a home etc. For me I am good at piano since it is my profession and I obsess over music sometimes using a lot of my spare time for it, but the cost is, I am terribly disorganized, it takes a lot of effort for me to keep my house in order and keep on top of every day maintenance. My sheet music often has to go through a few hours of dedicated organisation because I find it difficult to keep things in order every day!

I think everyone can do something but there are certainly people who just don't know what they do well. It is not hard to discover the gifts that you have, some of us simply look for gifts which are materialistic or present a power that can be shown off to all that observe it.
But the gift of forgiveness, love, care for example in my mind are thousands of times more important than being able to play the piano well for instance. There are plenty of examples of very successful business people who are extremely lonely in life.

So we can get caught up over looking at life through a little prism, in the discussion of this thread for instance, we see life through the prism of piano music. I think we all consider life through different perspectives every day of our life. When we interact with our family we see life through this medium, when we are at work, or when we play piano etc. But they are all connected. If one is suffering the other suffers, if one strengthens often the others do as well. When I teach piano how my students organize themselves and work every week highlights different non music aspects of their life very closely.

I had one student who achieved the highest mark in the country for his end of high school result. His work ethic towards his schooling was very discipled and structured, he worked very hard but also had a high level of academic intelligence. His piano skills where really no better than anyone else but how he considered the music and thought about it and worked hard at it until he achieved mastery was as disciplined as any other professional pianist working for a concert. His work ethic was simply perfect in my mind, 100% consistency.

Then I have a student who tells me a lot about his life. He is in his late 50s and tells me a lot about how he was abandoned as a child, never got much love from his family, lots of struggles and tragic moments in his life. He is a very sensitive person but finds solace in piano music. But his confidence in himself and his life is shattered into pieces. I have taught him for over 12 years but often he vanishes and I don't hear from him or get response from attempts trying to contact him. Then he returns and we have lessons again. He was in a long term relationship which broke down a couple of years ago and it has been very difficult to have lessons with him over this period. He finds meaning and reason for his life through having a partner and this effects everything he does.

There are major needs in our life that can if not satisfied, cloud peoples ability to cope well with life. I think however we should be thankful for the situation that we are in. All of us in the Western world are really blessed but so easily forget about the simple gifts we have in our life. Turn a tap to get fresh water, flush a toilet, fresh water shower or bath, how many people never experience this? But westerners will think, what is so exciting about this? Why should that even make my life any happier?

I remember watching a documentary of a children choir from Africa which came from a poor place (if I find the documentary online I'll post it). They had little food there and it is poverty stricken. Then they flew over to England for performances and where totally blown away by what they saw. I remember they where taken to an all you can eat buffet and some of them ate themselves sick and some couldn't eat because they where thinking of their family back home. Some even said they couldn't understand how people in this country could be sad with so much food around. It is amazing how we look at life, these children live to be able to support themselves and their family to eat. Us in the western world move on past this need in life and get aspirations in material gain which can lead to endless suffering and stress and constant adding to our fire of materialistic wants.

...in some cases, like mine, for example, it's not helpful to "explain" that the reason a person can play as they do when I can't is because of the years they have been studying and the years of care and expert training they have had.

I think it is because you understand that it does take long term work to provide high quality produce. With my younger students some of them don't understand that in life you have to work hard long term. One week is long term for children! ^_^ But what you do play I am sure you know you play well despite comparing it to some music that might be more advanced than what you could currently play. I am not worried about pieces that I can't play because I am worried about playing the pieces I want to learn well.

What I have found interesting however is that some students I have taught have before they come to me trained in certain aspects of piano music stronger than others. Like one played heaps and heaps of Bach, another played only pop music but was very proficient in it, another only liked Mozart and etc etc. These specialists however can use their knowledge to jump into other piano areas and they in turn use their years of knowledge in what they have already been doing to make steps up in their ability. So perhaps one might play Mozart all their life but have a deep interested in playing say a Godowsky piece. Why can't they just jump and try it?

To me that translates to them having had a system of support and culture and opportunity that I just never had and so what are we, yes we, going to do about that now??  I simply can't peacefully accept that I will never be able to play or express what I need to express based on what my past has or hasn't been.  I certainly don't need to be reminded of my past, and I certainly don't need to be reminded of what people can do that I can't simply because they were born into different circumstances.

It is unfortunate but it is the reality in life that where/when you are born can effect the odds of what you will do and others in their life. I know a few young women (if you can even call them that) at around the age of 16 that had a child. A child having a child really! It totally changed their life and though they thought they could continue what they where doing before eventually they all must change and dedicated their life to raising their child. The same goes for illnesses, socio economic bracket, country you live in, tragic moments in your life etc etc. These all effect how we live through our life and it is difficult for it not to. We should not let our past be forgotten or we merely live our life without the wisdom of past experience. It is like learning piano constantly with a fresh outlook without using your past knowledge, you may fall into the same traps again which you don't need to. Some things in life we cannot change and are not there to be changed or solved, but we must yield to it and learn to live with it (by doing so you can help others who face the same challenges and let them know about how you cope with it) but we should not allow ourselves into the same cycle and repeat the past mistakes.

The main factor that determines someones success however is their determination. That is a key component of all successful people, they constantly work towards what they believe in until they succeed no matter what barriers and failures that face them. We just look at Thomas Edison and his attempts to invent the light globe, or Colonel Sanders (KFC) in his old age of 65 being forced to lose his business and then with only $105 from his first social security cheque started trying to sell his ideas getting the door slammed on at him hundreds of times. I could write pages and pages of examples.

These examples for me inspire me every time I fail in life. I know that people have failed a lot more than myself to achieve their dream, usually I only have to fail a handful of times then I get my desire, but some people fail hundreds! The greatest people in history have failed many times but they only needed to win that once to achieve an amazing dream which  developed into something they themselves perhaps never fathomed when they first began!

...I am coming to realize that being a child prodigy, having all of the proper support and training, it's not everything and can sometimes not even be much at all if not for the individual involved in it.  So, as far as I can see in the world right now, even if a person seems to have everything on Earth going for them, it still doesn't clearly pave a pathway to divine, yes divine, expression for them.

I believe everyone can play a piece of music with mastery if they work hard enough at it. You do not have to play the most insane difficult music who says everyone is interested in that? Most people actually like something pleasant predominantly. Those show off things are good in small amounts eventually the effect wears off most people. Its like listening to a blues piece, the first one is really good if you haven't listened to one for a while, but after listening to a couple more it gets boring, you lose that effect. So it is ok to present a small window into enjoying piano music, if you love one composer over the other and only want to express that, then be a master at that one composer and dedicate your time to them, who says that is a wrong path! I know there are many professional performers who tend only to play certain composers, that is what is asked from them and what they feel comfortable with and what they want to use as a medium to provide their ideas and provide new grounds and the traditional through their music. Some of us however like to be more complete musicians, not specialize but play a broad range well, this out of the reach of most amateurs, but who is to say you need to be able to satisfy such a desire?

If it provokes you such an you have the capability to do so then you probably should think about a career change. But for most of us it is merely a dream that we are not really serious in achieving. We might love one composer and love 50 of their works but only ever play 5 of them with mastery. This is a wonderful achievement being able to play even one piece with mastery no matter what level. It should inspire us and excite us because then we will learn more wont we? But why not learn all 50? And why just one composer why not some more composers and more selections? You quickly notice that your life has to change to be able to achieve our dream. It is not as simple as saying, ok I will forget about my entire life now and work out how I will dedicate myself to piano that way. You have to take your life into account, your responsibilities, where your time is divided up and what you can mentally and emotionally handle. Simply learning the piano with no goal no vision is like walking through a fog. You will go forwards but you may circle around without even noticing it. We can create a list of works we adore and would love to be able to play ourselves but once you create this mountain of work how on earth will you begin climbing it? With good tools you can conquer any mount Everest but it takes a huge amount of work and dedication on your behalf every single inch of the way up because there are places where if you stop you will slide much of the way back down.

I see dedicated work like spinning plates on top of a stick. You have to juggle many instances and constantly take care of them, if you become lazy some plates will fall and smash and you have to start again (although in piano we don't really start again since even a microscopic amount of past knowledge helps us, but the steps towards actual mastery are not clear enough and even can go backwards if you do not follow all the way through to the end), it is like this with the piano study in a dedicated form. You should feel you need to constantly take care of elements and saturate your capability to juggle many instances where you are applying effort towards mastery. This type of work is of major interest for professional pianists whose main aim is to grow their repertoire and is a habit of dedicated amateurs. But who is to say that we all have to be this way? We do not of course, some people do not have the aspiration to be able to play a large number of pieces or even very difficult pieces or even pieces with a high level of mastery! Mastery is not important but so long you can play and people listening to you enjoy it. You don't really have to play a high level to do this, which makes music so wonderful. You can exist on grade pieces your whole life and express a huge amount of colors and emotions in music.

In the end we play the piano for relaxation and enjoyment. If it was all about practice and there was no reward of beautiful music at the end why would we bother? We have to however stop comparing ourselves with other peoples musical journey and enjoy our own, but not limit ourselves in our conscious or subconscious mind, these set up barriers which restrict us from improving beyond what we think capable.

[m1469]

LIW, thank you so much for your post.  It is very thoughtful of you to have taken this kind of time and I certainly didn't expect that because of this thread, I would need it as I have.  I have read every single word of your post and will want to read it again, as well, but I want you to know that it's greatly helped me to reset my perspective, and I can see that was needed.  You mentioned about not letting a cycle happen and I am just realizing that, related to that, I need to be willing right now to take on some specific kinds of challenges instead of allowing a challenge take hold of me.  

I hadn't become more fully aware of a certain mindset, which I had often throughout my adolescense, until about a month ago.  I think that as a species we actually do need challenges because of our intelligence, but it's easy to create challenges that don't actually need to be there especially out of fear for confronting what would actually be a positive challenge otherwise.  For me, an example would be that I need to get back on stage as a pianist again at some point and it scares me.  It even scares me to challenge the fear and it's still a bit of a road to feeling like I've really got something to play.  As a side note, I believe in performing in a way that not just anybody can, otherwise why invite people to watch/hear you when they could do it themselves at home?  The positive movement and challenge in my life would be to confront the fear and move towards the goal (which I haven't necessarily been avoiding), the inappropriate challenge occurs when I am not moving that direction, not taking on that challenge, and instead creating a bigger problem for myself.  Sometimes I get lost, turned around, and confused along the way for one reason or another.

No matter what though, I know that I need to sit at the piano and practice today.  It's likely that this would all be less bothersome to me if I had never developed a taste and appetite for expression at the piano, or for performing.  The reality is that I have.  It might also be a bit easier if singing wasn't constantly barking at me, but the reality is that it is and in fact is something I do enjoy, don't want to lose, want to explore, and actually greatly helps me in my life and in playing.  That's all just the plain reality.  Often that reality leaves me feeling like I don't know what to do with myself, but I can see that I don't have to just fall victim to that feeling and instead can actively take on the challenge of really bringing something artistic to the surface today, even if only a handful of notes.

In the meantime, I didn't sleep that well last night for awhile, but something that overwhelmed me at some point was gratitude for so many things that I do have.  You are very right, it's so important to be grateful.  And, I am indeed even grateful for the simple things like running water, HOT water, food on our table, a nice bed to sleep in.  Many things.

I'm off for now and thank you again.

[sonatainfsharp]

The only playing I would do for students during a lesson is to demonstrate something in regards to their own pieces.

At recitals, though, if the majority of parents would yell out for me to play something (which always happened--long-term students and I knew the parents well), then I would show off usually by playing something really simple that sounded really tough. That way I would win them over without having to "prepare" for it, since I simply didn't have the time.

[gaest]

I remember going to a piano store to test out some pianos and the piano salesman kept playing the piano for me and wouldn't let me play. He showed me like 10+ pianos for 30 minutes not letting me touch it and just playing all of his music (repeating a simplified version of Warsaw concerto many times) which was pretty good but he could have been a student of mine . In the end I asked him if I could play and he let me, then walked away when I started to play the original version of the Warsaw Concerto. He didn't speak a word to me after that but he let me play on all the pianos. This man in his late 40s I would say reacted negatively when listening to someone better than himself play the piano. Someone who reacted positively would start talking to you more about piano or whatever! That is the normal reaction I get and it is good, but the negative reactions my heart goes out for them because I want to know why they think like this, I can't grab this piano salesman and sit him down and start talking to him about it, the environment is just totally unsafe for him.

I'm sorry in advance if I offend you, but I just want to interject that it's really not that difficult to guess why that salesman reacted the way he did, and it's rather silly to assume he needs to be "sat down" and talked to about it.  Face it, you didn't just show that you're more skilled than him, you rubbed it in his face by playing the more difficult version of a piece he demonstrated for you, and in my eyes that's pretty insulting.  And you wonder that he wasn't standing around gushing over your talent "positively"?  I think his reaction is less due to the fact that you're more skilled than him (I'm sure he's seen plenty of people better than him) and more to the arrogance of such blatant showing off as though in retaliation for him being the typical pushy piano salesman.

[lostinidlewonder]

I'm sorry in advance if I offend you, but I just want to interject that it's really not that difficult to guess why that salesman reacted the way he did, and it's rather silly to assume he needs to be "sat down" and talked to about it.

No need to be sorry because I hardly have any personal feelings when interacting with people online here.  Perhaps yourself would take the same approach if someone "showed you up". For me I have never had this reaction when i see people play better than myself, I am always very interested in how they play and what they do, I can learn from them. However some people go into a defensive ball and react with a neutral or negative response.

If you read further I did mention that we can misinterpret peoples reactions, but I do not think it is silly to talk to someone if they react badly to someone who is better than them at something. It tells a great deal about that persons history with people superior to themselves.

Face it, you didn't just show that you're more skilled than him, you rubbed it in his face by playing the more difficult version of a piece he demonstrated for you, and in my eyes that's pretty insulting.  

If I played a more difficult version that does prove I am more skilled than him in that one piece, not that it was my aim but I was getting bored listening to his simplified rendition and thought I would encourage some interest in him by playing one of his own pieces. I don't see how it is insulting as well given that he is a salesman and he is supposed to be selling me a product. In economics "consumer is king", so if he felt insulted he should change profession.

And you wonder that he wasn't standing around gushing over your talent "positively"?  I think his reaction is less due to the fact that you're more skilled than him (I'm sure he's seen plenty of people better than him) and more to the arrogance of such blatant showing off as though in retaliation for him being the typical pushy piano salesman.

Well you where not there my friend so your confidence in what happened is without basis. In fact I let him play his simple pieces for 30 minutes while he showed me his pianos, if I wanted to be rude I could have pushed him off the piano and started playing, or say that his playing was simplified and I could do better. I did not do that and in fact suffered listening to him for half an hour politely agreeing with the difference between the models. And I play piano for many people, I hardly need to impress one individual salesman or even require it. I do however as a teacher consider peoples reactions, that is what I naturally do as a teacher, you must consider a persons individuality if you are to be able to teach them effectively. so It is hard to break out of that teaching thought process and has nothing to do with insulting or looking for approval in other people (although i do realize that some people devote their life to that, although it is not my personal concern).

So please don't feel insulted when I say you don't know the facts and have misinterpreted what I wrote about the story of this piano salesman and myself.

[birba]

As an objective observer in this discussion and "reading between the lines", Mr. Gaest doesn't seem far from the truth...
no offense, of course, just eavesdropping.   

[lostinidlewonder]

lol @ offense. Stop being so politically correct I really don't care for it.

If you don't want to listen to what the source has to say, (since I am the only person on this forum who knows exactly what happened in the situation) and instead willing to make an interpretation of your own even though I have clarified that that path is not what happened, then what am I supposed to do? I will let you think that, but I don't see the reason for thinking like this.

[birba]

Seriously, I didn't want to be offensive!  I was just saying what I thought I "read between the lines" in your post.  Like "getting bored listening to him", "I am more skillful then him", "I could have pushed him off the bench and proved to him I could do better", "suffered listening to him", etc. etc. etc.
Perhaps I would have complimented him on his playing and tried to interact with him rather then teaching him...
I NEVER try to be politically correct, by the way.  There's no point to it!

[gaest]

No need to be sorry because I hardly have any personal feelings when interacting with people online here. 

Okay.  Quite a few people will react negatively when an opinion appears that is contrary to what they have, and I wanted to head that off as the pass, as it were, before this thread could possibly succumb to angry arguments.

If I played a more difficult version that does prove I am more skilled than him in that one piece, not that it was my aim but I was getting bored listening to his simplified rendition and thought I would encourage some interest in him by playing one of his own pieces. I don't see how it is insulting as well given that he is a salesman and he is supposed to be selling me a product. In economics "consumer is king", so if he felt insulted he should change profession.

Well you where not there my friend so your confidence in what happened is without basis. In fact I let him play his simple pieces for 30 minutes while he showed me his pianos, if I wanted to be rude I could have pushed him off the piano and started playing, or say that his playing was simplified and I could do better. I did not do that and in fact suffered listening to him for half an hour politely agreeing with the difference between the models.

I think it's insulting as a pianist to a fellow pianist, regardless of comparative skill or his position as a salesman.  I understand that as a teacher your first idea would be to inspire and encourage, but to a random stranger you've just met, I doubt your actions were as inspiring as you thought they would be.  You didn't physically shove him off the bench, it's true, but to an outsider it seems like you mocked and belittled him once you were on it.  Demonstrating your prowess is one thing, but deliberately choosing the harder version of the piece he performed as if to show him "this is how it's really done" is showing off, plain and simple.  Sure, I wasn't there, so I don't know what exactly went on.  But you have no way of knowing what the circumstances are to his life, either, so believing he would be happy if you showed him up is a pretty big assumption.

If I'd been in that position (and I have been, because most piano salesman are the same) and it looked like he was winding up into his salesman spiel, I'd have politely interrupted by thanking the man and suggesting that I'd like to browse and try out the pianos on my own.  That seems to work with them, or at least it has for me in the past (especially if you walk to a piano as far away from them as possible, ha ha). 

What you did wasn't a horrible sin, but I just think it was in bad taste, that's all.

[lostinidlewonder]

Thank you both for your responses, I believe it highlights the thought process of people who are sensitive when coming across people greater than themselves which is in itself interesting. However the way in which you consider I presented myself to this salesman as ham-fisted and blatant is not traits of my style or personality in person at all but certainly one could feel intimidated by me if they love the piano but never achieved the high standards. That is the reason for this thread, I find it ridiculous to be intimidated by people who are better than yourselves, my response through my whole life was to be very interested in those greater than me "stand on the shoulders of giants" as they say. The political correctness of walking on eggshells when confronted by people lesser than yourself is silly in my opinion, especially when it comes to the music world. But each to their own.

[birba]

Who, may I ask is talking about "intimidation" or "walking on egg-shells"?!?!?  I'm talking about rising above the situation and perhaps playing it in your favor!!  Not feeling you have to prove yourself to a piano salesman.
Geesh....I think you may have some deeper problem...

[lostinidlewonder]

It was you who both who instigated this ridiculous assumption that I wanted to show off to a salesman ( I wanted to test out the pianos properly and also play the proper version of a piece which is annoying if you hear a simplified one all the time), I merely played what is normal for me which to him probably looked much more than what he could achieve. The fact that he was showing off to begin with his playing then I played for merely 5 minutes which sent him running off to his office is the point which is interesting. In fact I used it as an example of how people react when observing someone better than themselves which to me is very instructive and has nothing to do with what you are on about. And you don't know me so don't try to guess what "deeper problems" I have it just makes you look stupid. Bibra you look stupid since I said I was not showing off to gain approval or anything of that sort, I played what is normal for me but very advanced for him, yet if you persist that I merely want to squash and crush people, good on ya. You are missing the point of the thread it is ok, the psychology of the situation interests me not the guess work of strangers as yourself who merely think I am trying to do anything sinister or of bad taste.

When you are in a piano sales room and you are a buyer, the salesman should have ZERO problems with me playing the piano, no matter what I play. If you think that there is a problem on my behalf on this issue then I thank god you are not running a piano retail business.

[gaest]

Your point that the salesman should not have a problem with it is true.  As a salesman trying to sell a product, he should have been more professional and swallowed his pride.  

As for everything else you wrote: I never said you were deliberately doing anything "sinister" or of bad taste, or that you even consciously wanted to show off.  I just think that it may have been a misstep born from the circumstances of the moment, and that it comes across as showing off.  

What I find interesting about this situation is that you declare you're basically completely detached from it emotionally, but your selection of piece that day is suspect.  If you truly didn't care about the salesman, you could have (and probably would have) played whatever repetoire you were currently working on to test out the pianos.  Instead, you chose what he played, out of annoyance and a desire to play it "right," maybe even because you just wanted the guy to leave you alone and wanted to prove your skill was greater than his so that he would.  That is just what I get from an objective look at what you've told us and the way you've told it to us.

But I'm not nearly interested enough in what happened to want to rile everyone here up.  I just wanted to point out that no one's truly exempt from egoism, particularly when it comes to a highly comparable performance art like playing the piano.  And everyone reacts to it differently, based on what has happened to them in their past.  It's difficult to assume how someone else will respond to greater skill when it's displayed.  In an ideal world, maybe everyone would be thrilled to have it shown to them that there's a level of skill out there greater than theirs.  But at the same time, is that a good thing?  Maybe it's the negative feelings you get from seeing a higher level of skill showing you up that leads some people to drive to achieve greater skill in the first place.  The trick is to manage those negative feelings to get them to push you towards your goals instead of letting them overwhelm you.

[birba]

It was you who both who instigated this ridiculous assumption that I wanted to show off to a salesman ( I wanted to test out the pianos properly and also play the proper version of a piece which is annoying if you hear a simplified one all the time), I merely played what is normal for me which to him probably looked much more than what he could achieve. The fact that he was showing off to begin with his playing then I played for merely 5 minutes which sent him running off to his office is the point which is interesting. In fact I used it as an example of how people react when observing someone better than themselves which to me is very instructive and has nothing to do with what you are on about. And you don't know me so don't try to guess what "deeper problems" I have it just makes you look stupid. Bibra you look stupid since I said I was not showing off to gain approval or anything of that sort, I played what is normal for me but very advanced for him, yet if you persist that I merely want to squash and crush people, good on ya. You are missing the point of the thread it is ok, the psychology of the situation interests me not the guess work of strangers as yourself who merely think I am trying to do anything sinister or of bad taste.

When you are in a piano sales room and you are a buyer, the salesman should have ZERO problems with me playing the piano, no matter what I play. If you think that there is a problem on my behalf on this issue then I thank god you are not running a piano retail business.

Whatever.

[lostinidlewonder]

What I find interesting about this situation is that you declare you're basically completely detached from it emotionally, but your selection of piece that day is suspect.  If you truly didn't care about the salesman, you could have (and probably would have) played whatever repetoire you were currently working on to test out the pianos.  Instead, you chose what he played, out of annoyance and a desire to play it "right," maybe even because you just wanted the guy to leave you alone and wanted to prove your skill was greater than his so that he would.  That is just what I get from an objective look at what you've told us and the way you've told it to us.

I see how you can see it in that way, but I see it in a different light and many other people, many of my students in fact, appreciate listening to a proper rendition of a piece. My students have learned simplified versions of many favorites but when they hear the original they are encouraged more so not attributing a negative emotion to the display. If you read the rest of my posts you will realize that nothing I do is out of showing off as such since I take great care in how my students react to it.

It's difficult to assume how someone else will respond to greater skill when it's displayed.  In an ideal world, maybe everyone would be thrilled to have it shown to them that there's a level of skill out there greater than theirs.  But at the same time, is that a good thing?  Maybe it's the negative feelings you get from seeing a higher level of skill showing you up that leads some people to drive to achieve greater skill in the first place.  The trick is to manage those negative feelings to get them to push you towards your goals instead of letting them overwhelm you.

It is difficult to make an inference on someones reaction and this is what interests me a great deal. However how to deal with the reactions afterwards is what I am more interested in, I do not want to control how people react but I can deal with my reaction to their reaction and the discussion that comes forth from this. This is an interesting aspect of teaching I have found and many of us teachers know that teaching piano is not only how we go about creating sound from our instrument.

[keypeg]

There are two ways of listening to someone play a piece impressively, and I don't know at what stage I shifted to the second one.  Usually we only read about the first - the idea that we get "inspired" because it's impressive and we would want to play like that one day.  This is the first time that I have seen another reaction being verbalized: that as a student we may become seriously discouraged as we see how far below the teacher's playing our own is. 

The second way - the shift that occurred for me - happens when you realize that there are ways of doing things.   Good playing is not some kind of magic, and it does not flow from a teacher by osmosis to the student.  It is not one seamless blob of something.  Yes, inspiration, talent and the inner muse exist.  But good playing is also crafted through specific things that we can learn.  What is he doing with timing?  How is he producing that sound? How did he approach phrasing?  The mundane things we learn in lessons and practice - even tempo, controlled sound, articulation - are the painter's pallet that the professional musician uses.  And we're in the middle of getting that pallet.

I think what I'm trying to say is that if we listen to how that teacher is making that magic happen, and know that we are getting the means to create our own music once we have that same set of tools, then it is a different kind of listening.  This idea of inspiration - emulation has always made me feel uneasy.  But if it leads to "How did you do that?"  "What do I need to learn to reach this?" could that be a different experience.  The million dollar question is whether a student would listen that way.  I had to know a little bit before I started to do so.

[birba]

I don't get it.  Never EVER was I envious of my teacher's talents.  To me they were always the TOPS, and I and my fellow students would always RAVE about our teacher and how impossible it was to achieve his/her talents, blah blah blah.  PURE adulation.  Of course he/she was better than us.  Why were we studying with them?!  We LEARNED from their playing. 
I have to confess, I never knew this problem existed.   

[keypeg]

Birba, is that in response to what I wrote, or just a general comment?

[lostinidlewonder]

....Usually we only read about the first - the idea that we get "inspired" because it's impressive and we would want to play like that one day.  This is the first time that I have seen another reaction being verbalized: that as a student we may become seriously discouraged as we see how far below the teacher's playing our own is.  

I never thought that good playing could discourage someone but I did see it happen during my childhood as well as well as presently. As a child you don't see it as seriously as you see it when you are an adult, I can still remember at a school camp playing on a piano in the hall and impressing my fellow students who never knew I played. Then some girls who where playing on the piano before started to hog the piano and would not let me play at all after every free time break. Now that I think back on it it was because probably they didn't want my playing to overshadow what they could only achieve.

I can even recount instances in competitions where competitors would ignore me, not talk to me etc, the competitive feelings are so damaging for those who do not win. I won a lot of the times so when I didn't win I didn't mind, but there where those who never won, never where recognized and where pretty much destroyed on stage. This does not effect all people like this but when I look back in the days where I did competitions so many young minds where damaged by the stentch of competitiveness.

Now through teaching I do notice some people not reacting positively to playing much higher class than their own. It is not a great % of people but certainly I have come across enough to provoke me to think about it. Learning how to deal with the psychology behind reactions has been an interesting area of piano teaching for me at least!

The second way - the shift that occurred for me - happens when you realize that there are ways of doing things.   Good playing is not some kind of magic, and it does not flow from a teacher by osmosis to the student.  It is not one seamless blob of something.  Yes, inspiration, talent and the inner muse exist.  But good playing is also crafted through specific things that we can learn.  What is he doing with timing?  How is he producing that sound? How did he approach phrasing?  The mundane things we learn in lessons and practice - even tempo, controlled sound, articulation - are the painter's pallet that the professional musician uses.  And we're in the middle of getting that pallet.

I think what I'm trying to say is that if we listen to how that teacher is making that magic happen, and know that we are getting the means to create our own music once we have that same set of tools, then it is a different kind of listening.  This idea of inspiration - emulation has always made me feel uneasy.  But if it leads to "How did you do that?"  "What do I need to learn to reach this?" could that be a different experience.  The million dollar question is whether a student would listen that way.  I had to know a little bit before I started to do so.

I like your 2nd way of viewing the issue, it is a very constructive and understanding approach. You no longer merely stand aback amazed at what you see but you be encouraged to learn how to do it yourself. You then understand the amount of time and work goes behind focused practice. But it is an easier path to remain in the 1st view you mentioned. Just be amazed and impressed and hope that you can just improve in your own little way. Most of us simply do not have the time to devote to play piano at the highest standards but who is to say you cannot do high standard stuff in particular areas?

[birba]

Birba, is that in response to what I wrote, or just a general comment?

No, I was just thinking out loud about this thread.  I had no idea there were students who would be intimidated by their teachers "bravura".  I always idealized my teachers and wanted to play like them.  I had some lessons with Phillipe Lorenz (?)  I think that's his name, the one who collaborated with Arrau in his editions of the Beethoven sonatas - a wonderful pianist who could play circles around me at the time - and I enjoyed it when he would demonstrate for me, which wasn't very often now that I think about it.
Maybe it's the title of this thread that sort of bothers me.  I suppose if it IS "showing off", it might have a negative impact on some students.  But in the end, if the student is pre-disposed at being disappointed on hearing someone better then him, the problem is his and I don't think you should tread on egg-shells to avoid it.  That's life.  When I was making the rounds of the competitions, there were always pianists who played better than me and pianists who played worse.

[keypeg]

I like your 2nd way of viewing the issue, it is a very constructive and understanding approach. You no longer merely stand aback amazed at what you see but you be encouraged to learn how to do it yourself. You then understand the amount of time and work goes behind focused practice. But it is an easier path to remain in the 1st view you mentioned. Just be amazed and impressed and hope that you can just improve in your own little way. Most of us simply do not have the time to devote to play piano at the highest standards but who is to say you cannot do high standard stuff in particular areas?

Hm, I'm thinking back.  I began late in adulthood.  In the first years when my teacher played I felt things.  I also chased feelings in my playing and responded to feelings in playing that I heard.  Amazement or wanting to play impressively wasn't there.    When I came in as a student I had spent a lifetime trying to express things in music via whatever instrument.  For written music it was trying to discover what the composer was trying to say.  "Performance" as in athletic prowess, as it is often done, had not occurred to me.  The other thing was pure curiosity: "What can this instrument do?  What can I do with it?" - almost like a toy.

Later on I learned that there are also mechanical means of expressing feeling, which gives us control.  A well timed space between notes, a crescendo, an accent.  That is when my attention shifted into the "how".

[solstyce]

Wow, you guys really got your work cut out for you. As a student, I loved it when my teacher played the pieces that I would be learning, but thats because even though I read music, it is very hard for me to learn a song without hearing it. And when I played, my teacher almost always played with me. She usually played the melody an octave higher. I miss getting lessons.

[tenderland]

 I believe that the teacher should not play or play only to instruct when difficulties arise. I have a book by Josef Hofmann which tells about his instruction by Rubenstein. Hofmann tells how Rubenstein would never play for him,ever.

[keyofc]

Seriously - should anyone know more about sensitivity than musicians and other artists?

Let's put it in another scenario.  Imagine that you know nothing about drawing, but love to look at them.  You decide to take a class.

You begin to feel somewhat satisfied at your progress on your 3rd lesson.

Your teacher - comes over to you and draws a masterpiece of a design.
You look at yours.
How would you feel?

On the other hand -
it could be that on the 3rd day - you feel somewhat happy with your progress but for some reason you just can't seem to get one part of it down right.  Your teacher comes alongside of you and begins to show you point by point how to draw the inside of a leaf. 

How would you feel?

[birba]

In either situation I would feel very secure in learning from a top artist.

[keyofc]

I really think it is just the way it is done - as many people have already said.

I remember once, as a child, being so frustrated with my teacher's instructions.  I just 'didn't get the new rythm concepts she was introducing - and the dynamics, etc..
Finally I asked her "Can you show me how to do it?"
And she smiled - and played it. 
That was a good experiencefor both of us -She wasn't showing off - I realized 'This lady really does know what she is talking about!"
"I hope I can play like her one day" - and after all these years - I finally can!

I have had other teachers that spent over half my lesson time playing the piano.
That was a total turnoff - and I did not get anything out of it.  Every time I asked a question they would  play the piano like the proverbial computer guru shows you something on the computer.
Fast enough to wow me - too fast to help me.

[keypeg]

Seriously - should anyone know more about sensitivity than musicians and other artists?

Let's put it in another scenario.  Imagine that you know nothing about drawing, but love to look at them.  You decide to take a class.

You begin to feel somewhat satisfied at your progress on your 3rd lesson.

Your teacher - comes over to you and draws a masterpiece of a design.
You look at yours.
How would you feel?

On the other hand -
it could be that on the 3rd day - you feel somewhat happy with your progress but for some reason you just can't seem to get one part of it down right.  Your teacher comes alongside of you and begins to show you point by point how to draw the inside of a leaf. 

How would you feel?

Excellent analogy.   The first would leave me feeling bad and probably resentful unless there was a point.  The second is empowering.