How to play without getting tired in the fingers?

[mcdiddy1]

I have played this piece a great number of times and there are several things you can do.

First everytime the Rh has a phrase you will notice there is an eight rest . Use this brief moment  to relax your hand. Chopin was known for his use of rubato so the piece does not have to me metronomic. You can allow yourself slight inflections of your tempo. Often if you continue at a blazing fast speed without allowing points of relaxation your muscles will build up tension. Plan when you will start soft and rubato and use them as relaxtion points.

Second- no part of your body should be in pain. You should not play through pain. I learned this the hard way. If a part of your hand is hurting that is the part that is working too hard. You want to let other parts of your arm do some of the work. Your wrist should be coming up and down to help phrase the melody and your arm can be used to play the first note of each phrase.

Three- instead of focusing on speed- focus on eveness. Speed is an elusion. Achieve evenness and it will sound faster than what your are actually playing.

Four- listen to  recordings of great recordings of this piece and you will hear many of them playing with rubato and not playing the piece exactly as it is written on the page. You should focus on achieving the musicality of what they are doing rather than the speed. When you have the musicality loaded in their focusing on rubato, expression, dynamics , phrasing, rather than speed the music will be more enjoyable to play, listen to, and actually easier.

[carbe]

I have played this piece a great number of times and there are several things you can do.

First everytime the Rh has a phrase you will notice there is an eight rest . Use this brief moment  to relax your hand. Chopin was known for his use of rubato so the piece does not have to me metronomic. You can allow yourself slight inflections of your tempo. Often if you continue at a blazing fast speed without allowing points of relaxation your muscles will build up tension. Plan when you will start soft and rubato and use them as relaxtion points.

Second- no part of your body should be in pain. You should not play through pain. I learned this the hard way. If a part of your hand is hurting that is the part that is working too hard. You want to let other parts of your arm do some of the work. Your wrist should be coming up and down to help phrase the melody and your arm can be used to play the first note of each phrase.

Three- instead of focusing on speed- focus on eveness. Speed is an elusion. Achieve evenness and it will sound faster than what your are actually playing.

Four- listen to  recordings of great recordings of this piece and you will hear many of them playing with rubato and not playing the piece exactly as it is written on the page. You should focus on achieving the musicality of what they are doing rather than the speed. When you have the musicality loaded in their focusing on rubato, expression, dynamics , phrasing, rather than speed the music will be more enjoyable to play, listen to, and actually easier.

Thanks for this post!
I think this is gonna help me much.
Well, I worked with my technique since I started this thread. I'm already much better to work with my wrists. I know it, because I feel how my wrist help my fingers to play the notes, and I become much less tired now than before.
And now I'm also doing exacly like you say! I take some pauses in the tempo sometimes, and it makes me relax a bit. Yes, I've heard that other pianoplayers do so sometimes and I think it sounds nice to!

What I didn't know at now, was that I can use my hand to play the first note. That was interesting. I'll try that tomorrow. How shall I think to use my hand?

I may post a new video soon, if anyone can see the different between my technique before and now?

Thanks for your reply!

Carbe

[nick]

I know this is contrary to what most think or do, but I use mostly fingers to play fast passages. I also raise my fingers. The key does not need to go to the bottom, and in my opinion hinders speed. Watch at what point the key descent makes a sound. Not very far down.
I also practice as fast as possible with clarity and correct notes, and the speed does increase over time from getting used to it, and yes it is a little tiring at times, but the end result is it gets faster. Just my opinion and maybe something to consider.

Nick

[viking]

I know this is contrary to what most think or do, but I use mostly fingers to play fast passages. I also raise my fingers. The key does not need to go to the bottom, and in my opinion hinders speed. Watch at what point the key descent makes a sound. Not very far down.
I also practice as fast as possible with clarity and correct notes, and the speed does increase over time from getting used to it, and yes it is a little tiring at times, but the end result is it gets faster. Just my opinion and maybe something to consider.

Nick

There is no finger without the arm.
Sure, you don't use your arm on every note, but the arm must follow creating a transfer of weight. 
What if you had a running passage that ascended and then descended without any break in between?  Musically one would think about phrasing this, much like the forces of gravity would.  This type of centrifugal force is impossible with fingers alone (Fleisher).

[nick]

There is no finger without the arm.
Sure, you don't use your arm on every note, but the arm must follow creating a transfer of weight. 
What if you had a running passage that ascended and then descended without any break in between?  Musically one would think about phrasing this, much like the forces of gravity would.  This type of centrifugal force is impossible with fingers alone (Fleisher).

and no arm without the torso and no....
Told you it was contrary to general thought.

nick

[viking]

and no arm without the torso and no....
Told you it was contrary to general thought.

nick

Actually, over the hundreds of years, it seems the general thoughts are dealing with fingers, tendons, etc...
Only very recently, with the exception of Chopin and Liszt, have people started treating the piano like a piano rather than a harpsichord..

[keyboardclass]

I feel it in my belly.  Had a sig line once - Sing from your belly!  Play from your belly!

[nick]

Actually, over the hundreds of years, it seems the general thoughts are dealing with fingers, tendons, etc...
Only very recently, with the exception of Chopin and Liszt, have people started treating the piano like a piano rather than a harpsichord..

current general thought. As I said, most are contrary to my thinking on this, this forum as well as elsewhere.

nick

[jinfiesto]

Hmm. I generally don't think telling someone to relax is particularly helpful, despite the fact that it's probably true. If you're having pain issues, your technique is bad. That rule is 100% transitive. Given that the piece your playing involves some extended hand positions, I would guess that while you're probably carrying tension in your wrists, the finger pain is indicative of carrying extra tension around in the form of a hyperextended pinky, thumb or both. When playing in a constantly extended hand position, it's easy to allow these digits to stay hyper extended. Pay attention to this, and you can probably fix your problem.

[omar_roy]

I know this is contrary to what most think or do, but I use mostly fingers to play fast passages. I also raise my fingers. The key does not need to go to the bottom, and in my opinion hinders speed. Watch at what point the key descent makes a sound. Not very far down.
I also practice as fast as possible with clarity and correct notes, and the speed does increase over time from getting used to it, and yes it is a little tiring at times, but the end result is it gets faster. Just my opinion and maybe something to consider.

Nick

If you're playing fast and you're not hitting the bottom of the key bed, then you're not producing very much sound or a good tone.  You're basically cutting corners due to an insufficient technique.

One can play fast pianissimo passages and still hit the bottom of the keys.

It just happens to be one of the hardest things to accomplish.

[nick]

If you're playing fast and you're not hitting the bottom of the key bed, then you're not producing very much sound or a good tone.  You're basically cutting corners due to an insufficient technique.

I'm happy with my tone thank you. Saves time not going to the bottom at times.

nick

[keyboardclass]

I agree, you don't need to get to bed at all times -  leggiero being a good case in point.


 

[omar_roy]

I'm happy with my tone thank you. Saves time not going to the bottom at times.

nick

You may be happy with your tone, but if the audience can't hear you, then whether you're happy with it or not doesn't really matter, does it?

Like I said, cutting corners.

As for leggiero, you can still get to the bottom of the keybed and play in a leggiero manner.  It's all in the speed and weight of attack.

[keyboardclass]

As for leggiero, you can still get to the bottom of the keybed and play in a leggiero manner.  It's all in the speed and weight of attack.

Don't forget your fingers have to go down and back up if you try for the keybed.  There just isn't the time.  Hummel said you couldn't do on English pianos (as you could on Vienese) back in the late 18th century!

[omar_roy]

Don't forget your fingers have to go down and back up

And this is where the majority of most pianists have a fundamental deficiency in their technique.  The muscles on the flexor compartment of the hand and forearm are much more well developed than those in the extensor compartment of the forearm (there are no muscles on the back of the hand).  Because of this, most people can press keys down faster and in more rapid succession than they can release them.

Drilling the fast release into your technique from a young age by playing your scales and lifting your fingers as high and as fast as you can addresses this issue of the proper release.

The release of the key is just as important as the pressing of it, and as I said before it can all be done, you just need to put in the time and effort.  For some people, who aren't performers, it may not be a priority.  I have to worry about the people at the very back of the hall hearing a very delicate ppp, so it IS a priority to me.  And the only way to get a sound full enough to make a ppp carry that far is to strike all the way to the bottom of the keybed to ensure a clean, smooth, and full strike of the hammer on the string.

[keyboardclass]

And the only way to get a sound full enough to make a ppp carry that far is to strike all the way to the bottom of the keybed to ensure a clean, smooth, and full strike of the hammer on the string.

You're quite right the extensors are weak indeed but I don't think much can be done about that that isn't dangerous (like raising fingers high).  As far as comparing keybed ppp to non-keybed ppp - I don't think there's anything to answer.

[nick]

You may be happy with your tone, but if the audience can't hear you, then whether you're happy with it or not doesn't really matter, does it?

I work on pieces for myself, and if I can play it exactly as I like it for myself, I am happy. Others may or may not enjoy it if I play for them. No Carnegie Hall for me so not too concerned about how far my sound will travel.

nick

[omar_roy]

I work on pieces for myself, and if I can play it exactly as I like it for myself, I am happy. Others may or may not enjoy it if I play for them. No Carnegie Hall for me so not too concerned about how far my sound will travel.

nick

That's well and good, but this is the performance forum.  When you go to make a post, there's a nice little note at the top that says the following:

Please note: This board is primarily intended for professional pianists and piano teachers as well as piano students and amateures at an advanced level. If you are not part of this group, consider posting in the Student's Corner instead.

This isn't the "I play for myself and never perform" board.  If you can play things the way you like and be satisfied, that's great!  That's what music is about, in the end.  But on this board, we're concerned with sharing music with an audience, and what you're suggesting is counter-productive to that goal.

[nick]

That's well and good, but this is the performance forum.  When you go to make a post, there's a nice little note at the top that says the following:

Please note: This board is primarily intended for professional pianists and piano teachers as well as piano students and amateures at an advanced level. If you are not part of this group, consider posting in the Student's Corner instead.

I am part of the above group.

This isn't the "I play for myself and never perform" board.  If you can play things the way you like and be satisfied, that's great!  That's what music is about, in the end.  But on this board, we're concerned with sharing music with an audience, and what you're suggesting is counter-productive to that goal.

Show me please where I said " I never perform".
My comments, opinions, are counter productive to exactly what?

nick

[carbe]

I've worked with my technique since I wrote this thread and I'm really grateful for all your tips. It feels much better now and I can play the song in full tempo without tired fingers. It feels very good, and I think I work with my wrist much more now.

[music32]

I don't think finger strengthening is the direction to take. I personally believe in activating the fingers with bigger energies beyond them.. Think about supple wrists, and energy coming down your arms. Think about phrasing in groups..Don't squeeze notes, or adhere to a rigid arched hand position. Flexibility.... relaxation, going with the flow are some of the ways to move artfully through this composition. It's a bit hard to verbalize, so I'll stop there.

Shirley K
https://arioso7.wordpress.com

[keyboardclass]

I don't think finger strengthening is the direction to take. I personally believe in activating the fingers with bigger energies beyond them.. Think about supple wrists, and energy coming down your arms. Think about phrasing in groups..Don't squeeze notes, or adhere to a rigid arched hand position. Flexibility.... relaxation, going with the flow are some of the ways to move artfully through this composition. It's a bit hard to verbalize, so I'll stop there.

Good advice for much Chopin and after playing but you need both.   The fingers always have the greater role (supported by pronation/supination of course).  I hardly ever use anything else in Bach and Mozart - it sounds flabby otherwise.

[gyzzzmo]

Its a combination of a couple of things. The pinky and 4th finger probably do need strengthening, because they are naturally undevelopped (compared to other fingers) and can get over-used quickly.
But for the rest it is creating more stamina by playing alot, and good technique so you wont force anything and play efficiently.

Gyzzzmo

[music32]

I am a believer in not relying on finger strength to play technically challenging war horses like the Fantasie Impromptu. Rather I think of larger groupings of notes, activated by wrist, arm energies.. free flowing arms. The fingers can hardly be expected ALONE to assume the task of playing eons of 16ths at break speed tempo. They get tired. Schumann sadly destroyed his fingers by putting gadgets on them, to think he would strengthen them. It's hard for me to communicate in words what I put into practice in my teaching. But students who have learned to enlist energies beyond the fingers, realize that what they were doing before was not getting them very far.. and besides they petered out after a few measures, and couldn't sustain the passage work.

I have some technical videos sprinkled among my blogs.
at https://arioso7.wordpress.com

Certainly in the scale and arpeggio videos, the momentum of wrists and arms is clearly visualized.