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Chopin 24 preludes - should they be performed in Unequal Temperament? (Read 18351 times)

Offline ronde_des_sylphes

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Re: Chopin 24 preludes - should they be performed in Unequal Temperament?
«Reply #100 on: February 03, 2019, 05:32:59 PM »
Thanks. I have to say I much prefer the tuning in the Chopin; the minor seconds really started to grate after a while in the Tempest.

Offline lostinidlewonder

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Re: Chopin 24 preludes - should they be performed in Unequal Temperament? Nope.
«Reply #101 on: February 03, 2019, 05:38:02 PM »
Oh yes. It clangs and sounds ugly. Clearly
Good to see you see the light lol!

The comments on the videos on YouTube are of significant variance with yours.
ha, youtube comments  ::)
Unfortunately on the internet you can surround yourself with people who agree with you. Please don't feel upset that I disagree that it is any improvement. You are not going to convince everyone, if you feel your truth has to be ubiquitous you are just being delusional.

I'm organising a seminar on temperament on 6th May 2019 in England and were you to come you'd meet a number of musicians and technicians of variance to your opinion. Perhaps you might find it interesting to meet them.
Even if I lived near you I wouldn't bother. Please surround yourself with people who are interestd in the same things as yourself, please realize that the whole world is not representative of the few people you surround yourself with.


One of the most interesting things is the extent to which a harmonic tuning can improve the sound of the instrument as well as making sense of original pedalling of Chopin and Beethoven.
I disagree that it reveals anything that we are missing from current normal piano tuning. If you think it reveals a lot of amazing details then good for you, that is your stance, as a professional musician I am at odds with you, don't feel upset. You are just making yourself look silly debating me.

Spewing forth links of videos doesn't really do you much service or support your points either. Are you trying to increase your view counts? lol. Where is this EVIDENCE that I asked you for? Oh you can't respond to it? lol
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Offline lostinidlewonder

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Re: Chopin 24 preludes - should they be performed in Unequal Temperament? Nope.
«Reply #102 on: February 03, 2019, 05:50:35 PM »
Evidence please. Or otherwise your post becomes otherwise a reflection only of your own performance.

My response:
Why dont you provide evidence that my post is a reflection of my own performance? Why would I want to perform on an unequal temperament piano when I think it sounds ugly? Your logic is killing kittens.

Oh yes. It clangs and sounds ugly. Clearly

Are you going to show me evidence or just talk past me? I'll just accept your inability to respond since you got a little angry with your response :P

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Offline georgey

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Re: Chopin 24 preludes - should they be performed in Unequal Temperament?
«Reply #103 on: February 03, 2019, 07:02:07 PM »
Thanks. I have to say I much prefer the tuning in the Chopin; the minor seconds really started to grate after a while in the Tempest.

I agree.  The harsh minor seconds made my teeth hurt. A sensitive piano tuner would have realized this and picked a different non-ET tuning.  Of course, ET would prevent these types of mishaps.

Just testing the DT method that some appear to like to use here:  Repeat it often enough, and you will convince ALL.  ;)

Offline latrobe

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Re: Chopin 24 preludes - should they be performed in Unequal Temperament?
«Reply #104 on: February 03, 2019, 10:00:31 PM »
I agree.  The harsh minor seconds made my teeth hurt. A sensitive piano tuner would have realized this and picked a different non-ET tuning.  Of course, ET would prevent these types of mishaps.
There are three tunings used for the Tempest experiments. And experiments are what these recordings are. Are you talking about the Meantone on the 1802 Stodart, the Kirnberger on the 1819 and 1859 instruments or the Kellner on the 1905 baby grand in the outside recital?

Overall it's Kellner that can produce beautiful sounds. The Kirnberger can notice too much but as a modified Werkmeister has to be a candidate temperament to experiment with.

Here's an example demonstrating Kellner to be a perfectly valid alternative to equal temperament
https://jungleboffin.com/mp4/joanna-powell-cello/cesar-frank.mp3
The sound at 8:23 is particularly glorious.
https://jungleboffin.com/mp4/joanna-powell-cello/frank-bridge-elegy.mp3
https://jungleboffin.com/mp4/joanna-powell-cello/faure-apres-un-reve.mp3
The opening of https://jungleboffin.com/mp4/joanna-powell-cello/bruch-kol-nidre.mp3 is interesting.

And from this collection of recordings, on the 1854 Emerich Betsy before restringing
https://jungleboffin.com/mp4/jill-crossland-unequal-tempered-fortepiano/well-tempered-bach.mp3

Best wishes,

David P
David Pinnegar BSc ARCS
Promoting keyboard heritage http://www.organmatters.co.uk and performers in Unequal Temperament http://www.hammerwood.mistral.co.uk/concerts.htm

Offline klavieronin

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Re: Chopin 24 preludes - should they be performed in Unequal Temperament?
«Reply #105 on: February 03, 2019, 10:37:30 PM »
latrobe, I was going to stay out of this discussion from now on but I've been thinking about it and I have a couple of serious questions I'd like to ask;

1. It seems to me there needs to be a standard tuning otherwise it would be a nightmare for musicians to collaborate and perform together so are you hoping to make some sort of UT the new standard tuning? If so, exactly which tuning are you promoting and what makes that tuning preferable to it's alternatives?

2. Imagine I am a composer. You come to my house to tune my piano and convince me to go with UT. You tune my piano, I pay you, you leave. Now I sit down to write a fugue. The exposition sounds great and I am happy with the colour of the subject and counter-subject. Then I get to the development section and decide I need to modulate to a remote key, however, I also want to subject and counter-subject to keep thier characteristics from the exposition. Given that in UT each key has different characteristics, what am I supposed to do in that situation?

Offline georgey

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Re: Chopin 24 preludes - should they be performed in Unequal Temperament?
«Reply #106 on: February 03, 2019, 10:40:10 PM »
There are three tunings used for the Tempest experiments. And experiments are what these recordings are. Are you talking about the Meantone on the 1802 Stodart, the Kirnberger on the 1819 and 1859 instruments or the Kellner on the 1905 baby grand in the outside recital?

I'm referring to the 1802 Beethoven Tempest that was in Meantone where you say: “But this performance connects the Beethoven sonata very directly to the mysterious and supernatural of the Shakespeare play from which it was derived.”

The Tempest by Shakespeare is set on a remote island.  Imagine not having a dentist on this remote island, like in the Tom Hanks movie castaway, where he ends up yanking out his diseased tooth by hand.  This is how I feel listening to this.  But is this a good feeling?

Offline georgey

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Re: Chopin 24 preludes - should they be performed in Unequal Temperament?
«Reply #107 on: February 03, 2019, 10:44:48 PM »
latrobe, I was going to stay out of this discussion from now on but I've been thinking about it and I have a couple of serious questions I'd like to ask;

1. It seems to me there needs to be a standard tuning otherwise it would be a nightmare for musicians to collaborate and perform together so are you hoping to make some sort of UT the new standard tuning? If so, exactly which tuning are you promoting and what makes that tuning preferable to it's alternatives?

2. Imagine I am a composer. You come to my house to tune my piano and convince me to go with UT. You tune my piano, I pay you, you leave. Now I sit down to write a fugue. The exposition sounds great and I am happy with the colour of the subject and counter-subject. Then I get to the development section and decide I need to modulate to a remote key, however, I also want to subject and counter-subject to keep thier characteristics from the exposition. Given that in UT each key has different characteristics, what am I supposed to do in that situation?

#2 - great question.  Latrobe mentions certain notes that you do not hear any beats when played together with his selected non-ET tuning.  I made the comment that maybe he was beat hypersensitive.  Say you take the same notes that he mentions but kick them up a semi-tone.  How do the beats sound now?

Maybe Latrobe says:  "If the piece sounds bad with my tuning, it's not my tuning.  It is the composer.  How dare he modulate to such a distant key?"

Offline latrobe

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Re: Chopin 24 preludes - should they be performed in Unequal Temperament?
«Reply #108 on: February 03, 2019, 11:32:14 PM »
Aah - the 1802 Meantone - I sympathise. But it seems meant to be, and the success of that recording depended on the sensitivity of my friend recording it. One must think of those notes not as out of tune but weird, as weird as the supernatural of the play. Using Google translate on https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_tempesta illuminates the spirit of this rather interestingly. Toothache on an island - I sympathise. And many other of Beethoven's sonatas just don't work at all on the 1/4 comma meantone tuning at all, but in this case the tuning seems to be as an x-ray or an ultraviolet lamp to an oil painting.

A standard tuning . . . I've been using Kellner and only recently been venturing beyond. Beyond takes one into realms of . . . potential toothache, as you might say. But it's important and interesting to do the experiments. It's perhaps no coincidence that www.pianoteq.com software chooses the Kellner Bach tuning as Well Temperament and in my experience it's capable of serving as universal.

I'm likely to be travelling in the next month to a major Conservatoire to demonstrate tuning and to tune for an international piano competition. And for that, if I'm doing the tuning it will be Kellner on the menu.

Other possibilities can be Vallotti/Young although to my ears it's not flavoursome enough, and Serkin 1/7th Comma Meantone. A professor in the States has entrusted me with another temperament to experiment with but without an aural tuning procedure available it's difficult for me to get to grips with at the moment.

Beats

tries to explain.

The key starts now to be a tool which you can explore and exploit as a composer.

Pianoteq www.pianoteq.com gives a usefully working sample version so if you've got a touch sensitive MIDI keyboard you can start to explore for yourself.

The fun thing about Kellner is that it's strong enough to hear whilst being subliminal enough not to be foul when you modulate unintentionally for the purpose of emotion.

Some Berg proves the point
https://jungleboffin.com/mp4/jong-gyung-park-unequal-temperament/berg.mp3
Prokofiev too https://jungleboffin.com/mp4/jong-gyung-park-unequal-temperament/prokofiev.mp3



In my opinion Kellner is on the edge - able to express colour emotionally whilst not tipping us over the edge nor having to be careful of it whilst stronger temperaments do have an edge which can give us . . . toothache at best.

Best wishes

David P
David Pinnegar BSc ARCS
Promoting keyboard heritage http://www.organmatters.co.uk and performers in Unequal Temperament http://www.hammerwood.mistral.co.uk/concerts.htm

Offline georgey

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Re: Chopin 24 preludes - should they be performed in Unequal Temperament?
«Reply #109 on: February 03, 2019, 11:51:30 PM »
Latrobe,
Thank you for the thoughtful answers.  I think that as a salesman, you are entitled to a certain amount of puffery.  It goes with being a salesman.  But you should also be aware that there may be some sensitive music lovers who do genuinely prefer ET, and not due to being uneducated or insensitive

I am 60 years old.  I have confidence that I will continue to be able to hear CDs and performances using my preferred ET tuning for the rest of my life.  As I mentioned before, I did enjoy hearing some of your earlier posts.  For example, the Brahms violin sonata in A major.  This is a GEM as is all of Brahms 24 chamber music compositions (using Brahms great complete revision of op 8 piano trio).

I believe that at a minimum, non-ET needs to live on if only for the purpose of preserving history.  I wish you the best luck in your mission. 

Offline klavieronin

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Re: Chopin 24 preludes - should they be performed in Unequal Temperament?
«Reply #110 on: February 03, 2019, 11:54:16 PM »
The key starts now to be a tool which you can explore and exploit as a composer.

Yes but let's say, hypothetically, as a composer I don't share your ideological stance on composition and I want my fugue subject to stay consistent throughout the piece no matter what key I'm in. What am I supposed to do in that case?

Offline latrobe

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Re: Chopin 24 preludes - should they be performed in Unequal Temperament?
«Reply #111 on: February 04, 2019, 01:05:10 AM »
The chances are that you won't hear it :-) if it doesn't contribute positively to what you're writing. In a fugue you're unlikely to be hanging around long enough for difference in beats to be noticeable and counted. That's why I'd be confident in tuning for you without being called back two days later. It's also the point of my drawing attention to the Berg and Prokofiev and Debussy recordings.

For something still effective but more subtle that's the particular beauty of the Serkin temperament.

georgey - thank you for your particular kindnesses. However, I'm not a salesman. For me also that Brahms is a gem.  The violinist was playing on gut strings. This was a beast concert to tune for - I had just a bare 2 hours to get the instrument down from 440 to 432 and to be stable. If you've enjoyed it, then the following are the same concert.


Here's a nasty key - Db major. By conventional wisdom should be unlistenable



F minor - darkest grief




Of course Equal Temperament is the only way to do everything.

Best wishes

David P
David Pinnegar BSc ARCS
Promoting keyboard heritage http://www.organmatters.co.uk and performers in Unequal Temperament http://www.hammerwood.mistral.co.uk/concerts.htm

Offline lostinidlewonder

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Re: Chopin 24 preludes - should they be performed in Unequal Temperament? NOPE
«Reply #112 on: February 04, 2019, 04:31:10 AM »
Here is a well thought out and clearly written article in defense of ET. It makes some excellent points IMO;

https://my.ptg.org/blogs/larry-lobel/2011/08/24/in-defense-of-equal-temperament-part-i
https://my.ptg.org/blogs/larry-lobel/2011/08/24/in-defense-of-equal-temperament-part-ii
Excellent links from klavieronin. No suprise there has been no response to it by latrobe.

excerpt:
HTs (Historical Temperaments) on modern instruments make no sense because our pianos with their much higher tension scales, when tuned in HTs do not reproduce the sounds our ancestors heard on the instruments of their day, and are just a parody of what is intended.   “We are not going to make a modern instrument sound like a 19th-century instrument by tuning it in a different temperament!” *

In our present era, many of us look back with nostalgia and appreciation to customs and knowledge of the past.  Though much from the past is worth learning and reviving, there’s also much that was mistaken or inadequate, which is why they disappeared or were replaced.  The tendency of some people to view things out of context and unjustifiably glorify them should be resisted, if we want to avoid bringing back things that didn’t work well or have been improved on.

Equal Temperament has admirably served the requirements of mainstream musicians for at least a hundred years.  Piano tuners, like doctors, are obligated to ‘do no harm’ to our customer’s pianos or musical enjoyment.  The use of historical temperaments on modern pianos should be fully understood by the tuner, explained carefully to the customer, and used only in the few situations when it’s judged appropriate.
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Offline latrobe

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Re: Chopin 24 preludes - should they be performed in Unequal Temperament?
«Reply #113 on: February 04, 2019, 12:08:43 PM »
HTs (Historical Temperaments) on modern instruments make no sense because our pianos with their much higher tension scales, when tuned in HTs do not reproduce the sounds our ancestors heard on the instruments of their day, and are just a parody of what is intended.   “We are not going to make a modern instrument sound like a 19th-century instrument by tuning it in a different temperament!” *
. . . .
Equal Temperament has admirably served the requirements of mainstream musicians for at least a hundred years.  Piano tuners, like doctors, are obligated to ‘do no harm’ to our customer’s pianos or musical enjoyment.

The point of my experiments and recordings above is that I have demonstrated for all to hear that a good unequal temperament
a. does no harm to the instrument
b. does no harm to the musical enjoyment for music not written for it
c. improves the tonality of the instrument exemplified by the recordings on the Concert Kawai above and is heard to be very good on the modern Steinway 432 recordings above
d. does reproduce a spectrum of contrasts from stillness to moving which was part of the historical experience heard by our ancestors
e. cleans the harmonic spectrum of resonance so as to allow historical pedalling techniques to be used
and therefore provides a valid alternative to equal temperament whilst providing added interest to the sound and the repertoire.

The acoustic piano is dying because technicians and musicians stuck in the rut of what's always been done as far as they're concerned are causing the instrument and its repertoire to be fixed in an aspic in which it's suffocating. Good tuners are in decreasing demand and therefore supply and the instrument and its technicians are being supplanted by electronic substitutes which don't need technician's skills. Highly praised among these are www.pianoteq.com which offerd the characteristics of numerous instruments historic and modern, and allows all to experiment with the effect of temperament on all such instruments, offering a large variety of variations.

The software provides a very functional free trial with which people can investigate.

So I encourage all to do the experiments and try historic and modern instruments in equal and unequal temperaments for themselves with the tool now at everyone's fingertips to try at no cost. Even better when you can tune your own acoustic instrument for yourself and then one really understands how the sound of the instrument is constructed. Tuning a piano isn't a matter of just tuning the strings, it's a matter of how the sound holds together, and when, and why.

Best wishes

David P
David Pinnegar BSc ARCS
Promoting keyboard heritage http://www.organmatters.co.uk and performers in Unequal Temperament http://www.hammerwood.mistral.co.uk/concerts.htm

Offline lostinidlewonder

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Re: Chopin 24 preludes - should they be performed in Unequal Temperament? NOPE
«Reply #114 on: February 04, 2019, 12:56:38 PM »
Blah blah, still have not addressed any of the points in the article klavieronin posted. Quoting someone then talking past everything said highlights ignorance. I will not address any of your comments in the previous post even though I could easily with pages of rebuttal since you are unable to even respond to basic points which go against your marginalized ideology of tuning.

This thread is not about our opinion as the title suggests "should they", instead it is all about giving latrobe attention. There is suggestion that there is secretive elite knowledge in what is said which is uttery laughable as the ideologies are severely marginalized. If we offer something to think about it is talked past and more delusions of grandeur spewed forth.
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Offline themeandvariation

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Re: Chopin 24 preludes - should they be performed in Unequal Temperament?
«Reply #115 on: February 04, 2019, 05:54:54 PM »
Interesting...the point quoted by 'LIIW'.. the assertion of how tension of strings on modern pianos affect the HT... This certainly pushes the debate..

As a composer, I'm always interested in the harmonic world that past composers were hearing..
The piano, having a quick decay, might be harder to hear 'up front' the harmonic difference than say, with the string quartet.. and the adjustments (intuitively?) made for resonance, or w less beats.  Or think of the resonance of barbershop quartets... It is easier to hear (generally) the affect - (due to the sustain factor)..
Personally, I don't have a dog in this fight.. but don't see why all tunings can't be judged equally ;D... and on the merits they offer particularly to the piece at hand.. 
I feel this argument has mostly pertained to music pre 20th century, though with modern composition, this tuning debate is a whole other kettle of fish..
4'33"

Offline latrobe

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Re: Chopin 24 preludes - should they be performed in Unequal Temperament?
«Reply #116 on: February 04, 2019, 06:49:45 PM »
Interesting...the point quoted by 'LIIW'.. the assertion of how tension of strings on modern pianos affect the HT... This certainly pushes the debate..
 . . .
The piano, having a quick decay, might be harder to hear 'up front' the harmonic difference than say, with the string quartet.. and the adjustments (intuitively?) made for resonance, or w less beats.  Or think of the resonance of barbershop quartets... It is easier to hear (generally) the affect - (due to the sustain factor).. . . . 
I feel this argument has mostly pertained to music pre 20th century, though with modern composition, this tuning debate is a whole other kettle of fish..

The modern instrument is an extremely harmonic animal. The tension on modern instrument strings is a red-herring. It all depends on the strike point of the hammer and how the hammer is formed and shaped. The Kawai which I tamed had plenty of 5th, 7th, 9th and 11th partials. The duplex scale was hideously out of tune and produced a harsh penetrating quality which was horribly unpleasant. By putting the 3rd harmonic of the bass strings onto the scale notes of the tenor and middle octaves the 3rd harmonic was reinforced so that others became less relevant. By using a scale where the home keys have near to pure 3rds the 5th harmonic reinforced sweetness in some keys and in others was so far away from the scale note that it became irrelevant. The reinforcement of resonating components brought sweetness so that the harsher elements become irrelevant.

This is why I can be so definite in what I say about what I call the harmonic temperaments improving the sound of the instrument. When you tune, which is not a privilege all musicians are fortunate enough to enjoy, you listen to things very particularly indeed and find after a time sense in the aural signals of what one's doing and achieving.

Barbershop quartets are examples of how we actually like to go to natural tunings. And pedagogically this is why beauty of sound in the warm more pure home keys is particularly attractive for children and gets them listening to the sound rather than considering piano practice merely a chore. Going to the remote keys eventually takes them into explorations of different places.

Modern music - there's so much now being written and considered in the microtonal arena and the Pianoteq software is now supplanting the boredom of the fixed equal temperament instrument. Just downloading the working sample software and trying out the different temperaments can be very exciting.

Best wishes

David P
David Pinnegar BSc ARCS
Promoting keyboard heritage http://www.organmatters.co.uk and performers in Unequal Temperament http://www.hammerwood.mistral.co.uk/concerts.htm

Offline latrobe

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Re: Chopin 24 preludes - should they be performed in Unequal Temperament? NOPE
«Reply #117 on: February 06, 2019, 01:39:01 AM »
Wow! You have so much secret insider knowledge!!
Please allow me to ask - do you tune instruments yourself?

I do have insider knowledge from so doing.

Best wishes

David P
David Pinnegar BSc ARCS
Promoting keyboard heritage http://www.organmatters.co.uk and performers in Unequal Temperament http://www.hammerwood.mistral.co.uk/concerts.htm

Offline dogperson

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Re: Chopin 24 preludes - should they be performed in Unequal Temperament? NOPE
«Reply #118 on: February 06, 2019, 02:32:50 AM »
Please allow me to ask - do you tune instruments yourself?

I do have insider knowledge from so doing.

Best wishes

David P


Did your ‘insider knowledge’ receive agreement from the experienced technicians on this forum linked below? Must have missed it

http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/2806054/call-for-papers-interest-restoring-emotion-with-tuning.html#Post2806054

Offline latrobe

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Re: Chopin 24 preludes - should they be performed in Unequal Temperament?
«Reply #119 on: February 06, 2019, 03:49:36 AM »
There has been significant "Equal Temperament bias" in the piano trade for a long time and some technicians are more enlightened along the road than others. The seminar on 6th May will be pulling together a number of musicians who have first hand experience of playing with the unequal tunings, technicians and tuners and music lovers alike.

There's a much longer history of piano technicians discussing my experiments and recordings on http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/1590814/1.html

One of the problems in the UK is that the former London College of Furniture was the training ground for musical instrument manufacture and maintenance training. They taught unequal temperaments but when it and its successor closed knowledge started dying. As a result the former generation of tuners were rather more acquainted than the current tuners coming along as well as those who learned their trades with the former British manufacturers, who simply did things as the factories had for a few generations.

But as far as insider knowledge is concerned, when one tunes one does have knowledge unavailable to those who don't tune. Not documented knowledge - you hear things.

Meanwhile anyone can experiment with the sound of modern pianos tuned to unequal temperaments with the free version of www.pianoteq.com

Best wishes

David P

David Pinnegar BSc ARCS
Promoting keyboard heritage http://www.organmatters.co.uk and performers in Unequal Temperament http://www.hammerwood.mistral.co.uk/concerts.htm

Offline klavieronin

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Re: Chopin 24 preludes - should they be performed in Unequal Temperament?
«Reply #120 on: February 06, 2019, 05:02:28 AM »

Offline latrobe

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Re: Chopin 24 preludes - should they be performed in Unequal Temperament?
«Reply #121 on: February 06, 2019, 11:57:53 AM »
When you do the statitistical work I've suggested you'll understand that application of resonant tuning for tonal improvement of pianos is more than a matter of motivated reasoning and many musicians have heard it. The desire to expand beyond the stuck-in-the-rut of equal temperament is causing simulation such as www.pianoteq.com to bring irrelevance to the acoustic instrument. It's time for the acoustic trade to catch up.

Anyone now can do the experiments that are very time consuming to do with acoustic instruments easily using this software.

To the extent of limitations of camera, recording, and the more primitive techniques I used then,

is a helpful demonstration.

Expert tuner Ed Foote who tuned for Edin Katahn has trodden the path I've followed before me http://www.piano-tuners.org/edfoote/well_tempered_piano.html
https://www.piano-tuners.org/edfoote/index.html

This is a matter of not understanding what's being discussed until you've tried it. For those who claim critical thinking I recommend going away and doing so, free resources to do so being at the click of a computer link.

Best wishes

David Pinnegar
David Pinnegar BSc ARCS
Promoting keyboard heritage http://www.organmatters.co.uk and performers in Unequal Temperament http://www.hammerwood.mistral.co.uk/concerts.htm

Offline klavieronin

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Re: Chopin 24 preludes - should they be performed in Unequal Temperament?
«Reply #122 on: February 06, 2019, 11:31:35 PM »
latrobe,

Congratulations of finding another excuse to post one of your videos and a link to www.pianoteq.com. (I'm beginning to wonder if you are a spokesman for them.)

Just so you know, I didn't post that video about motivated reasoning as a personal criticism, more as a friendly reminder of how we can be susceptible to our own biases. This includes me also, of course, but I think many of the points made in the video apply to things you have said in this thread.

Do you honestly believe that these statements, made by you, are purely rational statements, based on empirical evidence, and not motivated by personal preference, emotion, or ideological bias?

Quote from: latrobe
The point about unequal temperament is that melodic lines take on a more interesting structure and chords shape-shift. Emotion aside, this makes the music intrinsically more interesting and equal temperament more boring and grey. In the case of the Raindrop, the tuning makes the clouds darker and the mist more obscure and the rain dropping at times onto a tin roof with a metallic twang and the glimpses of sun are more that mid mediterranean stronger sun than we see in the greyness of more northerly climes.

Quote from: latrobe
When one moves to Meantone, the emotions are displayed.

Quote from: latrobe
This led to my tuning of an 1802 piano in Meantone, with dramatic effect in the Mozart K280 sonata relating to being buried in the grave and coming to life again and illuminating Beethoven's Tempest with the ethereal and supernatural atmosphere intended from Shakespeare's play 'The Enchanted Isle'

Quote from: latrobe
The tunings often give a subliminal effect which affects both performer and more unconsciously the audience. A deeper emotional effect is experienced.

Quote from: latrobe
This is F minor. The key of death, grief and mourning. Inconsolable despair. The slough of despond. The use of specific keys by composers for specific emotional effect is real. And it's not imaginary. You can hear it.

Quote from: latrobe
If you _listen_ to the meantone performance of the Tempest then the interference of the supernatural and the ethereal is audible and the music itself proves the connexion for those who have musical ears to hear. The fact that you appear not to be able to do so, together with a disputatious approach towards that which is readily researched merely to demonstrate yourself to be Kleverer than others somewhat disqualifies your opinions in this thread from having much weight.

And don't forget, I'm the one who actually tried to conduct and blind experiment on the difference between temperaments, so you can't tell me that I simply haven't tried to experience the difference between ET and UT and therefore don't understand what is being discussed.

I'm all for people using historical tunings if they wish, and especially in period accurate performances, but you seem to be claiming that UT is intrinsically 'better' than ET. Well, I'm sorry to say but that, my friend, is a statement of personal opinion, not fact. The fact is that our ears (actually our brains) adjust to tuning in the same way that our palette adjusts to taste. Would you ever claim that mangoes taste objectively 'better' that peaches?

Allow me to give an analogy to illustrate what I think is happening here;

Imagine we our in an art gallery looking at Michelangelo's 'David'. You have been in the room longer than everyone else so your eyes have adjusted to the light. You begin to see the texture of the stone and conclude that is is an integral part of the artwork. You then insist that we must all take a closer look. "The texture of the stone", you proclaim "highlights the true perfection of the form". Some decide to take a closer look, some agree with your assessment, some don't, but most prefer to stand back and admire the sculpture from a distance, where the full form is in view. The texture does, of course, have an effect on the quality of the sculpture, but it's not what most people admire about it.

Offline ted

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Re: Chopin 24 preludes - should they be performed in Unequal Temperament?
«Reply #123 on: February 07, 2019, 10:12:15 AM »
But for klavieronin's impeccable and conclusive reasoning hopefully bringing it to a halt this discussion promised to rival the legendary "breadboy" thread of 2004.
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Offline latrobe

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Re: Chopin 24 preludes - should they be performed in Unequal Temperament?
«Reply #124 on: February 07, 2019, 12:58:00 PM »
Well actually if you read my paper on Mozart and the colour of tuning in Mozart's day you'll see that the quote that you specifically chose relating to K280, to Meantone very much makes sense. If you _listen_ to my recording of the slow movement of the K280 you'll hear expressions of sadness, grief, objection "why has this happened to me" and a whole host of emotions consistent with being buried in the grave and consistent with the reported attributes of the key of F minor.

With regard to shape-shifting of chords

is an example where through modulation the temperament gives us landmarks on the journey through the piece.

With regard to the Raindrop prelude, there is a good example for experiment. The software that I have pointed to gives you the opportunity to try it. I'm not aware of other software to do so. The trial is comprehensive and free and gives you the opportunity to try, to prove or disprove what I am saying. If other software exists with functionality for this purpose kindly let me know and I'll draw attention to it likewise.

If you or anyone else comments disparagingly without having done the experiments, nor the calculations, you're demonstrating lack of scientific objectivity that you espouse. Scientific method requires doing the experiments. The software provides the tool and as a statistician you're able to do the mathematics on the subject of harmonic accordance. You appear to be commenting promoting scientific rationality having done neither the experiment nor the mathematics.

Those who actually tune, hear. What we hear is an analogue of the mathematics. It's not written but is valid.

The Raindrop becomes a really interesting example when we play it on a tuning with harmonic accordance. Essentially by forcing the Pythagorean comma to be divided among 5 perfect fifths rather than 12, we put inaccuracies of the scale further apart. When we divide it among 12, the whole point of equal temperament is that it puts the fifths near enough perfect to be rather good - and near enough for them all to resonate close to the harmonics and beat. So none are still. All the thirds beat at a perfectly increasing rate as we go up the scale. Beating means that the sound is moving. Nothing is still. This gives the gleam, the glistening shimmering effect to a fully harmonically capable piano. An example of this were the concert Bechsteins around 1900 which made the unison strings of different lengths as an ultimate tool to give that gleaming shimmering sound in which nothing is still and everything moves. Singingly.

So in contrast when we make perfect seven or eight fifths in the scale, we reduce the primary modes of resonance with harmonics down from twelve down to seven or eight. We put many thirds further from the 5th harmonic so we reduce the numbers of close beating resonances there, and change the tonality of the sound coming from the instrument and the key.

In the home keys of C and G we have near perfect thirds and more than equal temperament flattened fifths. These keys sound warm and still with the perfect thirds. In Kellner the F major the third is nearly perfect and the fifth perfect. We then get a warm balanced harmonic resonance from the bass strings.

If you've ever had the opportunity to construct sounds using a Hammond Organ with drawbars you'll be familiar with the construction of different organ stops, flutes, diapasons, oboes, clarinets, trumpets with the different proportions of the addition of harmonics. So using tuning to get different harmonics to be prominent changes tonality as we change key.

The remote keys such as Db F# and Ab have perfect fifths giving stillness to those intervals and allowing the third to sing. That singing is audible in the recording of the Chopin  Nocturnes in Alderney. B major has sharp thirds and a tempered fifth, and upon which arpeggiated passages skate on  ice, as demonstrated in other videos that no doubt I've quoted. All the keys had different aural effects.

Back to the Raindrop prelude. Chopin is known for
a. having practiced on the pantalon. Without dampers the pantalon encaptures the spirit of the hammered dulcimer at the heart of folk music and which so inspired much of the origins of Chopin's music.
b. indicating pedal markings requiring the sustain pedal to be used for extended passages and even beyond a conventional change of bass chord.

In the Raindrop this can be accommodated especially well with the reduced modes of resonance that the unequal temperament provides, reducing the tonal confusion and movement as a result of holding the pedal down. It is possible using the technique of not allowing any subsequent note to interrupt the sound of the previous note, playing lighter and faster. When one does this the raindrop can cease to be the rather boring sound we hear on recordings on Classic FM and instead becomes the landscape and seascape at Valdemosa or Deia in Mallorca nearby. One can see the still sea and mist and not see the junction of sea and sky, with drizzle falling out of the mist, black clouds and sunshine shining through.

The temperament provides new perspectives on performance.

Music nowadays has tended towards the circus act of speed and volume and virtuosity with accuracy aiming for a repeatable performance on a standard instrument in a standard tuning in which all is standard and each of the keys are the same without variation.

This is distracting from the music, from musicality, from musicians listening to the sound and adapting to what they hear and what is written into the music. This is why I say insistently that equal temperament is bad for music. Real music.

With regard to the Meantone experiment with Beethoven's tempest you'll see on that YouTube page the comments of someone who starts as derogatorily as yourself but then goes to find the original Shakespeare play and then sees, hears and understands the music and the pointer I've given.

In quoting this example you appear to have not done the homework to which I've pointed.

The experiment that you did was admirable but was singular, on a low statistical level and unfocussed on what you were looking for. "Does it sound nice" is one question but "Is there any purpose to changing interval sizes and what effects to they give?" is another whilst "What effect do different interval sizes have on resonance?" is another.

Whilst matters of tuning and opinion can be subjective as a matter of taste and personal taste and conditioning, the harmonic series is something fixed with which there is no room for anything subjective or a matter of mere opinion. Questions relating to the extent to which one moves notes in tuning and their effect, and as to whether composers exploited it, and what effect this has on the piano sound and technique of playing the instrument are very much more intertwined and complex than the experiment in subjectivity you conducted.

This thread was started in 2010 contemporary with http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/1590814/all/Some_sweet_video's:_an_older_p.html where appreciation was expressed for my work and the experiments I was doing and publishing and as here was no matter for controversy for some eight years.

One page of gentlemanly discussion on this thread and examples in 8 years then two pages of controversy in less than a month speaks for itself about the nature of current contributors. The controversy here recently has started with people who have not done the experiments of playing either on real instruments or on suggested software, not looked at the Shakespeare to which Beethoven pointed Schindler, nor done the calculations of coherence of resonance between harmonics and scale notes and their correlation in equal and other temperaments.

Until those who consider that my work in this thread should be "debunked" have explored those practical and academic areas, their debunking is flawed and a matter of trolling my long standing thread and the serious work I've been undertaking for over a decade in the serious effort to bring higher standards of musicianship and appreciation of classical music back into the more popular understanding and domain.

Here's another person on this forum who comes to similar conclusions as I express in this thread https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=40017.0

Best wishes,

David P
David Pinnegar BSc ARCS
Promoting keyboard heritage http://www.organmatters.co.uk and performers in Unequal Temperament http://www.hammerwood.mistral.co.uk/concerts.htm

Offline klavieronin

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Re: Chopin 24 preludes - should they be performed in Unequal Temperament?
«Reply #125 on: February 08, 2019, 01:44:30 AM »
Well actually if you read my paper on Mozart and the colour of tuning in Mozart's day you'll see that the quote that you specifically chose relating to K280, to Meantone very much makes sense. If you _listen_ to my recording of the slow movement of the K280 you'll hear expressions of sadness, grief, objection "why has this happened to me" and a whole host of emotions consistent with being buried in the grave and consistent with the reported attributes of the key of F minor.

Putting aside that fact that music is an abstract art form and therefore doesn't actually express anything (the emotions we feel while listening to music are projected onto the music by us, not the other way round), are you saying that it is purely down to the temperament and has nothing to do with the actual music or the interpretation and execution of the performer?

With regard to shape-shifting of chords

is an example where through modulation the temperament gives us landmarks on the journey through the piece.

I see you found another opportunity to post one of your videos.

If you or anyone else comments disparagingly without having done the experiments, nor the calculations, you're demonstrating lack of scientific objectivity that you espouse. Scientific method requires doing the experiments.

Why do you insist that I haven't done the experiments? Apart from my attempt at a blind experiment here on pianostreet, I watched several of your videos, I have been using pianoteq for at least a year, plus my Kawai CS6 allows me to change the temperament and I have experimented with that on many occasions, playing everything from Bach to Villa-lobos. I've done the experiments. I can hear the difference to varying degrees depending on the temperament but what I don't hear is "sadness, grief, objection 'why has this happened to me'" when playing in F minor or "love, of devotion, of intimate conversation with God" when playing in E-flat major.

And even if those descriptions of the keys were accurate, you still have to demonstrate why UT is able to communicate them but ET isn't. So far all you have done is assert that it is true and that we should trust you because you tune pianos.

The software provides the tool and as a statistician you're able to do the mathematics on the subject of harmonic accordance.

You're confusing me with georgey. He is the mathematician, not me.

Those who actually tune, hear. What we hear is an analogue of the mathematics. It's not written but is valid.

If that's true then why do you expect the rest of us to hear it also. We are not tuners so temperament shouldn't make any difference to us, right?

The Raindrop becomes a really interesting example when we play it on a tuning with harmonic accordance.

So, the Raindrop prelude is not interesting in ET? I beg to differ.

Chopin is known for […] having practiced on the pantalon. Without dampers the pantalon encaptures the spirit of the hammered dulcimer at the heart of folk music and which so inspired much of the origins of Chopin's music.

Well then, I guess a modern piano is completely inappropriate for Chopin.

[…] the raindrop can cease to be the rather boring sound we hear on recordings on Classic FM and instead becomes the landscape and seascape at Valdemosa or Deia in Mallorca nearby. One can see the still sea and mist and not see the junction of sea and sky, with drizzle falling out of the mist, black clouds and sunshine shining through.

Pure projection. If it had been called 'The Return' or 'Unconsoled' or some other evocative title you would have a completely different interpretation. But again, let's assume you are right, how does the presence of beats or having a uniform sound in all keys destroy the picture that Chopin was painting, especially considering that most people wouldn't notice any difference (since most people aren't piano tuners)?

Music nowadays has tended towards the circus act of speed and volume and virtuosity with accuracy aiming for a repeatable performance on a standard instrument in a standard tuning in which all is standard and each of the keys are the same without variation.

I think that depends who you are listening to but surely you aren't saying that equal temperament is responsible for overly virtuosic performances. People were complaining about excess virtuosity long before ET came on the scene.

This is distracting from the music, from musicality, from musicians listening to the sound and adapting to what they hear and what is written into the music. This is why I say insistently that equal temperament is bad for music. Real music.

Who determines what is 'real' music? And how does ET prevent musicians from listening to adapting to what they are playing?

With regard to the Meantone experiment with Beethoven's tempest you'll see on that YouTube page the comments of someone who starts as derogatorily as yourself…

What have I said that was derogatory? Please quote me.

… but then goes to find the original Shakespeare play and then sees, hears and understands the music and the pointer I've given.

In quoting this example you appear to have not done the homework to which I've pointed.

I read what I could find and from what I understand there is some doubt among academics about the claim, but that is beside the point. My contention is not that Beethoven wasn't inspired by Shakespeare when composing his sonata, but that the difference between ET and UT doesn't have the dramatic effect that you are claiming and that simply altering the tuning does not allow one to hear the 'supernatural' inspiration where before it was completely obscured by ET.

The experiment that you did was admirable but was singular, on a low statistical level and unfocussed on what you were looking for. "Does it sound nice" is one question but "Is there any purpose to changing interval sizes and what effects to they give?" is another whilst "What effect do different interval sizes have on resonance?" is another.

In any experiment you must be clear about what you are testing. In that case I was testing just how big a difference temperament made and whether there was any consistency in people's preference for one tuning over others. But the experiment was a failure. There were flaws in the method and not enough people replied.

Whilst matters of tuning and opinion can be subjective as a matter of taste and personal taste and conditioning, the harmonic series is something fixed with which there is no room for anything subjective or a matter of mere opinion. Questions relating to the extent to which one moves notes in tuning and their effect, and as to whether composers exploited it, and what effect this has on the piano sound and technique of playing the instrument are very much more intertwined and complex than the experiment in subjectivity you conducted.

Yes, I understand that. Tuning a piano is an insoluble problem so you have to weight the pros and cons. Throughout history, temperaments have been edging towards ET because composers and performers have wanted the flexibility that comes with being able to write and play equally well in all keys. I'm not saying that ET is therefore best, but that is what musicians seem to have voted for.


One page of gentlemanly discussion on this thread and examples in 8 years then two pages of controversy in less than a month speaks for itself about the nature of current contributors. […] Until those who consider that my work in this thread should be "debunked" have explored those practical and academic areas, their debunking is flawed and a matter of trolling


As far as I'm concerned, apart from a handful sarcastic comments, most of this thread has been reasonably respectful. I think it's just that more people are disagreeing with you now. Nobody is trying to 'debunk' your work. We just have different opinions and care about different things when it comes to music. Again, if I have said anything that could be even remotely construed as trolling, please quote me.

Offline ted

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Re: Chopin 24 preludes - should they be performed in Unequal Temperament?
«Reply #126 on: February 08, 2019, 01:59:36 AM »
....music is an abstract art form and therefore doesn't actually express anything (the emotions we feel while listening to music are projected onto the music by us, not the other way round)..

That is what I have asserted for ages, thank goodness somebody else thinks so too. It isn't a popular notion, but I have never seen a coherent refutation of it.
"We're all bums when the wagon comes." - Waller

Offline latrobe

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Re: Chopin 24 preludes - should they be performed in Unequal Temperament?
«Reply #127 on: February 08, 2019, 10:23:51 AM »
I don't think it's possible to explain to someone who can't see red or blue what green looks like.

There also seems to be some misunderstanding of language because I thought my explanation in regard to the Raindrop prelude, the different approach to pedalling and performance that the unequal temperament opens up and therefore potential different interpretation based in addition on Chopin's recorded use of the pantalon, was explicitly clear.

If you bother to _listen_ to the examples of the Mozart Fantasias for Mechanical Clock which I have similated in meantone you'll hear emotional content which accords with the nature of the art installation for which they were commissioned. They were written for mechanical performance without the medium of a performer, for an instrument of just one rank of stopped pipes and a set of reeds with truncated resonators in the bass, the only variable to the performance being the temperament alone. The choice of key, F minor, conveys emotion by reason of the narrow minor third from F to Ab which sounds sadder than the conventionally heard minor and the very wide Ab to C which introduces pain to the sound. The music composed by Mozart uses merely key choice and temperament to convey emotion by reason of its departure from harmonic accordances which please us. The emotion is conveyed directly by the vibration of sound and whether it calms us or makes us disorientated or disturbed.

Music is not a matter of what is written on paper, the abstract spots on lines on a page, but by the vibrations that a musical instrument translates them into.

If you think that music is purely abstract and does not convey emotion then I'm unable to explain to blind people how to see. No matter what experiments you do with your Pianoteq software you're not going to be able to see nor hear what is being talked about.

Despite your own personal disbeliefs there are plenty of people including experienced and enlightened technicians who have come to different opinions from yourself http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/2312835/temperament-for-mozart-piano-concertos.html#Post2312835 records experience of the effect on an audience where the piano was tuned to Young's temperament.

On http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/2811650/call-for-papers-interest-restoring-emotion-with-tuning.html#Post2811650 you'll find a couple of piano technicians reporting the advantages of using an unequal temperament, Bill Bremmer being one of the most experienced of all.

The matters of controversy in this thread are more appropriate for the thread on this forum https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=40017.50

With regard to hearing the effects it's appropriate to quote https://stereosociety.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/BACHandTUNING-screen.pdf :
Quote
example of Kirnberger’s student supporters is Georg Friedrich Tempelhof 1737-1807). Rita Steblin paraphrases Templehof’s views: “He argues as follows: if the keys of the ancients could produce particular effects why should our keys not have the same ability? Even untrained ears, he continues, perceive that each key possess a special quality: one key is somewhat gentle, sweet, serious, melancholy, tragic or fearful; another is somewhat joyful, lively, sumptuous, etc. The individual colour of each key is caused, for the most part, by the varying degrees of impurity in the intervals. If it were possible to have only pure intervals in every key, music would be deprived of one of its greatest beauties: no one could distinguish in which key a piece was being played. The same argument holds for a system in which no interval is made pure; this is sufficient reason to reject equal temperament. The Kirnberger temperament, on the other hand, is the best of all tuning systems since each key is differentiated from the others” (Steblin, p.93). Tempelhof’s Gedanken _ber die Temperatur des Herrn Kirnberger, Berlin and Leipzig: Decker, 1775, see especially pp. 3-11.
so clearly for those with ears to hear there is something to be heard from the use of such temperaments.

Kellner is a modified form of Kirnberger III.

A couple of tuning trolls in the professional world who claim that the modern Equal Temperament as tuned today was used from the time of Mozart claim various things including that the Kirnberger III temperament was not published at the time. Kirnberger actually wrote of his temperament including 7 pure fifths and 5 tempered fifths in 1779 http://harpsichords.pbworks.com/f/Kirn_1871.html so the trolls are clearly wrong and misconceived.

As to the question as to whether the Chopin 24 Preludes should be performed in Unequal Temperament, it is answered specifically by http://digitool.library.mcgill.ca/webclient/StreamGate?folder_id=0&dvs=1549621299701~293 which on page 36 specifically references recordings in videos I've quoted in this thread.

Asking your piano technician to tune accordingly therefore becomes appropriate.

Best wishes

David P
David Pinnegar BSc ARCS
Promoting keyboard heritage http://www.organmatters.co.uk and performers in Unequal Temperament http://www.hammerwood.mistral.co.uk/concerts.htm

Offline latrobe

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Re: Chopin 24 preludes - should they be performed in Unequal Temperament?
«Reply #128 on: February 09, 2019, 01:06:44 PM »
I don't think it's possible to explain to someone who can't see red or blue what green looks like.

https://www.jstor.org/stable/765411 is relevant.

Helmholtz's research on the perception of tone remains the authority still. Ellis translated the work into English.

Source: Proceedings of the Musical Association, 1st Sess. (1874 - 1875), pp. 159-165
 ILLUSTRATIONS OF JUST AND TEMPERED INTONATION.
 By ALEXANDER JOHN ELLIS, ESQ., B.A., F.R.S

Quote
Mr. ELLIS, in conclusion, said his main object had been to
 show how experiments might be made, so as to verify the
 statements of Helmholtz. His harmonium was tuned by
 making seven major chords perfect, and by its help almost
 every experiment needed might be tried. Ordinary tuning-
 forks, and ordinary jars, tuned with a little water, served to
 produce the simple tones, and to hear their beats as distinguished
 from the others. Those who wished really to study Helmholtz's
 book would find it necessary to have something to guide their
 ear, for though it was said by Dr. Macfarren, that you could hear
 the right through the wrong, it was very difficult for the ma majority of people, who never happened to have heard the right.

This goes to the very heart of many of the objections in this thread. When more people play classical music and Chopin in particular on instruments tuned to a Kirnberger, Kellner, 6th or 7th comma Meantone or Vallotti/Young temperament the characteristics identified in the work of many of us and http://digitool.library.mcgill.ca/webclient/StreamGate?folder_id=0&dvs=1549621299701~293 in particular will become cleare.

Best wishes

David Pinnegar
David Pinnegar BSc ARCS
Promoting keyboard heritage http://www.organmatters.co.uk and performers in Unequal Temperament http://www.hammerwood.mistral.co.uk/concerts.htm

Offline latrobe

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Re: Chopin 24 preludes - should they be performed in Unequal Temperament?
«Reply #129 on: February 16, 2019, 03:27:53 PM »
The book "Chopin's Piano" by Paul Kildea identified Erard pianos as encouraging unequal tuning for the piano in the 20th Century. Confirming my experiments this puts the soundworld of Debussy and Ravel firmly into the realms of unequal tuning, and not that which we hear universally today.

The source is source of this in 1927 - https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k123724v.pdf on page 678. He's recommending a system using 7 perfect fifths and 5 tempered fifths, not unlike that which I've been testing for the past dozen years on concert instruments, in the genre of Kirnberger III published to Fokker in 1779 and such as modified by Dr Kellner identifying it with Bach.

Blondel at Erard identified the effect as "harmonious and possessed of a charm which makes plain the natural qualities of the instrument"

Perhaps we can trace a lineage. Werkmeister to Bach. Bach had his own ideas. https://stereosociety.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/BACHandTUNING-screen.pdf Kirnberger was not at liberty to disclose them but could do something similar and published his 7 perfect fifth 5 tempered fifth temperament in 1779 to Fokker. Chopin was based for some time in Vienna and was within the circle of Kalkbrenner, Liszt, Moscheles and others of highest echelon of the day. He was international and whilst in France communicating with Hamburg. In Mallorca he had with him Bach's 48 which he admired. In Mallorca he had a piano by Bauza. Local tuning would have been unequal from the Spanish traditions. This puts Chopin's 24 preludes firmly in the realm of unequal temperament. Whilst preferring Pleyel he also played Erard. Systems of tuning 7 perfect fifths and 5 tempered fifths were known and recommended by Erard even until the late 20s.

The other day I tuned a Steinway A and my friends teased me "Congratulations! You've ruined a Steinway" with smiles on their faces "It sounds like a Pleyel".

Having analysed the relationship of harmonics to scale in the course of tuning, I've come to the conclusion that one can either tody to the inharmoncity and tune the instrument to accord with the inharmonicities, or one can tune to enhance the purity of the harmonics. In the former case one's stretching octaves to make the inharmonic harmonics reinforce in "least entropy" tuning, leaning towards the concept of something like the gamalan in the extreme, or making the scale largely harmonic and tuning the bass strings to reinforce in-tune harmonics bringing a sweetness and sonority to which Blondel referred and for which the majority of lasting piano repertoire was composed.

This is not of mere academic interest without practical result. Reverting to the Erard soundworld may well give impetus to new enthusiasm for the repertoire, for the instrument, for instrument sales, for tuners willing and able to tune unequally and for the reason for new recordings in the revived tuning soundworld released from the straightjacket of modern Equal Temperament.

Best wishes

David P
David Pinnegar BSc ARCS
Promoting keyboard heritage http://www.organmatters.co.uk and performers in Unequal Temperament http://www.hammerwood.mistral.co.uk/concerts.htm

Offline latrobe

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The question of this thread will be much advanced by music lovers, experienced performers and piano tuners and technicians on Monday - programme for Seminar at Hammerwood Park, East Grinstead, Sussex, UK on 6th May attached.

Best wishes

David P
David Pinnegar BSc ARCS
Promoting keyboard heritage http://www.organmatters.co.uk and performers in Unequal Temperament http://www.hammerwood.mistral.co.uk/concerts.htm