What do you think of the Yamaha GB1 piano?

[porcupine]

Hi - I signed up to Piano Street some time ago because I needed to download some music in a hurry, but this is the first time I've posted on the message board.
I have a small upright piano which was an 18th birthday present from my parents (I'm in my 50s now!) - it's always been treated with respect and maintained well. However, my dream is to own a grand piano. I have rather taken a shine to a beautiful brand new Yamaha grand at my local theatre which I play sometimes. I would love to own something like it. Due to lack of space at home, plus cost considerations, the only new Yamaha I could contemplate is their entry level baby grand, the GB1. I've read some mixed reviews about this (especially about the build quality) and wondered whether anyone out there either owns one, or has experience of one and could let me have the unvarnished truth about it. I have up to about £9000 to spend, so are there any alternatives, bearing in mind I have quite a small room which would only just accommodate a baby grand. Remember, I've fallen in love with the Yamaha grand at the local theatre, so this might be clouding my judgement a bit!

[richard black]

I've played a couple of them and I think they are just about the most unpleasant pianos I've ever laid hands on. You don't expect the bottom few notes on a small grand to sound amazing, of course, but the whole bottom two octaves on the GB1 sounds completely toneless and fundamentally out of tune with itself (even the notes with just one string, which is quite a feat). Even my mate's beat-up 1930s Challen baby grand sounds better, and feels better apart from the missing ivories.

[pianist1976]

There are few people who will recommend a baby grand. One of the reasons is that the action is closer to an upright than to a grand. If I was you, I'd try to do a bigger economic effort and/or look at the second hand market but trying to buy a real grand. A baby grand is usually 150 cm long. There are real grands such as Yamaha C2 and Kawai Rx2 which are 173-178 (5' 8") cm long and, in my opinion, they are better choices than any baby grand. Anyway, I personally think that  worthy grand pianos starts in 185 cm (Yamaha C3, Kawai Rx3 and, of course, Steinway A).

[keys60]

There are few people who will recommend a baby grand. One of the reasons is that the action is closer to an upright than to a grand.

[keys60]

  Oh my, did I ever screw that post up. Never used the quote feature before.
Pianist:
I'm sorry to dispute you, but that is a false statement. Baby grand actions are the same as grand actions although the do vary in design by the maker and the year it was built. Some grand actions are amazing and some are just down right crappy to the point of a high quality upright would probably be a better choice.

Upright pianos do not have repetition levers, grands and baby grands do. A Steinway M (5'7") or an S (5'1") has the same action as an O or a B. The difference is case, frame and string length. An S or an M will not sound anything like their larger pianos.
A C1 or C2 Yamaha will not have the sound of a C5-7 but can be real pleasures to play.

  Porcupine:

I still have the International Piano magazine March 2009 issue that has an article on affordable baby grands. Its a UK publication so the prices are in pounds,

The least expensive was an S. Ritter @ 3,999.  A lot more piano than expected and great for a starter to middle stages but the action still felt every bit the budget piano and of course, the sound starts to deteriorate toward the bass. Great for the price.

Halle & Voight from the Pearl River factory. 4,500.  Again they mention a big surprise in overall quality for the price and again, the sound was a bit weak in the bass. More piano for the money and they seemed more impressed than they though.

 Reid Sohn garnered a favorable review @ 9,999. Comes with a playback system, tone was impressive.

 Hamlyn Klein @ under 10 grand, could not review because the piano was not regulated yet.

OK. Now to the Yamaha GB/GC lines. Hate to burst your bubble, but here goes:

The GB1 @ 9,699 was a big disappointment. At that price it felt every bit the budget piano, which was unexpected. The piano desk does not move, the style was minimal, the keys felt tacky under fingers and the sound failed to compensate, sounding glassy at the top and weak in the bass.

 The GC1 fared slightly better, but at over 14,000, it was stretching the 12,000 budget that related to the article. Sounded much better and the action performed much better.

Now the big winners......the Kawai GM10 @ 8,499 and the GE30 @ 10,999.
No great loss in the bass. Sounded like a larger piano with depth. The keys felt good to play. The GE30 was described as a living instrument in which there was no higher praise for any in the lot.

Of course, I posted this to give you an idea of what these folks thought and it really only should matter what you think. These pretty much fall into your budget, so get out there and play them all.

Personally, i would also play as many of the higher quality preowned piano as I could too. You could probably do better in overall quality for your money. You could probably find a well cared for German instrument that's 15 or 20 years old for that price, nice and stable and played in.

Happy shopping. Keep us posted. Hope this helps.

[pianist1976]

I'm sorry to dispute you, but that is a false statement. Baby grand actions are the same as grand actions although the do vary in design by the maker and the year it was built. Some grand actions are amazing and some are just down right crappy to the point of a high quality upright would probably be a better choice.

I didn't explain properly  The action is not the same that in an upright. That's evident, in a baby grand the action is horizontal, just like in a real grand piano. But this doesn't mean that a baby grand action will have the same response that a real grand has. That's what I meant, that the touch sensations in a baby grand are, always in my opinion, closer to the control one can have in a vertical one.

The dynamic gamma, response touch and control in a real grand is, in my opinion and experience, very superior to any baby grand. In one of the classrooms where I do teach I have two pianos so I can talk from a real experience (and I've also tried some other baby grands in my life). One of the pianos is a Kawai baby grand and the other one is an older version of the RX-3 (I can't remember the exact model, RG-something?). The difference between the action of the baby grand and the real grand is awesome.

[porcupine]

Thanks for the advice everyone - especially key60's lengthy reply, which I found very interesting. Lots to think about here, I really need to open my mind to other makes than Yamaha I think. Also, I didn't realise there was such a fundamental difference between a baby grand and merely a small grand! Fitting the GB1 into my room would have been a tight squeeze, so I will have to measure the space really carefully and see if I can find enough space for a small grand. As I said, I have an absolute maximum of £9000, I'd rather spend a bit less if I can. I have to say that this is my "new year" project, and I think I'd be well advised to spend plenty of time doing the rounds of piano dealers and not rush into anything.

[quantum]

I would echo the above sentiments and advise you to try many other brands.  Since you are on a budget, not paying the premium for a well known name may yield you a bigger piano.  Size does matter when it comes to tone.  A large vertical in general will yield greater sonic gamut than a small baby grand.  However, the grand piano action is superior to that of a vertical.  Look at quality pre-owned instruments.  

Think about this: would you rather have a big sofa or a large grand piano?  Consider what objects in your space can be moved out to accommodate a better (larger) piano.  

[keys60]

I have that space problem too. I can probably do an M, but I have my eye on a rebuilt by Sap of Poland C. Bechstein, gorgeous piano, but its 6'7". Who needs a damned sofa anyway? The piano has a bench.

[keys60]

Pianist:

Again, and my experience is taking them apart, making repairs, rebuilding them, granted only at an advancing apprentice level, the actions are the same in the same line of pianos. The parts are the same. some key lengths may vary, but leverage can be adjusted through regulation. Now, if what you mean is your style of playing has to change to get a different response from the strings themselves, maybe digging in a bit more to achieve a better tonal quality, ok, that makes sense although there is only so much you will get out of a smaller piano no matter how much we adjust our styles.

Keep in mind, most institutions are going to better maintain there premium concert pianos as opposed to their smaller less played practice and lesson pianos. Piano maintenance is expensive and corners get cut.

[pianist1976]

Keys: If you opine that baby grands are as valuable as a grands, good for you. I'm not trying to convince you and you will not convince me since I have a strong opinion already formed by many years of playing experience, your arguments (opinions) will not easily change that. Just curious. Which your piano playing level is?

Regards.

[keys60]

Pianist. Where did I ever mention value? I'm talking about actions in like pianos. I respect your years of experience as a player/teacher and your ability to appreciate nuances of piano actions. As for opinions rather than facts, I'm stating fact. Ever get involved in rebuilding a piano, teacher? I have never taught piano. Race car driver do not rebuild their own cars either. It is of your opiinion that a baby grands action is more like an upright, as stated in your original post. Maybe you should talk to your technician on the subject.

[pianist1976]

Keys: Action can be almost the same (I agreed some posts ago). But subjectively, after earning a diploma and decades of piano struggling and playing, in my opinion and the opinion of all the colleagues I talked about this, they are not the same. I think that I earned my right to have a subjective opinion and according to that, the nuances and the control are very important in an instrument. They may have both the same action but almost for sure (in my opinion) they have not the same final response. For me, action of a baby grand feels closer to an upright. It's a feeling, what's wrong with that? Anyway, I'm not trying to convince you. In this matter, subjectivity is very important.

Maybe you should talk to your technician on the subject

My piano technician, who is one of the most renowned ones in my city, who is a true professional who works in big auditoriums, told me a few years ago not to buying a baby grand and buying a 185 cm piano as the minimum worthy size. I respect a lot his opinion and I usually pay attention to all his advices  

[keys60]

Pianist,

 For you and your advanced/professional capabilities, I would have to agree with you and your technician. You need and deserve all of the tonal qualities of a grand piano. As stated, no matter how good the action is of a baby grand, there is only so much you can do with technique to achieve the richness and overtones of a well made piano with long strings. I have worked on, regulated, played and tuned Steinway S (5'1"), Sohmers, Mason Hamlins and Yamaha C1 (all in the 5-5'1" range)that honestly are quite unfulfilling tonally. I appreciated the response of the action yet still remain unimpressed, especially at the price the Steinway and Mason Hamlin
command. You have reached a level of professionalism that some readers that want a decent step up piano have not.

 What I was trying to do to help the original poster was to help with an instrument that fell into a limited budget and capabilities that may not be as advanced as your own.

[porcupine]

What I was trying to do to help the original poster was to help with an instrument that fell into a limited budget and capabilities that may not be as advanced as your own.

....and that was appreciated! I'm now measuring my room (actually it's my dining room which doubles as a music room) and "negotiating" with my wife to see if I can squeeze in a "proper" (albeit small) grand 
I intend auditioning some pianos in London and Buckinghamshire after Christmas.

[keys60]

Porcupine. Just a taste. = )

https://www.besbrodepianos.co.uk/piano-sale/bluthner-grand-piano-8.htm

Click on the areas you find the most convenient to travel to and there is a list of shops in that city.
Take your time. Don't be in a rush. Visit as many shops as possible and play a lot of pianos in your budget and size that suits your home. I found this link quite helpful.

https://www.uk-piano.org/piano_shops/index.html

All the best. I hope to hear back after your purchase.

[richard black]

Incidentally, and this is of no use to the original poster on account of the price (ahem), the Fazioli nearly-baby grand (really short, in the region of 150cm) is stunning, but then at the price I guess it should be. The Steingräber small grands I've played have been impressive too, but again you do get to pay for it.

[silverwoodpianos]

Well I have been repairing instrument for 38 years. Piano actions in grand pianos are identical with the exception being the key set of differing lengths. They all work on the same principals and fundamentals.

Remember that action makers make actions only for the most part. Renner for example does not make key sets.

I don’t know how a baby grand piano could not be considered a real grand piano. Traditionally baby grand means anything under 5’ 8” for the most part. Down into the 5’ range or less and you are talking about miniature grand’s.These are not real pianos for some reason?  This is a nonsense claim or just bad English.

For the OP I would tend to look at the new Ritmueller 4’10 coming from Pearl River. High end components make up the construction from Strunz sounding boards to Renner actions and hammer sets.

Larry Fine lists them as the best instrument under 5 ft.

Here you are; happy reading….


PIANO BUYER” by Larry Fine

“My hands-down favorites in this category were the redesigned Ritmueller pianos by Pearl River.  This year, the line underwent a complete redesign overseen by Lothar Thomma, Germany’s most famous piano designer who began his career at Bechstein. For the new models, Thomma created new rims, plates, and stringing scales. The rims all have rather wide, flat-nosed tails, a shape that allows the bass bridge to be placed farther from the rim. In addition, the tails of the bass strings, between the back bridge pins and the hitch pins, are much longer. This arrangement permits the bass bridge to vibrate more freely, among other things giving the bass sound greater clarity. Although this phenomenon was amply demonstrated by all three pianos, it was especially noticeable on the smaller models, which lacked the "muddy" bass often characteristic of small grands. The new pianos also have solid spruce soundboards and vertically laminated bridges, better-quality features that arguably enhance tonal color.
I liked the sound quality and sustain of all the Ritmüller models. The medium-tension stringing scale avoids the excessive high harmonics and inharmonicity characteristic of the higher-tension scales sometimes found in modern pianos, producing instead a clear, bell-like, uncomplicatedly "European" sound. And these models' light, responsive action makes it easy to attain a great dynamic range from very soft to very loud and full”

[porcupine]

For the OP I would tend to look at the new Ritmueller 4’10 coming from Pearl River. High end components make up the construction from Strunz sounding boards to Renner actions and hammer sets.

Larry Fine lists them as the best instrument under 5 ft.

Thanks for this - I'll certainly bear all of that in mind. 

[richard black]

Hey, yeah, thanks for that, silverwood. I'll look one of those out some time and have a play. It'd be good to be able to recommend something small with a bit of enthusiasm one day!

[keys60]

Yes, Mr. Silverwood. Thanks for that.
Unfortunately, too many people don't realize that the Asians (China in particular)are really getting their act together concerning musical instruments. Pearl River sounds like a corny and cheap name and is easily dismissed before the research is applied. Folks are doing themselves a disservice by not checking these instruments out. Sure, by comparison to the big German and American names, there will be the naysayers, but there is a whole lot of piano there for the hard earned.

  I do a lot of research on stringed instruments too since my multitalented daughter plays the cello as well as the piano. There are some good quality instruments there too. There are a lot of international makers setting up shop in Asia and actually teaching them how to do it right. Still a lot of fine resources way up in the mountains too. It starts with good wood.

[richard black]

Funnily enough I played a Kawai baby grand (forgot to check the model but it was about 140-odd cm, I'm pretty sure) last night in a private concert and it was quite a pleasant little instrument.

[silverwoodpianos]

Hey, yeah, thanks for that, silverwood. I'll look one of those out some time and have a play. It'd be good to be able to recommend something small with a bit of enthusiasm one day!

Hello Mr. Black,

The instructor at this private school tried a lot of instruments out. She then attended the dealer where the Ritmueller was located. Played for about 30 minutes and signed the cheque.

I walked around the store while she was playing. The hammer set makes the new instrument a little soft and muddy in the bass; much like a new RX2…….

Soon to brighten up though with regular use……Renner (Blues)hammer set I believe…..

[silverwoodpianos]

Yes, Mr. Silverwood. Thanks for that.
Unfortunately, too many people don't realize that the Asians (China in particular)are really getting their act together concerning musical instruments. Pearl River sounds like a corny and cheap name and is easily dismissed before the research is applied. Folks are doing themselves a disservice by not checking these instruments out. Sure, by comparison to the big German and American names, there will be the naysayers, but there is a whole lot of piano there for the hard earned.

  I do a lot of research on stringed instruments too since my multitalented daughter plays the cello as well as the piano. There are some good quality instruments there too. There are a lot of international makers setting up shop in Asia and actually teaching them how to do it right. Still a lot of fine resources way up in the mountains too. It starts with good wood.

Hello Curtis,

 The Chinese have made it very apparent that they would like to learn this business. So either one works with them or they will go and purchase the build technology from someone else.
Germany has realized this and now is selling their design technology to the Chinese as well as their manufacturing expertise over there.

I recall the early Japanese instruments landing here in the early 60’s, and then later the early Korean instruments in the 80’s. most of which had design problems to begin with, much like the early Chinese pianos. 

I believe what has happened is that the entire piano industry from the manufacturers/ dealerships to the player/ technicians have underestimated the learning capabilities of the Chinese worker.

[keys60]

So true, but there are a few of the old US and NY companies labels now made in China that I still wouldn't touch. Baby grands for under 5K with shaky legs, muddy actions (tones decent in a few) and sub par craftsmanship. And on the flip side, some are just really  decent instruments.