Could some rate Chopins waltzws (difficulty)?

[pseudopianist]

I would like to know which waltzes would be possible for me to play.

Does anyone have list or know somewhat which grade they are? I would really ppreciate it.  


<3 Pogie

[bernhard]

Here we go:

(Please, bear in mind that difficulty is often subjective. All grades are ABRSM)

Grade 4/5:

No. 17 (Am)
No. 18 (Eb)

Grade 6:

No. 3 (Am, Op. 34 no. 2)
No. 10 (Bm, Op. Posth. 69 no. 2)
No. 12 (Fm, Op. Posth. 70 no. 2)
No. 14 (Ab)
No. 15 (E)

Grade 7:

No. 6 (Db, Op. 64 no. 1)
No. 7 (C#m, Op. 64 no. 2)
No. 8 (Ab, Op. 64 no. 3)
No. 9 (Ab, Op. Posth. 69 no. 1)
No. 13 (Db, Op. Posth. 70 no. 3)

Grade 8:

No. 1 (Eb, op. 18 )
No. 4 (F, Op. 34 no. 3)
No. 16 (Em)
No. 19 (Eb)

Grade 8+:

No. 2 (Ab, Op. 34 no. 1)
No. 5 (Ab, Op. 42)
No. 11 (Gb Op. Posth. 70 no. 1)

Best wishes,
Bernhard

[pseudopianist]

Thank you Bernhard <3  
Great, valses Eb and Gb are out of my league.  

[bernhard]

Thank you Bernhard <3  
Great, valses Eb and Gb are out of my league.  

You are welcome.

The difference between easy and impossible is practice.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[Ashley_Steinway]

I'm sorry, let me begin by saying this, because I am about to disagree with Berhard.
I do not think the Eb "Grandé Valse Brillianté" is Grade 4/5. I have learned this piece, and it is certainly not 4/5 by ABRSM standards, considering that I learned my Grade 5 exam pieces in a week, and this piece has taken approx. 3 weeks to complete.
But still, I love the piece. Lotsa fun to play.
*Sorry Bernhard.*

[Ashley_Steinway]

To add to the above: That's the Op.18, by the way, Eb.

[Slade]

where do you get all these difficulty information ? and mostly: why do you need them? one just has to listen to the music to tell if it's hard or not My teacher always told me that no  piece is actually difficult, playing something is 95 % work 5% talent. when i was like 7 y.o i was  looking a the  pathetic sonata, i just had to small hands

[pseudopianist]

I'm sorry, let me begin by saying this, because I am about to disagree with Berhard.
I do not think the Eb "Grandé Valse Brillianté" is Grade 4/5. I have learned this piece, and it is certainly not 4/5 by ABRSM standards, considering that I learned my Grade 5 exam pieces in a week, and this piece has taken approx. 3 weeks to complete.
But still, I love the piece. Lotsa fun to play.
*Sorry Bernhard.*

Opus 18 is grade 8. NO 18 is 4/5

" Grade 8:  

No. 1 (Eb, op. 18 ) "


Slade:
Some pieces can sound simple but really aren't so I think these are some good guideliness so I know what I am getting myself into.

[bernhard]

where do you get all these difficulty information ? and mostly: why do you need them? one just has to listen to the music to tell if it's hard or not My teacher always told me that no  piece is actually difficult, playing something is 95 % work 5% talent. when i was like 7 y.o i was  looking a the  pathetic sonata, i just had to small hands

I completely agree with you. Grading pieces is irrelevant. Any piece is either easy or impossible. Learning a piece is the process by which impossible becomes easy. Very often you hear the comment about a superlative pianist: “S/he makes it look so easy”. That’s because for him/her it is easy. Of course it was not always like that. Once upon a time it was equally impossible for him/her. But through good guidance and correct practice s/he managed to make it easy.

So I myself have little need for this information, but someone asked, and since I happen to know the answer I supplied it.

Having said that, there is a particular kind of information that is very valuable, and somehow related to the degree of difficulty of a piece, and that is a table of progressive difficulty. So, if you decide to learn all 32 Beethoven sonatas, it is very useful to have a progressive learning order so that one prepares for the next. Likewise, if you want to learn a certain amount of repertory it is useful to learn it from easy to difficult. Unfortunately, just knowing the grade of a piece does not necessarily allow one to infer this information.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[bernhard]

I'm sorry, let me begin by saying this, because I am about to disagree with Berhard.
I do not think the Eb "Grandé Valse Brillianté" is Grade 4/5. I have learned this piece, and it is certainly not 4/5 by ABRSM standards, considering that I learned my Grade 5 exam pieces in a week, and this piece has taken approx. 3 weeks to complete.
But still, I love the piece. Lotsa fun to play.
*Sorry Bernhard.*

Well Ashley, as you can see from Pseudopianist clarification above, we do not really disagree…

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[Ashley_Steinway]

Bernhard...
You know when you just want to bury your head in the sand...
Thanx for the clarification Pseudopianist.

[quasimodo]

Sorry to bump this old thread but it inspires me some general questions :

where do you get all these difficulty information ? and mostly: why do you need them? one just has to listen to the music to tell if it's hard or not

Is our hearing of a piece a reliable indication about its difficulty (works in both sides, you think it's easy or you think it's difficult just by listening to it) ?

The difference between easy and impossible is practice.

Grading pieces is irrelevant. Any piece is either easy or impossible. Learning a piece is the process by which impossible becomes easy.

Anyway, we all know that it is not recommended to tackle things which are at a very higher level than yours... But could someone (esp. Bernhard) clarify why it's not good ? I already have two answers :

- it will take you far more time to learn the piece than if you follow the recommended progression
- you might as well "never" finish the piece and that could be morally devastating

Are there other reasons, especially technical ?


Last question, suppose you learn a piece which in first place you thought to be playable, but as you advance in it, you realize it's more difficult than you initially thought. Should you give up ? If yes, when should you take this decision, what would indicate you that it's not worth continuing for the moment ?

[bernhard]

Is our hearing of a piece a reliable indication about its difficulty (works in both sides, you think it's easy or you think it's difficult just by listening to it) ?

I guess it would ultimately depend on one’s experience and imagination. I remember many years ago, listening to pieces, and then being totally surprised when looking at the score. The score looked like nothing I had imagined from the listening. Conversely I remember a time when by looking at a score I had no idea what the piece would sound like.
Sometimes a score may look terribly difficult, and may turn out to be relatively easy to play (e.g. Chopin’s Polonaise in A op. 40 no. 1) and vice –versa (Chopin prelude op. 28 no. 16).
Finally what may be difficult to one person may not be to for someone else.
Nowadays, I can spot straightaway (95% of the time at least) how difficult a piece/passage (that is, how much work and time it will need to turn into easy) will be for me. But it has not always been like that.

Anyway, we all know that it is not recommended to tackle things which are at a very higher level than yours... But could someone (esp. Bernhard) clarify why it's not good ? I already have two answers :

- it will take you far more time to learn the piece than if you follow the recommended progression
- you might as well "never" finish the piece and that could be morally devastating

Are there other reasons, especially technical ?

Yes. The main reason is time. But then you must bear in mind that my personal bias is towards the acquisition of repertory. I want to acquire a vast and varied repertory. And I want my students to achieve the same. Given that the piano repertory is huge –and musically superlative - at all levels of difficulty, it makes sense to spend one year learning several easy intermediate pieces and in the process acquire the technique/musicality to learn an advanced piece in a fraction of the time, then to struggle for a couple of years with an advanced piece.

If you know what you are doing, you will at the end of the two years learn the advanced piece either way, and acquire a superlative technique either way. The difference is that in one case you will only have your advanced piece to show at the end of two years, while in the other case you will have several other pieces in your repertory as well as the advanced piece. From the point of view of the process, acquiring repertory is also better because you get more motivated by learning quickly several pieces than by getting stuck in one single piece for a couple of years.

However all this changes if your agenda in different from mine. I have come across students who were not interested in a huge and varied repertory. They were interested in just one composer, or just a couple of pieces and they would die happily if they could master just those pieces. In that case, everything changes. It is then best to concentrate on the pieces the student is interested.

Again, if you know what you are doing, you will finish the piece eventually. In fact the only reason you may not finish it is for lack or persistence (some people do give up).

This is really all there is to it.

On the other hand, if you don’t know what you are doing (“I am learning the piano by myself since I cannot afford/do not want a teacher” – or if you have a teacher who does not know what s/he is doing), then of course there are all sorts of technical problems and possibility of injuries, etc., but this will accrue even if you are working in the easy repertory.

On a side note, I usually have the opposite problem: convincing a student that his/her next piece is not too difficult and that they will be able to manage it fine.

Last question, suppose you learn a piece which in first place you thought to be playable, but as you advance in it, you realize it's more difficult than you initially thought. Should you give up ? If yes, when should you take this decision, what would indicate you that it's not worth continuing for the moment ?

The reason to give up a piece should have nothing to do with difficulty. Difficulty can always be conquered if you know what you are doing – it may just take more time.

The two reasons to give up a piece (either forever or for the moment being) are:

1.   You realise you don’t know what you are doing, and that by proceeding the way you are proceeding you are not going to get anywhere. If that is the case, yes, you must drop the piece until you forget it (this will be the most effective way to deal with the bad habits acquired in learning it the wrong way). Meanwhile learn how to do it properly in other pieces (maybe even pieces of similar difficulties), and then go back to it in the future.

2.   You loose the interest in the piece to the point you cannot bear to listen to it (= burn out). If the piece is of inferior musical quality it is likely you will not want to ever go back to it. Or you may need a rest from it (a couple of years, perhaps) and then you may go back to it again with fresh ears.

(Of course both of these reasons may be triggered by the piece being too difficult)

Just an opinion, of course.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[quasimodo]

Oh, thank you very much Bernhard, it took me so long to discover you answered me on this.

[pseudopianist]

I remeber this thread

[alzado]

At risk of saying the wrong thing . . . apologies in advance.

Why not just take a collection of Chopin's waltzes and page through them?  Without playing a note, it should be obvious that some are out of your reach.

Select a few that seem attainable.  Play a few measures.  See what you think.

I really don't want to offend anyone, and have the greatest respect for many of the posters here, incl. Bernhard.

But this sort of posting seems to be on the order of -- "How do I pull on my socks?"  Or, "how do I pick up my fork and eat?"

And really, this will mean so much more if you do it yourself. 

This sort of feigned helplessness  . . . .   I can't buy it.

I'm sorry.  There.  I've probably offended someone. 

Hope you find a couple within your reach and really enjoy them.  I have.  I personally think the A-Minor is about the easiest.  Everyone plays it, anyway.

Regards------------

[llamaman]

Which a minor? The posthumous No. 19? I'm learning that right now, it's fairly simple, but getting it up to speed is rather tricky.

[jehangircama]

the E minor posth. is quite tricky as well.

[princessdecadence]

A useful list indeed.

I know this one isn't a waltz but what about his Nocturne in Eb op. 9 no. 2 (the um..."overplayed" one) - which grade would that be? Anyone know?

[bernhard]

A useful list indeed.

I know this one isn't a waltz but what about his Nocturne in Eb op. 9 no. 2 (the um..."overplayed" one) - which grade would that be? Anyone know?

Grade 7.

Have a look here for the grades for all Nocturnes:

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,3197.msg28098.html#msg28098
(Op. 25 no. 1 –  grades for all etudes and nocturnes)

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[princessdecadence]

Another useful list - I would think it's about Grade 7 as well.

Ta chuck!