Does "true" Impressionism require a slow tempo?

[m1469]

I will readily admit that my education with Impressionism (in any way) is quite small.  I know that two of the most known Impressionist composers are Debussy and Ravel, and that they lived and composed within the general timeframe of Impressionism.  However, not all of their works would necessarily be labeled as Impressionistic, right?  I mean, some of them, like some of Debussy's Preludes, perhaps, for example, don't have the same sort of atmospheric character and are perhaps more along the lines of past art.  

So, I got to thinking (after listening to Furtwaengler's Des pas sur la neige on the forum here:  https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=39397.msg440803#msg440803 ) ... does Impressionistic music require a slower tempo, in general?  Is that part of what helps to define it, or is there "true" Impressionistic music in faster tempos, too?  So, not just other musics composed by generally considered Impressionistic composers, but the actual character of the music itself.

[pianisten1989]

No. "True" impressionism doesn't need a slower tempo. It's to make an Impression that counts. If you're going to make an impression of a child playing, you can't play it slowly, can you?

[pianist1976]

A good starting point about Debussy and Ravel is that they disliked and disagreed a lot on the idea of their music being named "impressionist" as a parallelism to the painting tendency. Two names that modern musicologists look to accept as more appropriate are "symbolism" and "modernism".

There have been built many prejudices and stereotypes about the interpretation of their music, many of them absolutely wrong such as Debussy (and sometimes Ravel) must be always "atmospheric" in a way of no precise tempo, no bars, no nuances, never louder than mf, not releasing the pedal until the last bar... in order to suggest an "impression"... and surpassing the fact that they wrote their music with an extreme detail and precision, rhythmic and expressive. If Debussy or Ravel write "Vif", play it fast. If they write Lent, play it slow. If they write fff, play it fortissimo with 3 f, not an mf, and so on. And the pedal must be used carefully, the music must be understood, not veiled under a 50 bars pedal dirty noise.

does Impressionistic music require a slower tempo, in general?

In general, no. Only when the composer ask for it. Its absurd to play, for instance, Ravel's Scarbo, Debussy repeated notes Etude or "Pour le Piano" toccata slow.

[m1469]

Yes, okay, thank you.  I got an idea in my head, or rather a curiosity, I guess, and it's like I couldn't think anymore of anything that went against that curiosity.  Kind of like when you're thinking about buying a certain car and then you suddenly see them everywhere.  I didn't pour through the repertoire though and my experience and knowledge regarding it is quite limited as it is.  I was indeed thinking of it also as it relates to painting, and I guess of compositional technique.  The idea in painting, where literally the paint is blending into itself or as ideas (if you can see it that way) not having clearly defined lines.  I was thinking of harmonies in a similar way and started thinking that perhaps it required a slower tempo in general to give a certain affect or character, and not as though it's meant to be slow, per se, but that the affect to be achieved might require it.

I obviously have lots more to learn and plan to do so at some point.  It's helpful to learn that Debussy and Ravel disliked the comparison to painting and some of the thinking that went along with that.

[Bob]

Is this an impressionistic cakewalk?

It does slow down in the middle.

The toccata is clipping along.

Jardins.   Impressive kid.

Interesting, but I would say no.

[m1469]

Is this an impressionistic cakewalk?

It does slow down in the middle.

Well, this is an example though of what to me sounds not actually Impressionistic ... haha, but rather a piece composed by somebody who lived in what was called the Impressionstic era.  I guess my head won't let it alone.  I mean, there are these jazz and even modern elements to it (reminds me a little of Shostakovich, even though Debussy was first).  And, in form it seems Romantic(ish).  The "lines" in articulation seem even Baroque.  This is so much different from something like "La cathédrale engloutie".  My ear hears that as Impressionistic.  I will listen to the others.

[m1469]

The toccata is clipping along.

haha ... well, I've obviously got living stereotypes in my head.  Though the harmonies in spots I can hear as related to what my head would call impressionistic, the tempo, articulation and sense of drive remind me of other music.


Same with the last one (though that reminds me more of modernism) .

[ted]

Our own quantum, on this forum, it seems to me, is a superb natural impressionist. "Attack of the Flies", "March to School" - brilliantly executed impressions. The first requirement is surely that the sound stands alone as transporting abstract music aside from its programme. In other words if the listener did not know the prescribed association the music would still have intrinsic power to activate the imagination. Secondly, an impression is best to avoid overly direct imitation of ambient sound lest it become twee or trite. Thirdly, any impression or programme which is not, at least in some sense, independent of time, runs the risk of becoming archaic. For me, piano pieces such as Mazeppa and Wild Chase - wonderful works of course - have prescribed impressions such as horses dropping dead from exhaustion, demons in hell and so on,  which risk turning the modern listener off altogether either because of the unfamiliar or through the hopelessly old-fashioned.

The whole business of forming impressions, labels and associations, in some ways is more wisely the strictly private affair of the personal listening mind. Does anybody really still think that Chopin 25/11 is a literal description of the weather ? It is easy to find more examples of wonderful piano pieces which have become hamstrung by associations.

Most of Debussy's associations are still more or less valid because he chose pictures which have a universal and long-lasting relevance - gardens in the rain, flaxen haired girls and so on. We can understand these because we know what a garden in the rain feels like and what a flaxen haired girl might look like. Or the other way around for those racier of the soil. They are not going to become obsolete in a hurry.  

As has been pointed out, the answer to m1469's question is "no". However, the general nature of musical impressionism and the question of validity of its transference from creator to listener, is by no means as clear-cut.

[omar_roy]

Pianist1976 makes a very important point in bringing up the subject of the actual score.

Many pianists make the mistake of learning a piece and forming an interpretation based on certain biases of the period or preconceived notions of what they think it should sound like.  We've all been guilty of it at some point, and it's really just part of growing as a musician.

The simplest, yet most important thing, that we often forget to do is just look at the bloody score!  Many of the answers to our questions are there already!

So, like pianist1976 said, if the composer wrote fff, play fff!  If they wrote prestissimo, play fast!

[Bob]

Impressionism, although I'm thinking paintings here, does tend to look at nature or someone sitting, etc., i.e. doing something that doesn't involve a lot of movement.  So it would be slower.  Flowers.  A sunset.  Water.  They're not moving very fast.  Just a random thought.

[ch101]

it is about the image that the music prevails that counts

[jazznice]

I admire your interest in music played upon the piano, and especially the music of Debussy.Yet to understand the meaning of the term impressionism. it might be worthwhile reading a little on that era, the philosophy, and also look at some of the artists of the day [Monet, Manet, Cezanne}. Wow . . . I believe that such an art form, impressionism, somewhat goes beyond a frame. I think of a frame that holds a picture/image into place, holding it , rigid. Is music of impressionism and Debussy symbolical of going outside the frame? The frame here in music could  amount to rules; I think you would be correct to change your mind once in a while, that is, play the music the way you feel at that moment in time,similar to when Monet painted a scene, imaged many times due to the light changing his perception of the object he was painting.
 
I adore the music of Debussy too [and Satie, Ravel,] !