Piracy

[djealnla]

Discuss. 

[ahinton]

Discuss. 

"The Sorabji Archive" is not expensive at all - or cheap - for the simple and sole reason that it is not being offered for sale, so it has no price tag.

Having gotten past that one (yawn), shall we now discuss piracy, which is, after all, the thread topic?

Best,

Alistair

[djealnla]

"The Sorabji Archive" is not expensive at all - or cheap - for the simple and sole reason that it is not being offered for sale, so it has no price tag.

Having gotten past that one (yawn), shall we now discuss piracy, which is, after all, the thread topic?

Best,

Alistair

If you want to. 

One of the common arguments used by pirates is that some people spend all of their money on music, and since they have utilized all the money they have free to buy CDs, they have the right to download as many as they please, since no "potential sales" are "evaporating". What do people here think of this argument?

[gyzzzmo]

My one and only argument is, is that music CD's and games are way overpriced. Most sheetmusic isnt, and thats why sheetmusic doesnt have much of a priracy problem.

[djealnla]

My one and only argument is, is that music CD's and games are way overpriced. Most sheetmusic isnt, and thats why sheetmusic doesnt have much of a priracy problem.

https://thepiratebay.org/torrent/4586505/Classical_Sheet_Music_A-Z__-__Composers_B

Hm...

[perfect_pitch]

Well... Would you consider IMSLP as a pirate source of sheet music???

[djealnla]

Well... Would you consider IMSLP as a pirate source of sheet music???

Of course not, but what does that have to do with this topic?

[retrouvailles]

There will always be people who will buy CDs without doing an ounce of piracy in their lives, so therefore there will always be an income for record companies, who don't give much back to the artists who created said artistic product anyways. Also, the RIAA has their hands too full with people pirating popular music and software to even begin to care about people who are pirating classical music, be it audio or sheetmusic. That said, pirating classical music is ok, much in the same way that drinking alcohol is ok. Just do it in moderation, and buy some CDs to counteract any mental guilt that you get from piracy.

[richard black]

My one and only argument is, is that music CD's and games are way overpriced. Most sheetmusic isnt, and thats why sheetmusic doesnt have much of a priracy problem.

And your justification for that wildly broad oversimplification is....? (besides the fact that your literacy is appalling)

[ahinton]

My one and only argument is, is that music CD's and games are way overpriced. Most sheetmusic isnt, and thats why sheetmusic doesnt have much of a priracy problem.

Given its spuriousness, lack of corroboration and sheer fatuity, it is perhaps just as well that it is your "one and only" argument, although I would be wary of dignifying it by describing it as an "argument", since it is a mere statement of opinion without any support.

Since another member here has rightly criticised the sloppiness of your presentation, I will translate your post as
My one and only argument is that music CDs and games are way overpriced whereas most sheet music is not, which is why the latter does not suffer from much from a piracy problem.
OK - so now let's unpick it.

To state that anything is "overpriced" is meaningless unless credible illustrations are put forward to demonstrate that it is the case and why it is the case. CDs (even those without apostrophes) are overpriced compared to what? What evidence do you have in terms of the total costs of producing the end product that you see on the record shop shelf? You certainly provide none. Those costs will, of course, vary immensely from one product to another, but they can and often do include (but are not necessarily limited to) artists' fees and expenses, royalties to composer/s (if the recorded material is in copyright), venue hire, instrument hire / tuner/technician fees (in the case of piano and organ recordings), transportation, recording equipment/consumables/peripherals, editing, marketing/PR and manufacture/artwork/printing - that's before the finished product goes to a distributor who charges and thence to a retailer who also charges; if the shelf price of a "full price" CD is therefore around £15-£16, who should be surprised? Have a think, for example, about the 3-CD boxed set of my String Quintet which involved almost three hours of music, six artists of the highest calibre, a splendid quality recording and an expensively produced CD booklet that runs to some 40 pages - the performance was prepared specially for the recording, so rehearsal costs had to be added to all the others; it retails at around £45, which doesn't sound a lot to me. In the case of CDs that sell in their tens or hundreds of thousands, those costs would likely be easier to absorb than in that of those that sell in their hundreds or thousands.

Likewise, you offer no evidence in support of your contention that most sheet music is not overpriced, so this holds no water either; again, to ascertain the extent to which sheet much is overpriced, underpriced or reasonably priced, you would need to examine and analyse the all costs involved in its production, distribution and retailing. Since The Sorabji Archive has been cited above, I can confirm that only our lowest priced items have increased in price since setup and that, as we produce mainly bound photocopied scores to order, our capital costs include reproducing and binding equipment and our running costs include shipping and all materials; most of our customers worldwide seem to be happy with our pricing, although we have occasionally in the past been notified of concerns about these from customers in US where all of the costs that we incur (other, perhaps, than shipping) would be much less than they are in UK.

What makes you think that sheet music is not subject to piracy? I can assure you that it is so, although to what extent I cannot tell you. What effect such piracy may have is uncertain; we do know for a fact that certain peopole and organisations have pirated certain items that we have supplied to others, but that has fortunately not discouraged others from purchasing the items that we supply directly from us, so the majority of people who want them are prepared to pay for it.

Best,

Alistair

[djealnla]

Given its spuriousness, lack of corroboration and sheer fatuity, it is perhaps just as well that it is your "one and only" argument, although I would be wary of dignifying it by describing it as an "argument", since it is a mere statement of opinion without any support.

Since another member here has rightly criticised the sloppiness of your presentation, I will translate your post as
My one and only argument is that music CDs and games are way overpriced whereas most sheet music is not, which is why the latter does not suffer from much from a piracy problem.
OK - so now let's unpick it.

To state that anything is "overpriced" is meaningless unless credible illustrations are put forward to demonstrate that it is the case and why it is the case. CDs (even those without apostrophes) are overpriced compared to what? What evidence do you have in terms of the total costs of producing the end product that you see on the record shop shelf? You certainly provide none. Those costs will, of course, vary immensely from one product to another, but they can and often do include (but are not necessarily limited to) artists' fees and expenses, royalties to composer/s (if the recorded material is in copyright), venue hire, instrument hire / tuner/technician fees (in the case of piano and organ recordings), transportation, recording equipment/consumables/peripherals, editing, marketing/PR and manufacture/artwork/printing - that's before the finished product goes to a distributor who charges and thence to a retailer who also charges; if the shelf price of a "full price" CD is therefore around £15-£16, who should be surprised? Have a think, for example, about the 3-CD boxed set of my String Quintet which involved almost three hours of music, six artists of the highest calibre, a splendid quality recording and an expensively produced CD booklet that runs to some 40 pages - the performance was prepared specially for the recording, so rehearsal costs had to be added to all the others; it retails at around £45, which doesn't sound a lot to me. In the case of CDs that sell in their tens or hundreds of thousands, those costs would likely be easier to absorb than in that of those that sell in their hundreds or thousands.

Likewise, you offer no evidence in support of your contention that most sheet music is not overpriced, so this holds no water either; again, to ascertain the extent to which sheet much is overpriced, underpriced or reasonably priced, you would need to examine and analyse the all costs involved in its production, distribution and retailing. Since The Sorabji Archive has been cited above, I can confirm that only our lowest priced items have increased in price since setup and that, as we produce mainly bound photocopied scores to order, our capital costs include reproducing and binding equipment and our running costs include shipping and all materials; most of our customers worldwide seem to be happy with our pricing, although we have occasionally in the past been notified of concerns about these from customers in US where all of the costs that we incur (other, perhaps, than shipping) would be much less than they are in UK.

What makes you think that sheet music is not subject to piracy? I can assure you that it is so, although to what extent I cannot tell you. What effect such piracy may have is uncertain; we do know for a fact that certain peopole and organisations have pirated certain items that we have supplied to others, but that has fortunately not discouraged others from purchasing the items that we supply directly from us, so the majority of people who want them are prepared to pay for it.

Best,

Alistair

Good and very much to the point. 

However:

Since The Sorabji Archive has been cited above, I can confirm that only our lowest priced items have increased in price since setup

That's true, but paying over 300 USD from the 100 TE is just insane. If I decided to buy the scores of Mahler's complete Symphonies, I would spend roughly 150 USD. But then again, one could argue that Mahler gets sold in much larger quantities.

[richard black]

one could argue that Mahler gets sold in much larger quantities.

Which is very much to the point (and he's out of copyright). Likewise with recordings. Maybe £15 for a reissue of a million-selling pop album from the 1970s is expensive, but can the same be said of a niche interest classical orchestral disc which is unlikely to sell 10,000 units in the entire history of the world? Between those extremes is a full spectrum of cases, most of which at least start their existence as very unpredictable business propositions.

[ahinton]

paying over 300 USD from the 100 TE is just insane. If I decided to buy the scores of Mahler's complete Symphonies, I would spend roughly 150 USD. But then again, one could argue that Mahler gets sold in much larger quantities.

What's "insane" about it and on what basis? If, for example, the out-of-print publication of Opus Clavicembalisticum is acceptably priced at £60, why would you assume that the typeset edition of the 100TEs is "insane" at £245 (each including shipping within UK)? the score of the former contains 248 pages of landcape format A3 and that of the latter 876 of the same and has been edited from the ground up (which must have take at least a day to do...). The 100TEs are bound in two volumes and, with packaging, weigh in at some 5.5kg.

Best,

Alistair

[djealnla]

What's "insane" about it and on what basis? If, for example, the out-of-print publication of Opus Clavicembalisticum is acceptably priced at £60, why would you assume that the typeset edition of the 100TEs is "insane" at £245 (each including shipping within UK)? the score of the former contains 248 pages of landcape format A3 and that of the latter 876 of the same and has been edited from the ground up (which must have take at least a day to do...). The 100TEs are bound in two volumes and, with packaging, weigh in at some 5.5kg.

Best,

Alistair

I actually understand what you are saying, I was rather complaining about what I view as one of our current problems (in the music world). There's little interest in classical music and the investments involved are very high.

[gyzzzmo]

'Overpriced' does not have to mean that a product's production costs are only marginal compared to the selling price. For me (and many with me) it means that the product is just not worth the price.


Btw I'm too lazy to post sites with proof of my statements, since it is just the internet and not a science project. Plus you blame me for not posting any evidence, while you dont bother either in your reply. Maybe thats why you never give a statement at all.

[ahinton]

I actually understand what you are saying, I was rather complaining about what I view as one of our current problems (in the music world). There's little interest in classical music and the investments involved are very high.

They can indeed be just that. However, one does not go into setting up something like The Sorabji Archive and make all of his work available to everyone, encouraging and distributing new editions of his work and all the rest of it for the sake of making a fortune and, in our current economically compromised times, things are tough for many people, not least those who do the kind of thing that I do. There is actually a great deal of interest in "classical music", but only from a small minority of people.  I do not expect to sell thousands of copies of the score of 100TEs daily (nor do I do so), but at least the work is there for anyone who wants it, just as all the other scores are. I'm sure that you understand that the high price of some of the scores (especially this one) is due to their sheer size.

Best,

Alistair

[djealnla]

I'm sure that you understand that the high price of some of the scores (especially this one) is due to their sheer size.

Incidentally, this prompts me to ask another question: Why is there such a difference between the length of the edition of the 100 TE and that of the manuscript? No other Sorabji score "suffers" from that kind of huge gap.

[littletune]

Yo ho, yo ho a pirate's life for me!
We're devils and black sheep and really bad eggs, drink up me 'earties yo ho!
 

[ahinton]

'Overpriced' does not have to mean that a product's production costs are only marginal compared to the selling price. For me (and many with me) it means that the product is just not worth the price.

Wrong. "Overpriced" in general terms (and you have not indicated any other intended meaning for the term your post) means that the product concerned has a higher price tag than is necessary; your personal opinion as to what any item means to you and the price that you might accordingly wish to put on it for your own purposes is quite a different matter. If everyone who sold product of any kind had to price it in accordance with each individual's view as to what it might be worth to him/her, little if anything would ever be put up for sale. As a matter of interest (although I'm not sure why I should be interested), what price would you attach to this particular piece (inclusive of shipping) and why?

Btw I'm too lazy to post sites with proof of my statements, since it is just the internet and not a science project. Plus you blame me for not posting any evidence, while you dont bother either in your reply. Maybe thats why you never give a statement at all.

I provided ample evidence, particularly in respect of the money that has to be expended in the making of certain CDs; you gave none (and I did not ask for "sites" as evidence in any case) and you appear not to have read or understood any of mine. You have little need to admit to laziness, as what you write here (or rather what you omit to write) is its own evidence thereof.

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

Incidentally, this prompts me to ask another question: Why is there such a difference between the length of the edition of the 100 TE and that of the manuscript? No other Sorabji score "suffers" from that kind of huge gap.

The page count differences vary considerably from work to work, depending on the extent to which the ms. is cramped.

Best,

Alistair

[richard black]

The Sorabji TEs run to _876_ big pages at £245? Do you realise how cheap that is? Against, for instance, the vocal score of Strauss' 'Elektra', 225 pages for £65 - in print for about 100 years and must have sold thousands of copies, won't be out of copyright for another 14 years. And it's printed on much smaller paper than A3.

Just because T-shirts and stereos and paperback romances are made in the millions in China by child labour and sold for pennies, everyone expects everything to be practically given away. Shut up complaining awreddy! And if you happen not to be interested in buying Sorabji scores, tell someone who could care less. I don't bore you by wittering on about things I don't want to spend money on.

[djealnla]

The Sorabji TEs run to _876_ big pages at £245? Do you realise how cheap that is? Against, for instance, the vocal score of Strauss' 'Elektra', 225 pages for £65 - in print for about 100 years and must have sold thousands of copies, won't be out of copyright for another 14 years. And it's printed on much smaller paper than A3.

Just because T-shirts and stereos and paperback romances are made in the millions in China by child labour and sold for pennies, everyone expects everything to be practically given away. Shut up complaining awreddy! And if you happen not to be interested in buying Sorabji scores, tell someone who could care less. I don't bore you by wittering on about things I don't want to spend money on.

Who said I'm not annoyed by the price of the Strauss score?

Also, the aggressive tone of your post was completely unnecessary. I'm not a millionaire and can't afford to buy a large Sorabji score; if you're not interested in reading about that, then feel free to leave this conversation, for nobody is forcing you to feel bored.

[thalbergmad]

paying over 300 USD from the 100 TE is just insane.

As an example, if you were purchasing a copy of said TE from a Library such as the Bodlean or British Library, the costs would be greater and you would only be getting loose sheets of photocopy paper.

I think Alistair's prices are very reasonable. I work for a printer and should he ever ask me to print 876 pages bound in 2 volumes, my price to him would be about the same as his price to you, so he ain't making millions out of doing this.

Thal

[djealnla]

I think Alistair's prices are very reasonable.

Didn't you read my post? I agreed with Alistair on the issue of cost, but that does not alter the fact that it is a lot of money and that large investments are required if one enjoys contemporary music. Additionally, Sorabji is just one of tons of 20th century composers whose work I'd like to check out in-depth someday.

[thalbergmad]

Didn't you read my post?

errrrr no.

Thal

[ahinton]

The Sorabji TEs run to _876_ big pages at £245? Do you realise how cheap that is? Against, for instance, the vocal score of Strauss' 'Elektra', 225 pages for £65 - in print for about 100 years and must have sold thousands of copies, won't be out of copyright for another 14 years. And it's printed on much smaller paper than A3.

Just because T-shirts and stereos and paperback romances are made in the millions in China by child labour and sold for pennies, everyone expects everything to be practically given away. Shut up complaining awreddy! And if you happen not to be interested in buying Sorabji scores, tell someone who could care less. I don't bore you by wittering on about things I don't want to spend money on.

Thank you kindly, sir!

I do, of course, realise that £245 (+ airmailing if it's going outside UK) is a large investment and that the score concerned is an expensive - but then, as you say, it's a rather large score! I'd have thought that this was obvious; it is to you, Thal and others but perhaps not to everyone!

Actually, I think that I'm correct is saying that the Strauss enters the public domain in just under 9 years' time...

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

As an example, if you were purchasing a copy of said TE from a Library such as the Bodlean or British Library, the costs would be greater and you would only be getting loose sheets of photocopy paper.

I think Alistair's prices are very reasonable. I work for a printer and should he ever ask me to print 876 pages bound in 2 volumes, my price to him would be about the same as his price to you, so he ain't making millions out of doing this.

When I set up the archive back in the 1980s, I looked into the prices charges by those very two organisations. BL were then charging £0.23 per page for A3 photocopies that you make yourself on one of their machines - and this was a quarter century ago! I suspect that it would be at least £0.75 now. At £0.23 per copy, taking along a copy of the score (at one's own expense) and spending many hours copying each page would have cost c.£205; At £0.75 per copy, it would work out at £667.50. What we supply in 2011 for just £245 involves the purchaser in no time and money visiting a library and making the copies and ensures that he/she receives the whole piece in pristine condition, ring-bound between hard card covers in secure packaging, delivered to his/her address at our expense (albeit with appropriate airmailing supplementary charges added for mailing outside UK). All I'm still waiting for is to be told what's "insane" about that!

Not making millions? You bet! In fact, I'm down to my last Lear jet, southern French château and fleet of Aston Martins already, I'll have you know!

Best,

Alistair

[djealnla]

All I'm still waiting for is to be told what's "insane" about that!

It's insane when the salaries of us mere mortals are considered.

Do you want me to post a list of composers whose oeuvres I'd like to own, just to show you my point?

[djealnla]

Actually, I think that I'm correct is saying that the Strauss enters the public domain in just under 9 years' time...

As does Skalkottas, I believe. And Schoenberg is not that far away, thank God (and Rachmaninoff only a few months, in fact).

I forgot Medtner, shame on me!

[djealnla]

I'm actually tempted to believe that the life + 70 years copyright laws are, to a large extent, responsible for the lack of dissemination of 20th century classical music. People might want to see some scores themselves, just to find out more about the music, but since they often can't be found in libraries and cost a not inconsiderable amount of money, there's not much interest in them and claims like "Schoenberg is random notes" are the order of the day.

[richard black]

I'm actually tempted to believe that the life + 70 years copyright laws are, to a large extent, responsible for the lack of dissemination of 20th century classical music. .....

Not everyone is a whinging 'I deserve something for nothing' merchant like you.

[ahinton]

It's insane when the salaries of us mere mortals are considered.

Do you want me to post a list of composers whose oeuvres I'd like to own, just to show you my point?

No, there's absolutely no need for you to take the trouble to do that! - and it wouldn't prove a point beyond itself in any case.

I said that I accept that it's a lot of money for one score, but it's a lot of score! When Fredrik Ullén's six-CD survey of this work is complete, the entire recording will cost at least £90 - also a lot of money for a recording of one work - but then it's more than seven hours of music!

Some people seems to think that it's far too much to pay for something that they wouldn't want, the easy retort to which is that it would still be expensive to them even at 10% of the asking price; why pay even £10 for this if you don't want it?

Others - perhaps like yourself - would like to have it but feel that they cannot afford it; I might like to have a fancy sports car costing £500,000+ (I wouldn't, actually, but that's not the point), but the fact that I could not afford one does not necessarily make its price tag "insane".

What matters here is whether the £245 price tag for the 876 A3 landscape pages of the 100TE'ss score, inclusive of binding, packing and mailing, is reasonable for supply of the product itself, irrespective of the views of people who wouldn't want it anyway and regardless of its affordability or otherwise to those who do.

I hope that our prices (which begin at £8) are not only reasonable (as Thal believes them to be) but also proportionate to the amount of work and materials involved in the preparation and distribution of each item that we sell.

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

I'm actually tempted to believe that the life + 70 years copyright laws are, to a large extent, responsible for the lack of dissemination of 20th century classical music.

On what specific grounds do you hold this belief? Can you prove that this is the case and be able accordingly to distinguish it from music that is already in the public domain?

People might want to see some scores themselves, just to find out more about the music, but since they often can't be found in libraries and cost a not inconsiderable amount of money, there's not much interest in them and claims like "Schoenberg is random notes" are the order of the day.

Claims like that are obvious nonsense and easily provable as such without going to large amounts of expense, but what gives you the idea that copyright music can rarely be found in libraries? This is plainly untrue. In any case, would you expect to be charged less for a copy of the full score of Mahler's Eighth Symphony than for one of Schönberg's Gurrelieder purely because the one is in the public domain and the other isn't? I see little evidence that publishers charge any more for their publications of copyright music than they do for public domain music. As as example to support this point, remember that, in many European countries, the copyright term was increased from 50 to 70 years a couple of decades or more ago and this meant that certain music already in the public domain at that time suddenly came back into copyright for a period of up to 20 years; did you notice publishers of such composers' works suddenly upping their prices for score of them because of this? I certainly didn't!

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

Not everyone is a whinging 'I deserve something for nothing' merchant like you.

If he is indeed a "merchant", I hope that the prices for his wares are not unreasonable!

To be serious, though, you've put your finger right on the problem here. Current technology is wonderful and makes it so much easier to disseminate music in "sheet" form and recorded form than ever it was previously, but its downside has been the spawning of this very attitude that just because people can get something so easily they have a right to it for free, regardless of the costs of producing it and making it available. If everyone stole what I sell by these means and no one actually paid for any of it, I would go out of business, so there would be no more new editions. Fortunately, they don't.

Best,

Alistair

[djealnla]

Not everyone is a whinging 'I deserve something for nothing' merchant like you.

Excuse me?

Are you aware of the fact that I'm opposed to piracy?

No, you're not, so do us a favor and post accordingly. I'm discussing the likelihood of being a musician from a financial standpoint.

Are you aware of the hypocrisy of your post? What logical basis do you have for the position that life + 70 years is appropriate, but life + 40 years is not? Hm? Some people think that only life + eternity is adequate, and they believe you are a "whinging 'I deserve something for nothing' merchant", you foolish hypocrite.

[djealnla]

If he

She.

[djealnla]

On what specific grounds do you hold this belief? Can you prove that this is the case and be able accordingly to distinguish it from music that is already in the public domain?

Empirical evidence (based on my personal experience).

Claims like that are obvious nonsense and easily provable as such without going to large amounts of expense, but what gives you the idea that copyright music can rarely be found in libraries?

There are many composers whose works can't be found in libraries; I've checked some large ones and couldn't find scores by such contemporary music giants like Xenakis, Ligeti or Stockhausen.

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=33831.msg402657#msg402657

This is plainly untrue. In any case, would you expect to be charged less for a copy of the full score of Mahler's Eighth Symphony than for one of Schönberg's Gurrelieder purely because the one is in the public domain and the other isn't? I see little evidence that publishers charge any more for their publications of copyright music than they do for public domain music. As as example to support this point, remember that, in many European countries, the copyright term was increased from 50 to 70 years a couple of decades or more ago and this meant that certain music already in the public domain at that time suddenly came back into copyright for a period of up to 20 years; did you notice publishers of such composers' works suddenly upping their prices for score of them because of this? I certainly didn't!

I certainly wasn't alive back then, and in any case, the past is nothing but the past.

[djealnla]

I said that I accept that it's a lot of money for one score, but it's a lot of score! When Fredrik Ullén's six-CD survey of this work is complete, the entire recording will cost at least £90 - also a lot of money for a recording of one work - but then it's more than seven hours of music!

Fair enough, but I refer you to the fourth sentence of the reply #34.

If this is as far as this debate can get, then classical music has a bleak future. But I still practice and compose, while awaiting a better one.

[gep]

Of course new scores are expensive, but think how much work, time and effort go into producing (i.e. composing) a piece of music!
I do not know how libraries elsewhere work, but in The Netherlands all things in any public library are available in any other public library on request. It takes a bit of searching, but I have found several quite rare and expensive things (hiring the whole of Saint Francois d'Asise (full score) cost me €1. And getting it into my car a hernia...).
The life +70 years, ah well, what would you ragard sensible then, and why?

I'm actually tempted to believe that the life + 70 years copyright laws are, to a large extent, responsible for the lack of dissemination of 20th century classical music.

Nope. It is the effort it takes to perform the pieces and get an audience. If the score of "Pli selon pli" by Boulez would cost $1, would it get played more, do you think? Tell a venue manager you want to perform the next opera by Elliot Carter, and you get a closed door most times. Not because the score might be expensive. For what one I.M.A. Star conductor costs to come and hack an Iron Reprtoire item into the ground you can buy a cartload of new, modern scores. I.M.A. Star lasts one evening (if that), the scores a lifetime and more.

classical music has a bleak future

Considering the dropping level of society, that might be true. But not because of the prices of scores.

As for the prices asked by the Sorabji Archive, I have a few scores therefrom, and can only say that their prices would be reasonable if twice as high. Sure, the cost more than the Donald Duck magazine, but for the money they cost you get a whopper of a score that is much more easy to understand than the averag tax return form, much more fun to have and way, way cheaper...

all best,
gep

[ahinton]

She.

Thank you. Apologies. I should have written (as I usually do in such circumstances) "he/she".

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

What logical basis do you have for the position that life + 70 years is appropriate, but life + 40 years is not

Since this is supposedly a reply to Richard Black, where and in which post did he Black write that the takes this position? I didn't see it!

Some people think that only life + eternity is adequate

I have never encountered that view from any country that has intellectual property rights statutes; it is a pity that the 70-year rule is not universal, because a universal timescale would avoid a lot of doubt and confusion; however, that timescale is now increasingly applicable as it has been adopted by many countries.

There is a view that copyright should expire on the death of the originator, but it is clear that the post-death term adopted by most if not all countries is based on a recognition that the originator's work sometimes generates little or no royalty income until long after it has been created and that sometimes it generates none until after the originator's death.

There is and cannot be a "correct" term but, in deciding on one, the yardstick of a lengthy creative lifespan seems to me to be as good as any. I suppose that Elliott Carter's James Joyce setting My Love is in a light attire might yet get into the record books for the longest copyright period for a musical work (composed as it was in 1928), since it will not enter public domain until at least 2081, although it might have had to compete with such pieces as Leo Ornstein's Six Lyric Fancies of 1911 were it not for the fact that these have (I believe) already been placed in the public domain by their copyright owner (copyright owners have the right to do this if they so choose, of course, although it does not occur commonly) - it would not otherwise have entered public domain until 2072.

Best,

Alistair

[pianissimo123]

What kind of a question is that??

And..umm. no. Not a fan of piracy.

[gyzzzmo]

And your justification for that wildly broad oversimplification is....? (besides the fact that your literacy is appalling)

My justification is that i, and many people i know and what i have read of, think it is not worth paying 20 to 40 euro's for a CD of wich you only enjoy a few numbers.
The reason for this price is in most cases questionable since companies still make profits on those CD's after many discounts.

Piracy is a commonly used argument for lower sales while there is no real proof for this statement. There is proof though that sharing works as a promotion and thereby increasing its popularity. And as far as i know, fans still buy the cd's and people who illegally download wouldnt have bought the cd anyway.

As for gaming industry: Steam has proven that games are too expensive. Sales of quite some games have risen dramatically (sometimes over 1500% and gives more profit in a weekend than the initial release week) when they temporally gave a 50% discount.

As for sheetmusic, anybody here knows for sure that sheetmusic sales have gone down due to piracy?
Because my collegues and i still buy sheetmusic, because it is not that expensive and way more convenient than copies. The only difference in the last 10 years is that sheetmusic stores disappear since buying on the internet is cheaper and easier. So my personal experience is the reason for my statement that piracy isnt that much of an issue for sheetmusic.

Gyzzzmo