Consecutive Octaves with a slur: should I pedal?

[roblevy]

Dear all,

in the attached extract from a Beethoven bagatelle, the right hand is playing consecutive octaves, all of which I'm fingering 1-5.

The octaves are joined by a slur. I can't play consecutive octaves legato, so what did Beethoven intend here?

Should I use the pedal?

Your wisdom is appreciated! 

Best,
Rob Levy

[quantum]

Try to maintain the illusion of the slur.  Not every note needs to be or can be physically connected by finger legato.  The phrase just has to feel connected. 

Try experimenting with touches of pedal.  You don't need to push the pedal all the way down, just little touches can do the job. 

[stevebob]

I agree with quantum’s post, and I’d also point out that the identical marking is used for both slurs and phrases.  A slur line that encompasses just two notes can safely be assumed to be a slur, and one that spans several measures is clearly a phrase—but there’s no clear distinction between them when the number of notes spanned by the line is somewhere between the two extremes.

[nystul]

It probably wouldn't kill you to use 1-4 on a few carefully chosen octaves also.

[becky8898]

Hi Rob.  you asked what Beethoven intended. He very rarely cared about the difficulties a performer faced.  Even his simple works in alot of ways are not pianistic.  He always seemed to feel heres the music you figure out how to play it.  I wont bend my art to fit your technique.  In that way Chopin is easier.  Anyway a few things.  

I dont know your size hands but using the fourth finger on the black notes in the right hand can help.  Also  look at the music and see if there is anywhere the left hand can take the bottom note of the right hand octaves.  With Beethoven you have to be creative.  

Try and visualize your final tempo.  The faster you play the less of an issue the pedaling is.  The slower you play  the more important it becomes.

Of course pedaling is not all or nothing.  How hard you push the pedal determines alot.  

Lastly  - Take the passage you used to illustrtate.  The real problem here is not the right hand, its the left.  You want to keep those sliding harmonies as clear as you can.  Hope all this helps .

Cheers, Becky .

[perfect_pitch]

It probably wouldn't kill you to use 1-4 on a few carefully chosen octaves also.

Or even 1-3??? Technically by using 1-5, 1-4, and 1-3 you could probably make the top note of every octaves joined and legato, without the use of pedal.

[roblevy]

Wonderful! Thanks so much for all the wise and considered responses.

I'm particularly fascinated by the idea of playing an octave 1-3. I'm not sitting at my piano right now, but next time I am, you can be sure I'll be giving that a try...

As for the, let's say, more normal suggestion of mixing 1-5 and 1-4: I've never really understand what that's helpful for. It always seemed to me to be much simpler and more reliable just to lock the hand in position and play all the octaves 1-5 but thinking about Becky's post, this makes a lot of sense in this context. I'm always looking for ways to avoid using the pedal!

That said, perhaps my unwillingness to use the pedal comes from my all or nothing approach. I've never really thought of the pedal as being something to be pressed subtly. Thanks quantum for your nicely worded suggestion of "touches of pedal".

[tunneller]

1-3 is definitely worth learning.  I maybe took it a little bit too eagerly at first, so be sure to not overdo it. Stop before you get any hand pain!! It should mostly be acheivable with wrist action... But now I can do 1-3,1-4,1-5, whatever, essentially at my convenience: often very helpful for smooth playing.

But I have a different question related to the first post. It said that sometimes curved line should be a slur, and sometimes phrase. What is that all about?! This is a whole knew level for me to learn. Anyone got any good pointers?

I thought slur and legato were essentially synonymous. Where does "phrase" fit? E.g., maybe the inter-note connection runs::: phrase <  legato < slur < legatissimo

Thanks,

[quantum]

A phrase is like a sentence.

If one .... speaks in .... award ... phrases, coherency of the idea is lost or-can-even-become-a-run-on-sentence-that-just-keeps-going-and-going-and...

Slur generally applies to small groupings of notes.

A phrase generally applies to a larger group of notes that form a coherent unit.