I find it amazing how irrational some people can be. For instance, Wikipedia states the following:In 1969 she was put to a test by the British Broadcasting Corporation, who set her at a piano where she waited for the spirit of Liszt to appear to her. In due course she produced a piece, supposedly dictated by Liszt. Brown claimed the piece was too hard for her to play so another pianist was engaged to play it.My question is as follows: How did they know she didn't compose the piece prior to that test?
If one could communicate with the deceased, we could have a "Sorabji on Ian Pace" thread.
Too intellectual?
Oh btw, of possible interest is the Ian Pace quasi-fanclub I made. It's more of a joke, though:https://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=120265324650569
I wouldn't mind reference to a certain Scottish composer being removed from it
This would be a good idea, considering you already have your own fan club on facebook.
Yes, very amusing, I'm sure, although I cannot help but wonder what might have resulted had you devoted the time it took you to some piano practice instead
The whole five minutes?
Naw; he's very busy atm.
I wondered when something like that would appear. Let me guess: "I am currently too busy to write more, but I will write more in depth about it as soon as time permits". How close do I get?
No. It was more like I told him that he shouldn't respond if he didn't want to, and I guess he didn't want to.
Here are some of the things Ian Pace has stated about K. S. Sorabji, his music and his fans in the past (not quoted verbatim):"Sorabji's music expresses extremely misogynistic sentiments.""Sorabji's music is obsessed with itself.""Sorabji's compositional techniques are rudimentary and require no talent.""Sorabji sympathized with the racial theories of the Nazis.""There's always a right wing clique around that guy [Sorabji]."Discuss.
I don't know who you are, but I know you're not Ian Pace, so don't speak for Ian Pace. At the outset you mark your quoted questions exactly not verbatim and even if they were you have no right really to quote Mr. Pace out of context.
Mr. Pace is a true musician and thinker and this treatment doesn't do him—or anyone—justice, even if it's a topic on which I disagree with him.
So basically, shut up.
I think it's pretty clear that the purpose of this thread was to entice. The cadence of the responses only confirms this, really. This all is 10,000 miles removed from sober discourse. Can't we stop doing this, please? Display some damn intellectual integrity for heaven's sake. Or, at the very least, for Alistair's sake.
Everyone knows. No one cares. Chris Rice is a cartoon pornographer and nobody wants to support his enterprises. I encourage Tellef to release on a label other than Altarus.Best,Ry
Alistair, let's get one thing straight. I contribute to the music community by providing Web space for many users on this forum and also by distributing recordings and videos and sheet music. You contribute nothing; you're an anti-social hyper-verbose profiteering dickhead. You don't give free PDFs of Sorabji's scores or distribute music or anything like that. You don't even start threads on this forum. You just submit edgewise misc. circumloquacious trash that's the textual equivalent of an optical "floater" or cataract.*** yourself,Ryan
He [Marc-André Hamelin] hasn't played it [Ligeti's music].
But then whether or not he wants to respond and whether or not he does respond surely makes little difference to what is available to consider in the absence of such response until and unless one and/or thje other might change, as we have already noted here.Best,Alistair
I don't know who you are, but I know you're not Ian Pace, so don't speak for Ian Pace.
Hamelin recently has started citing the number of people at Powell's NYC performance of Opus clavicembalisticum when asked about Sorabji.
However, I will go one step further in that I feel it's obvious that the original poster's motives are egocentric: the way in which this thread was proposed seems to have little reason other than to publicly state that the original poster is aware that such things have been said, and for some reason we should be vaguely impressed by this fact, as well as the fact that the person thinks about such things. Given how the pseudo-quotes were presented (in a totally biased and purposefully unflattering light), I also assume such forms a fallacious base by which to later attack them, which again serves no actual purpose.
First of all, what the hell is the point of this thread?
I don't know who you are, but I know you're not Ian Pace, so don't speak for Ian Pace. At the outset you mark your quoted questions exactly not verbatim and even if they were you have no right really to quote Mr. Pace out of context. Mr. Pace is a true musician and thinker and this treatment doesn't do him—or anyone—justice, even if it's a topic on which I disagree with him. So basically, shut up.
"race and music" is an extremely complicated matter. And I think it's pretty clear that Sorabji had some pretty pathetic and, let's say, "timely" views on the issue. Views, as a matter of fact, not entirely different from those of Nietzsche in his more sad "biologistic" moments. The 19th century had devils like Ernst Haeckel—think of a more seething, awful, ratty incarnation of Richard Dawkins—who espoused all sorts of crackpot theories of "vitality." The rhetoric of race and its various "vital" components was heavy in the late 19th century (there are tons of examples in Nietzsche's output) and coupled with the surging popularity of Darwin it's not surprising that Sorabji (who seemed to systematically half-learn almost everything that interested him) adopted a bastardized notion of race.
Barring unbelievable claims that his obsession with race was a product of "racial otherness" to protect him from xenophobic Englishmen (a view espoused in the album booklet of Powell's recording of "Fantasia Ispanica"), that's that.
Now, how does this come out in his music? Not at all, really.
As it stands and funny enough, one of his "racial" pieces was based on a false notion about his past; he thought he had Spanish in him—e.g., "Fantasia Ispanica".
So yeah, I think that shows how "credible" Sorabji's racial philosophy was. If you can even call it his. The world-historical ass that Sorabji was starts to reveal itself...
One should also think about whether or not Mr. Pace's opinion of Sorabji really matters that much. I don't, for example, care what Marc-André Hamelin thinks about Ligeti's music. He hasn't played it. And Alistair pointed out, Pace hasn't played Sorabji's music. Not that you need to play Sorabji's music to have an opinion of it, but I think there are other opinions to consider.
To be sure, as a person Sorabji seems pretty detestable to me: verbose, bourgeoise to a disgusting degree, solitary to the point of recklessness, intellectually dishonest.
but But Sorabji and Sorabji's music are two things (even if such tidy compartmentalization of people and their work seems a little sick to me). And I don't think there's any question that he had immense creative energy and contributes something interesting to piano music (even if we're still trying to figure out quite what that is).
I do wish Sorabji would have been a little more careful in his music. I mean this sincerely when I say it—had Sorabji been more careful about developing a solid compositional technique I think he'd easily be one of the greatest composers of the early 20th century. His style is inimitable. He had surging creative power, but yes in matters of technique he was haphazard for the most part. That's why—with Richard Barrett—I find myself attracted to moment's of Sorabji's music where (sometimes I wonder if not through luck) everything "just works." But the specious fugues, the "miscellaneous" harmony... it really is pretty ingratiating if you're trying to take the man even remotely seriously.
And all this confounded with his insane, pompous estimation of himself (comparing the through-composed "Opus clavicembalisticum" to Beethoven's Hammerklavier Sonata and Bach's "Well-Tempered Clavier") makes the stakes particularly high for him...
In absolutely no way does such a tautological and obvious statement conform to what was originally insinuated in response to my relaying of Ian Pace's failure (not that it's a failure, and I would consider it a failure on his part if he did bother to respond, considering the vacuity permeating this thread). Because I was in a position to be moderately helpful, given my friendship with Pace, I offered to join the thread in such a capacity and only in such a capacity; as you can see, I have almost entirely abstained from giving my own opinion on the insurmountable number of topics that have been brushed upon in this thread, most all of them in a hilariously superficial manner.
As well, given your admittance of such, it seems odd that such a large amount of conversation has nevertheless managed to go on. Frankly, my view of this thread is similar to Ryan's in that it serves no legitimate purpose, and pending Ian joining this forum and posting himself (which I can nearly guarantee he will not do) it continues to serve no purpose.
It is a fact that Sorabji had misogynistic views; whether they were as strong as one might infer from only being familiar with the documents that specifically deal with it doesn't detract from the fact that he was a misogynist. Qualifying that his music somehow has a misogynistic aspect to it is incredibly difficult to do, but I think it is intuitively obvious that there is a strong possibility of such, given that there are many things that one could point to in order to quasi-substantiate such a view. Can you empirically validate the statement? No, absolutely not. But if you look at it from a differantial (not a typo: talking about Derrida) point of view, an even stronger argument can be made for this belief. Because it's going to be impossible to "prove" it was or wasn't the case, discussing it in such a manner is stupid.
Sorabji's music is extremely self-reverential, in my opinion. I don't think very many people would disagree with this. It seems to live on in honor of itself, or its composer, as opposed to being pure art. This is not necessarily a bad thing and doesn't speak to Sorabji's skill as a composer, and can only qualify as a personal interpretation of Sorabji's output. Again, this is so abstract that talking about it in black and white terms is pointless.
Sorabji's compositional techniques are not "rudimentary", and they certainly didn't require "no talent". That statement is idiotic when standing alone. While I don't agree with Pace regarding its pervasiveness, I do also get the feeling that many sections of his works were written conveniently, in that form often came to dominate the music, regardless of how (in)commensurable they were. It often feels as though the music was already there, and then a superfluous haze of artificially infused chromaticism was violently shoved into the music against its will, often doing a disservice to the music itself. The Opus Clavicembalisticum is actually the first piece I would point to as an example of this, and I think it's highly unfortunate that the OC was burdened with more historical significance and notoriety than some of his other, larger works, which I think are much better. Again, I am not an end-all expert on Sorabji, but I am quite familiar with the majority of his typeset works (and even some that aren't), and I consider the OC to be the worst of the lot.
The statement regarding Sorabji sympathizing with Nazis looks ludicrous without the context that was later provided, but is accurate. Whether or not using the very instigatory word "Nazi" does a service to the point is at least questionable, but the argument is valid. He did place a heavy emphasis on racial origin, which was a view also shared by the Nazis. Using the word "Nazi" to describe Sorabji is inappropriate and appellate, but the argument stands. Just inflammatory wording that harkens to that which isn't appropriate.
Frankly, I don't know anything about the political or economic views of people who listen to Sorabji, but it is true that Sorabji himself had, how to put it lightly. . . tastes that are considered more coalescent with right wing ideology than left wing ideology. I find the topic impossible to address in a way that would adequately draw us to an answer regarding the voracity of the statement and I find it irrelevant to Sorabji's music. If I was under the impression that it permeated his music I would believe it to be apropos, but because I do not get the feeling his political views (unless you want to consider sexuality a "political view", which I don't) were expressed in his music, I find the topic pointless.
Frankly, Ian Pace is a terrifyingly smart person; I do not idolize him, as one might think, and disagree with him often (and let him know it in no more of a kind manner than I do anyone else on here), but he is without a doubt one of the smartest and most knowledgeable people in the world of music, based on my contact with him, so to harass him (and it is harassment, really) with these loaded questions on an issue he cares little about is just not something I'm very interested in; I was merely humoring the idiocy of this thread, and as opposed to how I normally deal with these sorts of situations, given just how much crap, and in how many directions it's being flung, I figured I would let other people just take a look at the intellectual rigor that went into this thread and let people make their own opinions.
Not that this is especially directed at you, Alistair, but you're just who I happen to be responding to. In fact, I'd even go so far as to say you were a casualty in this stupidity, your presence unfortunately seeming necessary given the subject being Sorabji. Although I'd have hoped, given the lack of context and explanation of these quotations, that you wouldn't have leaped at the opportunity to do a bit of slandering, not that you didn't express some reticence, but such reticence seemed in opposition to some things you did eventually decide to go ahead and state.
Pretty sure john11inch is just trolling again and he doesn't even know who Pace is.
Can't we stop doing this, please? Display some damn intellectual integrity for heaven's sake.
he thought he had Spanish in him
systematically half-learn
Sorabji himself had, how to put it lightly. . . tastes that are considered more coalescent with right wing ideology than left wing ideology. I find the topic impossible to address in a way that would adequately draw us to an answer regarding the voracity of the statement and I find it irrelevant to Sorabji's music. If I was under the impression that it permeated his music I would believe it to be apropos, but because I do not get the feeling his political views (unless you want to consider sexuality a "political view", which I don't) were expressed in his music,
Again, I am not an end-all expert on Sorabji, but I am quite familiar with the majority of his typeset works (and even some that aren't), and I consider the OC to be the worst of the lot.
I equate Mr. Pace's views of Sorabji's music with Justin Bieber's recent statements on abortion: WHO CARES?
Sorabji's music is extremely self-reverential, in my opinion.
The WHO cares? Not that surprising, frankly. Jokes aside, it's probably the first thing he has done that I have esteem for.
Didn't you mean to say "self-referential"?
Even if he did, it would be one of the more intersting typos, methinks
Well, more intersting than that one.
So you can't take - or even recognise - a joke, then? Clearly not! Ah, well...
I agree wholeheartedly with all that you say here (although I think that, by "voracity", you mean "veracity", unless once again there's an American spelling of which I am ignorant).
Jokes aside, it's probably the first thing he has done that I have esteem for.
No, you twat.
Do keep me posted on all the Justin Bieber news. I haven't had time to keep up with it myself.
Anyway, do you really think that there's any more mileage to be gotten from this thread, given Mr Pace's (a) general experiential distance from Sorabji and his music and (b) practical distance from direct participation in this discussion?
Y'r obd't s'v't'.—
What was his estimation--50 or so?
More likely there were 100 at the beginning and 25 by the end. That would have been entirely understandable.Many had died of old age, some of boredom and others had done the New York Marathon and decided to carry on running. One had bypass surgery during the concert and had time to recover and six had to leave because their Visa ran out during the last movement.Thal
Topic: Ian Pace on Sorabji 