I'm going to learn Rach 3! Am I crazy?

[pianopro181]

A "notable professor" who acts towards others with such a degree of childish contempt that they laugh in someone's face, even if what that someone is saying might be silly, should not be entrusted any students in their care, and hopefully retire from being a "notable professor" as soon as possible. That sort of toxic sh*t does not belong in music.

It’s a figure of speech my man.

[lelle]

It’s a figure of speech my man.

I see, still important to call this sort of stuff out.

As for it being impossible to learn in 3 months - at least as far as getting the notes down, it's not gonna be a musically masterful performance in that time - can you explain why you think it's so impossible?

I'm looking at an edition which is around 36 pages for the piano part. Assuming you had to dedicate a full working day to learning each page (8 hours), it would take about one month to study all pages. Of course, some pages might need more than that. But there are many pages that can be sight read or played in a basic version in an hour or two, given the player has a sufficiently refined technique, reading skills and approach to studying. That gives more hours to the hard pages. Let's add to that that you don't even have to play the difficult bits in full tempo the first month, you have two more whole months to work on the material.

Doesn't sound terribly unreasonable to me, assuming a skilled enough player. I have met some people in the piano world who can learn things frighteningly fast.

[pianopro181]

I see, still important to call this sort of stuff out.

As for it being impossible to learn in 3 months - at least as far as getting the notes down, it's not gonna be a musically masterful performance in that time - can you explain why you think it's so impossible?

I'm looking at an edition which is around 36 pages for the piano part. Assuming you had to dedicate a full working day to learning each page (8 hours), it would take about one month to study all pages. Of course, some pages might need more than that. But there are many pages that can be sight read or played in a basic version in an hour or two, given the player has a sufficiently refined technique, reading skills and approach to studying. That gives more hours to the hard pages. Let's add to that that you don't even have to play the difficult bits in full tempo the first month, you have two more whole months to work on the material.

Doesn't sound terribly unreasonable to me, assuming a skilled enough player. I have met some people in the piano world who can learn things frighteningly fast.

Well yeah, I’m talking about concert ready. And of course there are some insanely fast learners who could do it within let’s say 3-6 months but it is unusual and you’d still have to put in full work days.

[ronde_des_sylphes]

1-3 months for Rachmaninov 3. Yeah, ok buddy. Dunning Kruger. Speak to any notable professor about that they’ll laugh in your face.

I did, many years ago. Laughter wasn't the response I got.

[rachmaninoff_forever]

6 months for movement 1? If you learned it all at speed by memory in 6 months that’s impressive. Did you actually perform it?

Also, a lot of people would take 1-2 years to learn Rach 3 as it’s one of the greatest piano concertos and achievements for a pianist.

Are you sure you learned Rach 3? I’ve never heard someone call it a ‘song’ before that’s kind of sus, ngl.

The whole thing.  When I was in school my teacher made me learn and perform the second movement for studio class in 12 days from scratch.  I think I posted a recording of the first movement without orchestra accompaniment on here a couple years ago.  I’ve done it with two pianos maybe three or four times but it’s been hard finding an orchestra willing to do it as most of them would rather do rach 2 instead.

Also there’s nothing wrong with calling it a song.  There’s recordings of Horowitz and Yuja Wang using song and piece interchangeably

[rachmaninoff_forever]

Well yeah, I’m talking about concert ready. And of course there are some insanely fast learners who could do it within let’s say 3-6 months but it is unusual and you’d still have to put in full work days.

I personally know people who learned it in one month and performed it with orchestra in two.  Some people really are just built different like that

[pianopro181]

I personally know people who learned it in one month and performed it with orchestra in two.  Some people really are just built different like that

Yeah but it doesn’t necessarily make them any better technicians or interpreters. Just means they clearly have an insane work ethic.

[pianopro181]

I did, many years ago. Laughter wasn't the response I got.

Ok well good for you, you must have studied it 10 hours a day compared to let’s say 3 hours per day in 1 year with the same result… or who knows, maybe even better results for them having given such a masterful work the space it actually needs.

[rachmaninoff_forever]

Yeah but it doesn’t necessarily make them any better technicians or interpreters. Just means they clearly have an insane work ethic.

If means neither.  If anything it means they’re just efficient with their time and they know what they’re doing.  Nobody actually practices 8+ hours a day on one song for an extended period of time

[lostinidlewonder]

I don't even think the concerto is the most difficult work from Rach. I think the Sonata no 2 first edition, although shorter  is much more wicked! 3rd movement of the concerto is where the difficulty really lies.

And why do people care how long someone else takes to learn something? It's meaningless. Do you try to compete with them? For what purpose? Laymen would be much more impressed with some music they are familiar with than anything from Rach, so if you are going for impressing others Rach is not the way to go, nor classical music for that matter.

[lostinidlewonder]

1-3 months for Rachmaninov 3. Yeah, ok buddy. Dunning Kruger. Speak to any notable professor about that they’ll laugh in your face.

Of all members ronde is certainly not one to apply Dunning Kruger to! If you actually read his response about the timeline he did mention much experience with romantic repertoire which makes total sense and speaking from his very own experience (just browse his many works in this genre).

The more fine tuned your practice method is and a combination of talent, the faster you can get through works. Still no one will admit they utterly master a piece as far as they can go in short time, it takes many years to consolidate no matter how good you are.

[pianopro181]

I don't even think the concerto is the most difficult work from Rach. I think the Sonata no 2 first edition, although shorter  is much more wicked! 3rd movement of the concerto is where the difficulty really lies.

And why do people care how long someone else takes to learn something? It's meaningless. Do you try to compete with them? For what purpose? Laymen would be much more impressed with some music they are familiar with than anything from Rach, so if you are going for impressing others Rach is not the way to go, nor classical music for that matter.

Yeah I do agree with that and some people even find concerto 2 harder. Funnily enough with concerto 3 I find the 3rd movement easier than the 1st movement ‍♂️. And no, I’m not trying to compete with anyone. Like I said, I don’t think it even really matters whether you learn it in 3 months or 1 year at the end of the day. It’s just interesting to me

[lostinidlewonder]

Yeah I do agree with that and some people even find concerto 2 harder.

Maybe in an alien world it is totally not harder.

Funnily enough with concerto 3 I find the 3rd movement easier than the 1st movement

hmmm I can't understand why you would think that, the third movement is quite a bit more persistently challenging compared to the first movement which has a lot of easy parts relative to the rest of the work. We could present a chart of all the challenging and easier passages and compare, contrast and measure the frequency to determine what the difference there is, but I don't know if it is really worth the time to prove an obvious point. Of the handful of people I know that play the Rach 3 they all say the 3rd movement is the most difficult and also from my own experience I totally agree.

‍♂️. And no, I’m not trying to compete with anyone. Like I said, I don’t think it even really matters whether you learn it in 3 months or 1 year at the end of the day. It’s just interesting to me

Who cares how long it takes person X to learn piece Y, it either gives you a big head or depresses you, both are useless.

[frodo3]

Who cares how long it takes person X to learn piece Y, it either gives you a big head or depresses you, both are useless.

I totally agree when comparing yourself to others.  However, it is useful to have an idea of how long it will take for you to learn a piece or set of pieces when preparing for a recital or competition, etc.  Some pianists will ask others how long they took to learn a piece, but this is almost totally useless to getting an estimate of how long it will take you to learn a piece (or song as you like to say in jest  ).  The best way to know how long it will take you to learn a piece is to read through it many times, take a few notes and make the calculation yourself based on your past experience with similar works.

[pianopro181]

Maybe in an alien world it is totally not harder.
hmmm I can't understand why you would think that, the third movement is quite a bit more persistently challenging compared to the first movement which has a lot of easy parts relative to the rest of the work. We could present a chart of all the challenging and easier passages and compare, contrast and measure the frequency to determine what the difference there is, but I don't know if it is really worth the time to prove an obvious point. Of the handful of people I know that play the Rach 3 they all say the 3rd movement is the most difficult and also from my own experience I totally agree.
 Who cares how long it takes person X to learn piece Y, it either gives you a big head or depresses you, both are useless.

The two Piu Vivo’s in the first movement are as hard if not harder than anything in the third and then of course the Ossia, particularly towards the end is strenuous. The Moderato, although simple, is stressful because one duff note or bad phrasing and you risk mucking up an extremely important and beautiful section - (obviously not the end of the world). Also the 8va semi quaver passage leading towards the end of mvt1 unless simplified is awkward. In general, there are more exposed passages in the first movement I find and orchestrally much thinner, texturally speaking, thus more exposed and from an interpretation angle again just more involved I find. Movement 3 of course has its moments like the first 3 pages, the two Piu Mosso’s and the rhythmical challenges in the scherzando section but overall I find the continuity a lot more clear cut and refined. But that’s just me. Both movements are pretty tough. But I’m also just weird in the sense that I often find certain things known to be challenging not so challenging compared to others known for being less challenging.

[happy notes]

WOW!!  I can not believe that this post is just over a decade old!  If this person was 18, they must be roughly 28/29 by now!  How absolutely awesome it would be if he/she came here and gave us an update. I would really, really love to talk to them. Of course, I haven't been able to read all these posts but... did he/she end up learning Rach 3 at 18 years old ?? If so, how did it go??
I've seen that some of you didn't think it was too much of a good idea... well here's another one for you... I'm 17 years old and have been playing the piano for 10 years now. I'm above grade 8 standard (just took my diploma with ABRSM, the exam being DipABRSM) and would like to play something challenging and enjoyable. I heard the Rach 3 concerto not too long ago and I also think it's revolutionary and I'd love to be able to play it!! I feel very much the same as 'animae' (the person who started this post). There is something daring me to learn this piece, but should I attempt it ??  I'm not sure if I have large hands, but I've been told I have long fingers! lol

[rachmaninoff_forever]

WOW!!  I can not believe that this post is just over a decade old!  If this person was 18, they must be roughly 28/29 by now!  How absolutely awesome it would be if he/she came here and gave us an update. I would really, really love to talk to them. Of course, I haven't been able to read all these posts but... did he/she end up learning Rach 3 at 18 years old ?? If so, how did it go??
I've seen that some of you didn't think it was too much of a good idea... well here's another one for you... I'm 17 years old and have been playing the piano for 10 years now. I'm above grade 8 standard (just took my diploma with ABRSM, the exam being DipABRSM) and would like to play something challenging and enjoyable. I heard the Rach 3 concerto not too long ago and I also think it's revolutionary and I'd love to be able to play it!! I feel very much the same as 'animae' (the person who started this post). There is something daring me to learn this piece, but should I attempt it ??  I'm not sure if I have large hands, but I've been told I have long fingers! lol

You don’t need large hands to play Rachmaninoff lol idk why everyone says that.  Almost the whole concerto fits in an octave. 

[pianopro181]

You don’t need large hands to play Rachmaninoff lol idk why everyone says that.  Almost the whole concerto fits in an octave.

Lol so true, there are only a few bits which can easily be simplified

[pianopro181]

WOW!!  I can not believe that this post is just over a decade old!  If this person was 18, they must be roughly 28/29 by now!  How absolutely awesome it would be if he/she came here and gave us an update. I would really, really love to talk to them. Of course, I haven't been able to read all these posts but... did he/she end up learning Rach 3 at 18 years old ?? If so, how did it go??
I've seen that some of you didn't think it was too much of a good idea... well here's another one for you... I'm 17 years old and have been playing the piano for 10 years now. I'm above grade 8 standard (just took my diploma with ABRSM, the exam being DipABRSM) and would like to play something challenging and enjoyable. I heard the Rach 3 concerto not too long ago and I also think it's revolutionary and I'd love to be able to play it!! I feel very much the same as 'animae' (the person who started this post). There is something daring me to learn this piece, but should I attempt it ??  I'm not sure if I have large hands, but I've been told I have long fingers! lol

Yeah, firstly large hands are irrelevant. Secondly, there’s no harm in looking at it and maybe even learning some passages. But if you haven’t got experience in performing large works and challenging etudes in exams, concerts, recordings, maybe competitions, masterclasses, assessments etc.. then I’d hold on to the thought of learning it until you have. You need experience and also a deep enough knowledge of Rach otherwise you won’t be doing it or yourself justice. You’re only 17, you still have time to gain the experience required.

[happy notes]

Yeah, firstly large hands are irrelevant. Secondly, there’s no harm in looking at it and maybe even learning some passages. But if you haven’t got experience in performing large works and challenging etudes in exams, concerts, recordings, maybe competitions, masterclasses, assessments etc.. then I’d hold on to the thought of learning it until you have. You need experience and also a deep enough knowledge of Rach otherwise you won’t be doing it or yourself justice. You’re only 17, you still have time to gain the experience required.

Well, for my diploma exam I did a piece by Rachy. My performance was roughly 35 mins long and I performed it from memory which was fine. I pick up memorisation quite quickly if that helps. But, I guess you're right... I have time to gain experience. (That is if I'm actually guaranteed a huge amount of time. We never know how long we have left and I want to make the most of every moment.)   

[rachmaninoff_forever]

hmmm I can't understand why you would think that, the third movement is quite a bit more persistently challenging compared to the first movement which has a lot of easy parts relative to the rest of the work. We could present a chart of all the challenging and easier passages and compare, contrast and measure the frequency to determine what the difference there is, but I don't know if it is really worth the time to prove an obvious point. Of the handful of people I know that play the Rach 3 they all say the 3rd movement is the most difficult and also from my own experience I totally agree.

The last movement is like not even in the same ballpark as the first two movements. Idk how a movement where you don’t have to interact with orchestra for 3 minutes is even comparable to the third movement

[pianopro181]

The last movement is like not even in the same ballpark as the first two movements. Idk how a movement where you don’t have to interact with orchestra for 3 minutes is even comparable to the third movement

I think it is in the first movement to be honest, not the second. I’d personally say movement 1 is as hard as movement 3 and in some parts even tricker for the reasons I stated above. But maybe I’m just weird like that lol

[perfect_pitch]

I think it is in the first movement to be honest, not the second. I’d personally say movement 1 is as hard as movement 3 and in some parts even tricker for the reasons I stated above. But maybe I’m just weird like that lol

Nah - Rachmaninoff_forever got it right. The first two movements are hard... the third is just a pregnant dog to get right. I'm not struggling with the first two movements, but the large C Major and Bb Major chord jumping in the hands (you know the bit I'm talking about) is giving me a little grief, same with one of the last sections before the last cadenza like line in the piece.

Movement 1 is easier compared to the 3rd because the passages can be fingered easier than the 3rd.

[pianopro181]

Nah - Rachmaninoff_forever got it right. The first two movements are hard... the third is just a pregnant dog to get right. I'm not struggling with the first two movements, but the large C Major and Bb Major chord jumping in the hands (you know the bit I'm talking about) is giving me a little grief, same with one of the last sections before the last cadenza like line in the piece.

Movement 1 is easier compared to the 3rd because the passages can be fingered easier than the 3rd.

You’re referring to the ‘Piu Mosso’s’ in C and then Bb in the final movement? They’re the hardest thing about it

[rachmaninoff_forever]

Nah - Rachmaninoff_forever got it right. The first two movements are hard... the third is just a pregnant dog to get right. I'm not struggling with the first two movements, but the large C Major and Bb Major chord jumping in the hands (you know the bit I'm talking about) is giving me a little grief, same with one of the last sections before the last cadenza like line in the piece.

Movement 1 is easier compared to the 3rd because the passages can be fingered easier than the 3rd.

Not to mention an easy passage in between every difficult section and there’s the three minute cadenza where you get a break from interacting with orchestra at all

[pianopro181]

Not to mention an easy passage in between every difficult section and there’s the three minute cadenza where you get a break from interacting with orchestra at all

Sure but arguably you’re also more exposed for that reason as you have less orchestra to ‘hide behind’. So many sections in movement 3 the orchestra overshadows the piano whereas in movement 1 that’s barely the case.

[rachmaninoff_forever]

Sure but arguably you’re also more exposed for that reason as you have less orchestra to ‘hide behind’. So many sections in movement 3 the orchestra overshadows the piano whereas in movement 1 that’s barely the case.

Hiding behind the orchestra just is bad ensemble skills lol you can’t ‘hide’ behind the orchestra in any part of rach 3 nor should you try to

[lostinidlewonder]

The two Piu Vivo’s in the first movement are as hard if not harder than anything in the third and then of course the Ossia, particularly towards the end is strenuous.

Still 3rd movement is the toughest challenge. I'm not interested enough to academically prove the case in the detail I described in my previous response. Just rattling off parts is not the way to do it, you need to actually show the evidence and juxtapose. It is however a known consensus amongst pianists who have played the concerto that the 3rd movement is the most challenging.

Idk how a movement where you don’t have to interact with orchestra for 3 minutes is even comparable to the third movement

Good point, solo skills are always a space for some freedom from synchronisation.

the third is just a pregnant dog to get right.

Movement 1 is easier compared to the 3rd because the passages can be fingered easier than the 3rd.

Agree, the fingering in that pregnant dog is messy business! 

[pianopro181]

Hiding behind the orchestra just is bad ensemble skills lol you can’t ‘hide’ behind the orchestra in any part of rach 3 nor should you try to

That’s not my point, the point is regardless of how well you’re playing it that will make it by nature more stressful. Hence why I put it in ‘quotation marks’. You’re more exposed in movement 1, period.

[pianopro181]

[pianopro181]

[rachmaninoff_forever]

That’s not my point, the point is regardless of how well you’re playing it that will make it, by nature, more stressful. Hence why I put it in ‘quotation marks’. You’re more exposed in movement 1 period.

It’s a piano concerto you’re in front of the whole orchestra you’re gonna be “exposed” no matter what.  Having a thinner orchestra part is like a non issue. 

What is an issue though is orchestra involvement.  In which case the waltz until the end requires more awareness and self adjustment/communication with orchestra than the first movement.

[pianopro181]

It’s a piano concerto you’re in front of the whole orchestra you’re gonna be “exposed” no matter what.  Having a thinner orchestra part is like a non issue. 

What is an issue though is orchestra involvement.  In which case the waltz until the end requires more awareness and self adjustment/communication with orchestra than the first movement.

Fair enough, though I still think movement 1 is pretty tough similarly to movement 3 and if relatively easier not by a huge amount. At least for me lol

[lostinidlewonder]

Fair enough, though I still think movement 1 is pretty tough similarly to movement 3 and if relatively easier not by a huge amount. At least for me lol

It's like saying the opening theme of fur Elise is harder than the middle section following it. Hardly anyone will agree but everyone can harvest their own peculiar marginalised perspectives, it just sounds off.

[pianopro181]

It's like saying the opening theme of fur Elise is harder than the middle section following it. Hardly anyone will agree but everyone can harvest their own peculiar marginalised perspectives, it just sounds off.

Lol that’s quite the comparison

[mjames]

I did, many years ago. Laughter wasn't the response I got.

My man. Love the youtube videos by the way. Feels like you ramped up your posting in the past few months 

You don’t need large hands to play Rachmaninoff lol idk why everyone says that.  Almost the whole concerto fits in an octave.

I feel like people who say that don't play piano at all and are just regurgitating (wrong) stereotypes. An averaged sized hand is more than enough for mostly everything in the standard repertoire.

[perfect_pitch]

An averaged sized hand is more than enough for mostly everything in the standard repertoire.

That is true, but I know it would be a sh*t load easier with bigger hands. That Bb and C Major Piu mosso section in the 3rd movement with those very large chunky chords are a bugger to stretch sometimes.

I can barely just reach a 10th in my RH, but it ain't comfortable and it's slow.

[cuberdrift]

You aren't crazy - everyone plays Rach 3, just not as good as the way Rach played it.