Chopin Etude Op. 10 No. 1

[utterlysneaky]

Ok this is an old recording of mine, in the sense that I recorded it onto my clavinova in 2005 if I remember correctly, and I wanted to make an mp3 out of it now to see what it sounds like.
This etude is allways a work under progress for me, so any constructive critiscism is welcome.
One thing I've allways tried to do with this etude is to make music out of it, not simply just play high speed arpeggios, so I'm aware my playing is not exactly following score. I'm contemplating playing this at a church recital due in two months here where I live, but I just don't know if I can get it back in shape until then, haven't touched this etude since last summer now..But all in all this was the second piece I started learning 16 years ago(call me crazy), so it's kinda "my etude" Maybe I should just start practising again....

[pianisten1989]

Hmm... I understand you try to make music, but don't overdo it. I don't think this is very musically played (I'm sure someone else might), I think it's kind of... If there is a possibility to make a  rubato in every second bar doesn't mean you should. Right now, you're laughing Chopin right in the face, and saying that you're better than he is. Some pieces are meant to be played with rubato, some are meant to be played very rhythmically. So rubato isn't always the way to make music. You can pick a few spots where you do slight rubato, but this is way to much.

And what's up with the accents? I don't see any pattern at all, but just some random notes trying to make a line.
Again, Chopin wrote his own accents, they are just fine!

[utterlysneaky]

Umm..Where on earth was I saying I would be better than Chopin, because I'm not seeing that anywhere in my post? Look like I said, this is a recording of me from 2005 ok..I most certainly wouldn't strive for this kind of playing should I decide to start practising this etude now. I realise there's a lot of rubato..but come on..I'm on a digital piano here.And I'm not a professional pianist.
And I'm certainly NOT about to record the Chopin Etudes for Grammofon either
But I do get your point, you are saying this is playing more me than Chopin? Maybe so, but hey Chopin's is the last face I would be laughing at..I've loved his music passionately all my life.

However, interpretatively speaking, this etude is very scarce on expressive markings(p,f,ff) compared to many other ones. This suggests to me that there are two correct ways of interpreting this etude. One of them is strictly score following, grandiose playing a la Pollini, where the scarcity of expressive markings suggest to keep producing the same strict grand a tempo sound. Nothing wrong with that.
The other way of seeing it, is DUE to the scarcity of expressive markings, the pianist is by that very fact encouraged to quite naturally fill that empty space with his "own" interpretation. It should of course be done within the confines of good taste.

In any case, this etude is so difficult and demanding, that the naked truth of it is, that one plays it any way one can.

[pianisten1989]

You aren't SAYING you are better than Chopin, but with your playing - you're playing like you know better. Either you like it or not, that's what you're doing.

And I'm not saying this because I want to be a brat. Some pianists on DG play, imo, are not nearly good enough for dg, while some pianists are really good, yet doesn't even have a contract with a label.

And please! Don't blame the piano.

This is the Audition room, people post here to get feedback, and I said what I thought about it. Most of the etudes are more or less about to play them straight through. Chopin knew how to write rubato, and expressivo, and stuff like that (and often wrote almost too many markings). Here, he hasn't.

But you are the pianist, play it however you like it.

[utterlysneaky]

"You aren't SAYING you are better than Chopin, but with your playing - you're playing like you know better. Either you like it or not, that's what you're doing."

How on earth could you possibly know what's inside my head? You must have some mp3 to brainwave device? Sorry but you don't know me.
Like I said, I play this etude the only way I can(and this is a question of technique for me). As a piece of music I love it so much I would rather play it in a personal manner than not playing it at all.
You might also consider the fact that Chopin himself(we are told by his pupils written testimony)
never once played the same piece in quite the same manner. Remember the score isn't the music, it's an approximation of the music. And the question of musicality is a diverse phenomena, IMHO. There's room for all sorts of flavors at the ice cream stand

[perfect_pitch]

Oh for the love of god man...

You're getting snippy because pianisten1989 told you to lighten up on the rubato???

Obviously your technical ability in this piece is very good... but don't try to make the piece into a showboat of emotion, it the music doesn't allow you to make much of it in the first place.

It's basically arpeggios... and if you try and make that into something that sounds more than it is - you're going to be labelled a 'over-acter' (but in terms of musical playing)...

Just try and keep the number of rubato moments for the key moments, instead of doing it every 10 seconds.

[becky8898]

Hi : im guessing since you recorded this in 2005 and your asking our opinion you might want to make some changes. So ill only say this.  This is an etude. Its a study first and formost.  Everything else is secondary to the study that this piece is attempting to teach you.  If your play in anyway  is in conflict with the etudes primary purpose then what your doing is not right.  It is so tempting with Chopin to try to and add more than the etude is asking. Hope that helps a little.

Cheers, Becky

[pianist1976]

You're getting snippy because pianisten1989 told you to lighten up on the rubato???

I'm not going to speak for utterlysneaky but if I was him I'd not be offended by a constructive criticism but for the way it's said. I certainly found some words of pianisten1989 offensive. "Right now, you're laughing Chopin right in the face, and saying that you're better than he is". Why? Were necessary those harsh sentences?

This is supposed to be a constructive place, while I do agree in the general complain about there is too much rubato there, I also think that are thousands of ways to say things.

Talking about the recording itself, everyone else already pointed my biggest complain about this interpretation so I have not much more to add in that sense. Utterlysneaky, you have a really good technical ability to play this etude, which is not easy at all, more amazing if we take in account that you said that you are an amateur. If I'd was you I'd try to climb one step up and become a full professional. I think that in a few months or years you can wipe some vices (I think you have a general one with tempo) and play very well the piano.

This is an etude. Its a study first and formost. Everything else is secondary to the study that this piece is attempting to teach you

 

Well, sorry but I disagree (not very much, only a bit) While it's true that it's an etude, I think that first and foremost this is a music piece. I think that every Chopin etude must be treated first as a poetic music work which have some technical/mechanical difficulties to overcome. For me this piece is a really interesting harmony exercise where Chopin tried to emulate the great J.S. Bach prelude in C major, but adapting the clavichord arpeggios to the new pedal huge romantic piano arpeggios. It's true that it has many difficulties that Chopin needed to work in order to improve his own technique but the final result must be a music work, not an exercise. But that's just my opinion.

If your play in anyway  is in conflict with the etudes primary purpose then what your doing is not right

I think that the key is equilibrium. Approaching the Etudes must be a fair equilibrium between the purely mechanical and the musical. We must conciliate both and trying to join both aspects and let help one to another. I think that doing it right must not suppose a conflict.

It is so tempting with Chopin to try to and add more than the etude is asking.

As Brendel said, you cannot make a work sound better than it is but you can try to expose it's best, it's qualities. While I disagree with the general view of utterlysneaky about this etude and generally agree with others opinion about the excess of rubato, I think that while respecting the score, the style, etc. there can be found many ways to express, even in an "exercise" like this (these were the first words of Chopin to describe it). But, I agree with all of you, the key to expressiveness in this etude is not the rubato but, in my humble opinion, the sound, polyphony (bass, arpeggios plus the accents marked by Chopin, you have now three voices   ) and the music direction guided by the absolutely magic and marvelous harmony (among other factors).

Just my two cents  

[utterlysneaky]

Thank you all for your input! I'll still maintain that as an advanced amateur(at the most), one plays this piece any way one can, or simply leave it unplayed. I'm soon 31 and I have a job that I love, so for me I made the decision long time ago not to pursue a professional musical career, I'm keeping piano playing and composing/improvising as advanced hobbies and I'm perfectly fine and happy with that. This etude I have played on and off(mostly on) for 16 years almost daily, that is how much I love it, and specifically first and foremost as a poetic music, secondary as etude.

Playing a certain piece for 16 years and more, well I'm not sure if everybody here can relate, but in itself that means, in order for my interest to remain for such an extended time, it is only natural that one would try different interpretational approaches to the music.

So trust me I am well aware of what the score says and how Pollini's rendering is supposedly the only correct way to tackle this etude. However not everyone has Pollini's technique and musicianship, which is evident from hundreds of other pianist recordings of this etude. No room for expressive rubato in this etude?? Boris Berezovsky's recording will tell you otherwise. So will Mei Ting Sun's fantastic Chopin Competition 2010 performance, who IMO has the best current day etude no.1 that I know of.

If everyone banged those bass-octaves, played perfect 196tempo throughout with Chopin's accents,  what would separate one performer from the next?? We'd all be bored and there would be no need for any other recording than Pollini's??! Just my two cents aswell..

Anyhow, I'm well aware that my playing is lacking in many aspects, there are probably lots of things I could try improving. I do welcome all sincere comments and tips for improvements to the performance. What I did not like is some 1989 dude telling me how I'm supposedly spitting in somebodys face and blabla bullshit like that. If your advice is "less rubato and stick with Chopin's accents" then keep it at that, ok buddy? No need to go all psycho-bubble about my persona which you don't know anyhow. Peace. Seriously.

[zeusje]

Hi utterlysneaky,

Thanks for uploading first of all. I think I would join the club on criticizing the rubato. Especially since you seem to have a fine technique to play the piece well. I also play this etude daily, it is one of the few pieces I have memorized actually, and it is great fun to be be engaged with. Pick it up again and play it on a regular piano and upload it here, I need to get me some proper recording equipment then I might upload mine as well, though I can now already say it won't be on 178 bpm. And I need to get rid of the hesitations when the black keys start to come into play in the middle.....

[pianisten1989]

Who cares if you're an amateur or not? Most of us are! And you can obviously play it well (It sounds good, once you don't do the rubato or the accents). But fine, if you want to do the "I'm an amateur"-card and blame everything on that.
We all have our things. Some pianists started playing very late, some are super nervous, some are even blind for crying out loud! So, either you go with your "I'm an amateur, and therefore I can't play this etude in a professional way"-talk

one plays this piece any way one can, or simply leave it unplayed

OR you can leave your excuses somewhere where it belongs and develop some as a pianist.
Now, I'm sorry if I insulted you. That's the way I am (Ha! See what I did there?), and you're very welcome to treat me the same way.

And who says anything about playing it in 197 bpm (or whatever it says) and banging octaves like a crazy person.
1. It's well known that most people aren't able to play Chopin's etude as fast as he wrote.
2. It says nothing about banging octaves. It says f, but that's for the right hand as well.

And I will really try not to sound harsh here...
If you want it to sound like a poetic piece don't play it like if it's a drunk drag queen.. no, sorry!
Uhm... Don't play it in a way that makes it on the.. No, I don't have any examples. But there are many ways playing poetic. And not all poems are seas of emotions. Some are just simply beautiful the way they are, because of it's simplicity.
There are other pieces (some waaay easier) that will allow you to play with a lot of rubato.

Don't buy strawberry jam if you want to repaint your walls - don't pick one of Chopin's least melodic and most virtuous pieces to sound poetic.

[pianist1976]

I'm soon 31 and I have a job that I love, so for me I made the decision long time ago not to pursue a professional musical career, I'm keeping piano playing and composing/improvising as advanced hobbies and I'm perfectly fine and happy with that.

That's wonderful! I think that one of the most difficult things to find in life (and undoubtedly one of the most pleasant) is a job we like and enjoy. I find also perfect that you have also one of the most delightful things humanity invented (if not the most...), that is music, as a hobby, and you are doing it very well.

I think that in our replies we all focused too much on the rubato and the technical side but none of us commented about the music it's inside in your interpretation. While I maintain my opinion about the excess of rubato (I meant "excess", not that mustn't be rubato at all), I think that there were some very good musical qualities.

So trust me I am well aware of what the score says and how Pollini's rendering is supposedly the only correct way to tackle this etude.

Well, I don't think so There are infinite ways to interpret this piece. To name a few I like, for example, Argerich, Ashkenazy, Rosenthal, Cortot, Pachman... everyone of them plays it absolutely different, and everyone of them likes me personally more than Pollini's (although it's, obviously, also great). I completely agree with you: I think that imagination can be used in this etude that many people in the conservatoires think it cannot be. I also think that it's a piece that is not as square as it looks.

No room for expressive rubato in this etude?? Boris Berezovsky's recording will tell you otherwise. So will Mei Ting Sun's fantastic Chopin Competition 2010 performance, who IMO has the best current day etude no.1 that I know of.

Of course there's room! But there's a difference between doing a rubato in almost every bar and giving a bit of space or remark a special place, as Ting and Berezovsky do. As a friendly advice, in my opinion, when a special license becomes a norm, stops being special and turns usual. It also may become in extreme cases (that's not your case!) as boring because there's no surprise, if you did it in bars 1,3,5 and 7, people now expects you'll do it again in 9, 11, 13 and so on.

If everyone banged those bass-octaves, played perfect 196tempo throughout with Chopin's accents,  what would separate one performer from the next??

Your personality, which you reflect at the piano and nobody can imitate and the differences of interpretation. You can do a different interpretation without the need to change the pulse. 

Except for the little issues, well done 

[birba]

I don't know how I got late to this posting.  After reading these discussions, I was really curious to hear it.  I have to say I liked it very very much.  You are one talented amateur.  So you did take some audacious liberties, but it was so musically played.  The direction of the arpeggios, the harmonic progression, the crystal clear touch -  I thoroughly enjoyed it.
You  might leave out a few of those rits, and I would end forte, etc but it convinced me nonetheless.
I've been going over the black key etude again (Becky inspired me!) and I take a big liberty at the end.  Since no one (not even becky!) can play those final octaves in time, I do a rallentando and diminuendo at the end just before the octaves - blatantly defying the maestro - then begin piano, underspeed, accellerando and big crescendo as I go down.  It's a wonderful effect.  But I certainly don't think I'm better then Chopin!!!  I really don't think there's anything sacreligious about taking a little liberty like that when there's a reason behind the decision and it works musically.  It's true that when you reiterate that sostenuto at each bar it can get pedantic, but I it didn't sound like too much to me.  I guess I'm just getting old...

[utterlysneaky]

thank's a lot pianist1976, you just made a helluva lot of sense to me! I mean seriously
I do agree that there is room for rubato and expressivo in this etude, though after listening to my recording you few times a row now I'm enclined to think also that there's simply too much of it, I should probably pick a few spots for that, maybe those that are related to the placement of Chopin's accents.

One version I love is Perahia's, particularly the way he ends the piece, last two bars slightly slower tempo and NOT banging that last C octave, when I first heard his recording of it I thought "ah, it can be done that way too"..just as an example. But thank you, I will definitely practice for a more steady tempo. Infact that is a bit my curse, I tend to take liberties with rythmical swaying, I guess it's the composer/improviser-mind of mine doing it's thing. Something to work on!

[furtwaengler]

I thoroughly enjoyed this very daring, refreshingly spontaneous, improvisational recording of op. 10 no. 1. As per the study of the study, with Chopin as with Liszt and others to follow there is a primary emphasis on the music to be made...music that is constructed out of a technical (or in others a compositional) problem, but still music as the end setting them apart from mindless exercises. So you must not sacrifice the technical aspect (such as adding thumbs wherever possible in op. 10 no. 2), but none of this is at the expense of the musical result with all its possibilities. You have just shown an example of one such very individual possibilities, and I will say I did enjoy it very much.

I am very sorry we live in such rigid times concerning personal musicality. This was not so in Chopin's day, and we can hear the remnants of this golden age in many an old recording. Now all orchestras and pianists must sound alike, as if cut by a cookie cutter. Digital recordings may be the culprit...I don't know, but certain comments will reflect these biases. I'd charge you to keep being yourself, and upload some more of your playing. 

Dave

[utterlysneaky]

Exactly- Orchestras and (pro)pianists must sound more or less alike. All slavishly following the trends of modern day performing with it's overflow of academic puritanists, screeming in horror at the slightest show of personal musicianship..Horowitze's Etude Op.25 No.1  (aeolian harp) from his "Last recording cd" is a good example.. He doesn't play Chopin's dynamics everywhere in his recording of that etude. He does things no one else does with it. And we all know, that who plays it like that doesn't really matter. If Horowitz can do it like that, so can aunt Mary or anybody on the planet.

[becky8898]

Hi Utterly(ill leave out the sneaky part. ) First if I offended you in any way im sorry.  However I do note that when you started this thread you asked for any constructive criticism . Perhaps some of the criticism wasnt so constructive, but anyone with your obvious skill, amateur musican or not has to expect some good criticism and some not so good criticism.  I gave you my view on playing a Chopin etude. Pianist1976 gave you a slightly different view from mine.  Take it all in . Accept the good and reject the bad.  Pianisten1989 was right in that your way to talented to use the amateur card.  The only thing you said that I thought was a little silly was if Horowitz can do it anyone can do it.  there is a reason Horowitz is Horowitz . He just pulls off stuff that anyone else trying would sound awful.  Believe me, Sometimes I try to emulate some of the things Valentina lisitsa does and I sound like a total butt head.

Hey anyway , I did really enjoy hearing your recording and would love to hear more.  And even if people dont always use the right words, ill bet everyone here on the forum only hopes for you to improve your skills.

Cheers, Becky

[utterlysneaky]

Where on earth would you have offended me? Nowhere! I just think it's sad that someone who otherwise might have had some interesting input to share should start off by claiming I think I'm better than Chopin and spitting in his face..haha..LOL..anybody who knows me could tell you that I'm one of the biggest Chopin venerators of this planet. I don't know what this 89 dude said anymore after a few of his childish remarks, because those very remarks made me skip his subsequent replies. Anywayzz..Have a nice day!

[pianisten1989]

I keep making some sort of enemies here on pianostreet. I better stop =/ Well, at least I didn't write something upsetting in my last post!

[utterlysneaky]

I would concur with pianist1976 though, this piece doesn't have to be as square as it looks. And melodically speaking, this piece is built on a choral bass, meaning the left hand octaves are singing AND sustaining melody throughout the whole piece. So I would call etude No.1 one of Chopin's most melodious works, if you can understand that point of view.

[pianist1976]

I thoroughly enjoyed this very daring, refreshingly spontaneous, improvisational recording of op. 10 no. 1. As per the study of the study, with Chopin as with Liszt and others to follow there is a primary emphasis on the music to be made...music that is constructed out of a technical (or in others a compositional) problem, but still music as the end setting them apart from mindless exercises. So you must not sacrifice the technical aspect (such as adding thumbs wherever possible in op. 10 no. 2), but none of this is at the expense of the musical result with all its possibilities. You have just shown an example of one such very individual possibilities, and I will say I did enjoy it very much.

I am very sorry we live in such rigid times concerning personal musicality. This was not so in Chopin's day, and we can hear the remnants of this golden age in many an old recording. Now all orchestras and pianists must sound alike, as if cut by a cookie cutter. Digital recordings may be the culprit...I don't know, but certain comments will reflect these biases. I'd charge you to keep being yourself, and upload some more of your playing.

Dave, you gave me a lot of stuff  to think about. Thank you very much for sharing these thoughts.  

BTW: the more I listen to this etude rendition, the more I like it. Except for a few exaggerations, I think it's excellent.

[fleetfingers]

I keep making some sort of enemies here on pianostreet. I better stop =/ Well, at least I didn't write something upsetting in my last post!

I would like to interject here and say that I enjoy pianisten1989's posts and appreciate his candidness.

As for the Etude, I liked it! Quick, accurate, clean, and light; hard to do with this piece. You are obviously very talented to play it as well as you did. The dynamics were great and I liked the rubato you added but agree that it might be too much. After a while, it becomes predictable and tedious.   

[danhuyle]

Is it me or do I listen to Vladimir Ashkenazy's recording of Chopin Etudes too many times?

Rubato in every bar and it does get... predictable over the course of the piece. The control of rhythm, tempo and technique you display bring out the simplicity of the piece. To be able to play with that ease and flexible with the etude isn't an easy task.

Good work and keep it up

[spencervirt]

Its all personal opinion, and I thought your interpretation was refreshing. I really liked it. It was new!

I thought the rubato was fine. Does everybody have to play everything the same? Lighten up guys.

This is how liszt would have played it.

[iratior]

Wow, this recording seems to have sparked quite a bit of controversy!  Etude opus 10 no. 1 is one of those pieces for the performance of which I have sought analyses and strategies for years, and in the end gotten almost nowhere with.  Let's face it, people with big hands have a distinct advantage doing this etude.  Hearing this recording sent me scurrying to the score to see, was I always doing this or that measure wrong?  Sometimes yes and sometimes no, it turned out.  The harmonies of this etude are delicate, and I am afraid that the trouble with rubato playing is that if you hold certain notes longer than usual -- for example, the G-major arpeggio of measure 5 -- you change the way the notes add themselves together for their harmonic effect.  The fact that the G-major arpeggio had more than one B in it became much more prominent, and caused the sound to be that of double thirds -- something one of my composition teachers described as "weak", and the other forbade, sternly and categorically.  Another feature of the performance was the accentuation of the first notes of some of the arpeggios, creating an inchoate "middle voice".  But I'm not convinced that the harmonies Chopin put into themselves lend themselves to the insertion of such a middle voice.  That said, it remains true that utterlysneaky has an enviable technique, and delivers a very entertaining performance.

[iratior]

And in line 12 of my paragraph above, "themselves" should have been "this etude".

[pada]

I liked this a lot. You have a rare sense of harmonies, I hear character in each arpeggio here.

[perprocrastinate]

I accidentally came across this topic upon searching for 'Chopin Etude Op 10 No 8', but I am pleased with this "accident"!

I don't know about the controversy in the earlier posts, and I don't know much about this piece either, but I find this interpretation to be exquisite; it is definitely unique.

Deserves a bump.

[starstruck5]

I liked your playing very much -it had warmth and expression -every note sounded jewel -like =awesome and refreshing =-

[neonm]

I wonder how I can reach that level because I can't seem to plays the piece any faster than at 70 tempo without hitting wrong notes. Any tips would be greatly appreciated because I have to play this for a few hundred at the end of November

[kristinazx]

Guys have already said all, so there is no need for my opinion

[awesom_o]

In any case, this etude is so difficult and demanding, that the naked truth of it is, that one plays it any way one can.

There is a remarkable amount of truth in this statement!

I agree with the other posters about utterlysneaky's rubato. For me, it was unChopinesque.

[andrewkoay]

I think this sounds pretty good, you have very good control over the sound and you play cleanly and sensitively. You managed to make it sound very intimate, which is something I don't normally hear from this etude!

Like the others, I don't like the rubato too, I think it's way too predictable and you're destroying the flow of the music this way. It sounds a bit draggy and it's as if you were about to stop at times. But at other times the rubato is absolutely excellent (especially in the middle section). I listen to a lot of pop, jazz and rock, and the flow, rhythm and pulse of the music is absolutely crucial to the audience's ability to enjoy and get lost in a piece/song.

But of course as the artist you can play it whatever way you like it, I'm all for more creativity in the music scene and personally hate the mindset of "there's only a few approaches that are correct" in the classical world nowadays. 

[pianoobsessed]

Hello, just keeping the thread alive......

I downloaded your performance, I liked it. Infact I am listening to it again - how on earth did you get such a clear recording? Great technique and control, your right hand can handle all those stretches without any problems ( the A major arpegio is the hardest for me). The clairity of each individual note is the hardest thing in this etude, and you nailed it. When I play this ( badly)  I often wonder what to do with those notes on the thumbs of LH and RH at the beginning of the bar; you have given me food for thought.
I hope you are still playing to this level and recording.