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Topic: Chopin Nocturne op 27 no 1, a few questions  (Read 9250 times)

Offline thinkgreenlovepiano

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Chopin Nocturne op 27 no 1, a few questions
on: February 27, 2011, 04:37:52 AM
Hi everyone,
My teacher recently assigned me Chopin's Nocturne in c sharp minor, op 27 no 1, and I have a few questions about certain parts of this piece. I won't be having lessons for a few weeks, because my teacher is going to be away... I want to start practising this piece, I know my teacher expects me to, and also I'm really excited about it. (:

I'm referring to bar 6 and 7 of the nocturne...
first of all, I'm not exactly sure how I'm supposed to play the dotted eighth note + sixteenth note in the right hand with the left hand notes. Is what I've drawn correct, or am I supposed to line them up some other way? Is the sixteenth note supposed to be played with the last left hand note, or after?

Also, in the left hand, for bar 7, I've looked at different editions and they all suggest different fingerings. Right now I'm doing 311254 511255. The 2 alternate fingerings would probably produce a better legato, but they seem a bit awkward, especially the 1-5 and 5-1 finger substitutions. If you play this piece, what fingering do you use?

Lastly, there's a large chord in the middle section of the nocturne that spans a ninth. No matter how I position my hands, I cannot reach this chord. Actually, my hands are kind of small and I can only reach octaves anyway, even if I make 90 degree angles with my thumb and pinky. So do I roll the chord? Or what?

Ok I'm done with my questions. :D Thanks for your help.
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Offline perfect_pitch

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Re: Nocturne op 27 no 1, a few questions
Reply #1 on: February 27, 2011, 04:54:58 AM
Personally - (Bar 6) I would play the RH D natural smack-dab in the middle between the C# and A in the left hand

As for Bar 7, I think you've got it... the first two notes RH of beat 4 would come together with the LH, and the third RH note would be inbetween the LH B and the next LH note in Bar 8... whatever it is.

As for the fingering the left hand - I personally wouldn't probably use the 15 finger substitution... I've never played the piece though, but don't think it's really possible at the speed I've heard it been played.

As for the large chord... Play the Db and Eb both with the thumb.   :)

Handy trick for large chords that have a little cluster at the bottom.
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Offline quantum

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Re: Nocturne op 27 no 1, a few questions
Reply #2 on: February 27, 2011, 01:43:47 PM
In pieces like this the horizontal continuity of rhythm is more important than the vertical alignment.  While theoretically the way you illustrate is how the notes would line up, you probably may not wish to rigidly follow this course.  Phrasing and direction of line take primacy, and to have them free flowing often means slight modification of rhythmic alignment.  

I don't play any finger substitutions in the LH.  Just stretches throughout the entire piece.  You don't have to play finger legato in order for the LH to sound legato.  Finger substitutions may hinder the flow of the accompaniment.  Remember it is the RH that has the melody and that is where listeners attention will mostly be.  

Try some of these:
321244 551255
321254 51 (RH 1) 125


As perfect_pitch says, play Db-Eb with the thumb.  
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Offline thinkgreenlovepiano

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Re: Nocturne op 27 no 1, a few questions
Reply #3 on: February 27, 2011, 07:25:58 PM
Quote from: perfect_pitch on February 27, 2011, 04:54:58 AM
As for the large chord... Play the Db and Eb both with the thumb.   :)

Handy trick for large chords that have a little cluster at the bottom.

Thank you for your suggestion but my hands still can't quite reach all the notes in this chord. :( Maybe in a year, my hands will grow bigger. For now, is there any other way I can play this part...

Quote from: quantum on February 27, 2011, 01:43:47 PM
In pieces like this the horizontal continuity of rhythm is more important than the vertical alignment.  While theoretically the way you illustrate is how the notes would line up, you probably may not wish to rigidly follow this course.  Phrasing and direction of line take primacy, and to have them free flowing often means slight modification of rhythmic alignment.  

I see...So how would I figure out when to play the sixteenth notes? Right now I'm practising at a really slow tempo, so I have find some place to fit that note in...

Quote from: quantum on February 27, 2011, 01:43:47 PM
I don't play any finger substitutions in the LH.  Just stretches throughout the entire piece.  You don't have to play finger legato in order for the LH to sound legato.  Finger substitutions may hinder the flow of the accompaniment.  Remember it is the RH that has the melody and that is where listeners attention will mostly be.  

Try some of these:
321244 551255
321254 51 (RH 1) 125
 

Thank you for the fingering suggestions, I'm going to try them out!
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"A painter paints pictures on canvas. But musicians paint their pictures on silence."
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Offline overfjell

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Re: Nocturne op 27 no 1, a few questions
Reply #4 on: February 27, 2011, 10:30:10 PM
If you can't reach the notes with the thumb on the Dflat and E flat, strike the Dflat and Eflat then as quickly as possible, strike the rest of the chord after, not like an arpeggio, but more like two rapidly alternating chords.
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Now learning:
Chopin Etude Op. 10 No. 1 in C Major
Rachmaninoff Prelude Op. 23 No. 5 in G Minor
Chopin Polonaise Op. 40 No. 2 in C Minor
Scriabin Prelude for the Left Hand Alone

Offline quantum

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Re: Nocturne op 27 no 1, a few questions
Reply #5 on: February 27, 2011, 10:52:48 PM
Quote from: thinkgreenlovepiano on February 27, 2011, 07:25:58 PM
I see...So how would I figure out when to play the sixteenth notes? Right now I'm practising at a really slow tempo, so I have find some place to fit that note in...

For practice, just fit them in as you illustrated.  

When you are getting more into the interpretation stage of your practice, you need to think of where the melody is going and how the phrase ebbs and flows.  You will be concentrating more on the shape of the melody rather than the alignment of notes with the accompaniment.  Ask your teacher to demonstrate the shaping of the phrase.  Another thing to do is ask a vocalist to sing the line for you.  Chopin adored opera, and many of his melodies are inspired by song and singing. 

It may be good to note that in Chopin's time it was a notational convention that the vertical hemiola of dotted eighth and sixteenth against triplets was a shortcut for writing a bracketed triplet of quarter + eighth.  Personally I do not play it such way in this piece but it is good to keep in mind when forming your interpretation.  


Quote from: thinkgreenlovepiano on February 27, 2011, 07:25:58 PM
Thank you for your suggestion but my hands still can't quite reach all the notes in this chord. :( Maybe in a year, my hands will grow bigger. For now, is there any other way I can play this part...

Another way of thinking of overfjell's suggestion is to treat the Db and Eb as a grace note tied to the rest of the chord.  

The other way is to roll the chord.  But this option may take away from the intensity of the passage.  
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Made a Liszt. Need new Handel's for Soler panel & Alkan foil. Will Faure Stein on the way to pick up Mendels' sohn. Josquin get Wolfgangs Schu with Clara. Gone Chopin, I'll be Bach

Offline overfjell

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Re: Nocturne op 27 no 1, a few questions
Reply #6 on: February 28, 2011, 07:57:01 PM
Quote from: quantum on February 27, 2011, 10:52:48 PM
 


Another way of thinking of overfjell's suggestion is to treat the Db and Eb as a grace note tied to the rest of the chord.  

The other way is to roll the chord.  But this option may take away from the intensity of the passage.  

Thank you for illustrating my suggestion, I couldn't think of the right words for it. xD
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Now learning:
Chopin Etude Op. 10 No. 1 in C Major
Rachmaninoff Prelude Op. 23 No. 5 in G Minor
Chopin Polonaise Op. 40 No. 2 in C Minor
Scriabin Prelude for the Left Hand Alone

Offline thinkgreenlovepiano

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Re: Nocturne op 27 no 1, a few questions
Reply #7 on: March 02, 2011, 01:25:25 AM
Quote from: overfjell on February 27, 2011, 10:30:10 PM
If you can't reach the notes with the thumb on the Dflat and E flat, strike the Dflat and Eflat then as quickly as possible, strike the rest of the chord after, not like an arpeggio, but more like two rapidly alternating chords.
Thanks, I guess I'll have to do that for now. Do you have any fingering suggestions for that? And would I play the first chord with the bass, or before?

Quote from: quantum on February 27, 2011, 10:52:48 PM
For practice, just fit them in as you illustrated.  

When you are getting more into the interpretation stage of your practice, you need to think of where the melody is going and how the phrase ebbs and flows.  You will be concentrating more on the shape of the melody rather than the alignment of notes with the accompaniment.  Ask your teacher to demonstrate the shaping of the phrase.  Another thing to do is ask a vocalist to sing the line for you.  Chopin adored opera, and many of his melodies are inspired by song and singing.  

It may be good to note that in Chopin's time it was a notational convention that the vertical hemiola of dotted eighth and sixteenth against triplets was a shortcut for writing a bracketed triplet of quarter + eighth.  Personally I do not play it such way in this piece but it is good to keep in mind when forming your interpretation.  


Another way of thinking of overfjell's suggestion is to treat the Db and Eb as a grace note tied to the rest of the chord.  

The other way is to roll the chord.  But this option may take away from the intensity of the passage.  
Thanks for all your advice and help :)
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"A painter paints pictures on canvas. But musicians paint their pictures on silence."
~Leopold Stokowski

Offline overfjell

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Re: Nocturne op 27 no 1, a few questions
Reply #8 on: March 02, 2011, 09:38:04 PM
Quote from: thinkgreenlovepiano on March 02, 2011, 01:25:25 AM
Thanks, I guess I'll have to do that for now. Do you have any fingering suggestions for that? And would I play the first chord with the bass, or before?
 Thanks for all your advice and help :)

I'd try it both ways.

As for fingering. 1 and 2 at the bottom, 3, 4 and 5 at the top, that way, while not stretching, you don't have to really change your hand position too much.
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Now learning:
Chopin Etude Op. 10 No. 1 in C Major
Rachmaninoff Prelude Op. 23 No. 5 in G Minor
Chopin Polonaise Op. 40 No. 2 in C Minor
Scriabin Prelude for the Left Hand Alone
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