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Black Key Etude Video - Please help (Read 3787 times)

Offline fleetfingers

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Black Key Etude Video - Please help
« on: March 07, 2011, 03:19:55 AM »
Hi,

I am a 30-year-old amateur player. I used to enjoy learning classical pieces as a teenager with my teacher but for the past 10 years have spent most of my piano time accompanying and playing the organ at church. A little over a year ago, I inherited the family piano from my parents and began teaching lessons to beginners. I have also rediscoverd my love for classical music and cannot stay away from the piano. :) To be honest, I am not familiar with many of the "classics", but I'm learning about them all the time on Piano Street.

I heard Chopin's Etude Op. 10 No. 5 for the first time a few months ago and wanted so badly to learn to play it myself. I think it's almost done - there are a lot of mistakes still, but I've been practicing slowly to make sure I'm getting everything just right and it feels like I'm close!

This piece is not a finished product, by any means. That's why I put it in the Student's Corner instead of the Audition Room for now. It's just that I've been working so hard on this etude and really wish I had a teacher to critique what I'm doing and how my progress is. If you all would be so kind to listen and give me some advice and ideas and point out things to work on, I would really appreciate it! I plan to play this at my students' recital in April - and there will be a professional recording made, so I want to get this to a good performance level. This video was recorded by my son, so it's not the best...and I don't have black hair; that's the lens cap getting in the way.  ;D My camera is not the best and does not pick up the differences in dynamics. I do play with dynamics, but you can't really tell from the recording.



piano sheet music of Etude


Offline ongaku_oniko

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Re: Black Key Etude Video - Please help
«Reply #1 on: March 07, 2011, 04:00:23 AM »
haha this is the exact piece I'm trying to play right now! And I'm in a similar situation as you, learned piano before, sort of quit, then rediscovered my love for classical music.

I'm no where near being a teacher, so I can only discuss, not "teach".

1. obviously you're making mistakes here and there, so it would be better to play it slowly to fix the mistakes first, IMO

2. My ears aren't that great, so I can't tell if the bluriness comes from pedalling orjust bad quality from the recording. But it feels a bit blurry, so it would be better to use less pedal? And play the notes more clearly and individually. I know it's hard since it's so fast, but again, if you play sowly and loudly, lift your fingers high, it'll get clearer, I think.

Offline becky8898

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Re: Black Key Etude Video - Please help
«Reply #2 on: March 07, 2011, 05:40:35 AM »
Hi fleetfingers. I noticed you went out of your way to mention your an amateur to start your post.  Well Amateur or not if you want this to sound professional you have to practice professional.  It seems to me you must be practicing like an amateur right now.  Ok , first , slow the whole thing way down and see if you can get a tempo where you can get thru the whole thing keeping the tempo even and where mistakes ( and I dont mean one or two) arent really an issue. if you can do that then the hard part is over. If you cant then theres no way I can help you over the computer. Ok lets say you can. PUsh the metronome about 5 bpm faster than your comfortable with . Start playing  if something breaks down. STOP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!. Take where it broke down and lower the metronome back down . Play the passage does it work.  IF if does increase the metronome 5 bpm again. Play the passage does it work. If it does go back to the previous phrase tie it to the troublesome passage and play it, Does it work . If so  - go back ot the beginning and play it all the way thru to your next trouble spot and do the whole thing all over again.  When you can get all the way thru the piece . go back to the start and up the metronome 5 more bpm more. So now your going 10 bpm faster than you where. . Do the whole procedure all over again. 

Thats how a professional practices at least according to how I have been taught.  Amateurs slide over mistakes and somehow they think they will fix themselves , or they think they can magically increase tempo without preperation.  My teacher has always taught me that People who dont do a piece well , play it to fast when they first learn it and not fast enough under control when they think they have learned it. 

I know its a pain. But I can tell you that with me it works.  I just dont know any other way to do it.  Hope that helps. 

Cheers, Becky

Offline fleetfingers

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Re: Black Key Etude Video - Please help
«Reply #3 on: March 08, 2011, 05:41:28 AM »
Thank you both for your advices! I was hesitant to even post the video because there are so many mistakes, but I have been feeling stuck and was hoping someone could help me.

ongaku_oniko, you're right about slowing it down. I started with Becky's method and find that it helps. The recording quality is bad and it does make the sound a bit "muffled". That may be what you're hearing, but I am also trying it out with less pedal - almost none - and will record again to see if it sounds more clear.

Becky...the metronome??? Yikes, that's not what I wanted to hear. I am intimidated by the metronome and don't ever use it (can you tell by my playing?). But...since it's YOU making the recommendation and it's what YOU do, of course I paid very close attention and followed every instruction to the letter!!! I worked on it for a couple of hours today. At first, it was a pain - like you said - and felt so tedious. But once I got the hang of the process, I actually enjoyed the methodical approach. It was so rewarding each time I played a hair faster and was able to maintain the same control.

I was wondering: Generally, do you learn your piece first, then apply the metronome/speed up method? Or do you use the metronome from the very start of learning a new piece?

I appreciate you taking the time to share some of your wisdom! :) You will be a great teacher someday!

In the end, I am glad that I decided to post this. Just being able to discuss with others and get new ideas is so helpful to me. I will keep at it and post again, hopefully with no mistakes.  ;D

Offline keyboardclass

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Re: Black Key Etude Video - Please help
«Reply #4 on: March 08, 2011, 06:07:31 AM »
Amateurs slide over mistakes and somehow they think they will fix themselves , or they think they can magically increase tempo without preperation. 
Good advice.  Always play perfectly - it'll speed up of its own accord.

Offline becky8898

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Re: Black Key Etude Video - Please help
«Reply #5 on: March 08, 2011, 06:11:38 AM »
Hi. Actually im a little different than most people. When I first start a piece its already completly memorized. I mean like I could write out the whole piece from memory.  Then by the time I actually sit down to play the piece , I already know where the most challanging parts are technically and those are what I work on , till i have them down.  Then I do the whole piece from beginning to end at a slow tempo. and work on it with the metronome method I told you about.  ( See that works really well. ) Once I have the piece up to tempo. Then comes really fine tuning, fingering, legato, staccato, dynamics, etc. Then once I can do all that , the artistic part of it kicks in. Right now more often than not, thats my teacher guiding me. She is trying to get me to think on my own, but thats coming along slowly. When you hear me play nicely its mostly my teacher doing the thinking right now.

Anyway next time you post, do it on the audition board, because there are really smart people over there, like a gazillion times smarter than me.

Cheers, Becky

Offline keyboardclass

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Re: Black Key Etude Video - Please help
«Reply #6 on: March 08, 2011, 06:34:55 AM »
I find initially I'm more interested in exploring the composer's touch - different, I know.

Offline ongaku_oniko

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Re: Black Key Etude Video - Please help
«Reply #7 on: March 08, 2011, 07:33:00 AM »
Hi. Actually im a little different than most people. When I first start a piece its already completly memorized. I mean like I could write out the whole piece from memory.  Then by the time I actually sit down to play the piece , I already know where the most challanging parts are technically and those are what I work on , till i have them down.  Then I do the whole piece from beginning to end at a slow tempo. and work on it with the metronome method I told you about.  ( See that works really well. ) Once I have the piece up to tempo. Then comes really fine tuning, fingering, legato, staccato, dynamics, etc. Then once I can do all that , the artistic part of it kicks in. Right now more often than not, thats my teacher guiding me. She is trying to get me to think on my own, but thats coming along slowly. When you hear me play nicely its mostly my teacher doing the thinking right now.

Anyway next time you post, do it on the audition board, because there are really smart people over there, like a gazillion times smarter than me.

Cheers, Becky

This is really intersting! Does your whole family do that, or just you?

And how exactly do you "memorize" before you play? Do you listen to it  lot? Or do you rigorously analyze the score first, so that you got everything down, then try it on the piano?

Offline keyboardclass

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Re: Black Key Etude Video - Please help
«Reply #8 on: March 08, 2011, 07:54:25 AM »
Hey I just watched - I'm impressed!

Offline pianowolfi

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Re: Black Key Etude Video - Please help
«Reply #9 on: March 08, 2011, 10:26:11 AM »
Additionally to becky's good advice I'd suggest to minimize your movements and keep your fingers much closer to the keys. As far as I can see from a video, you tend to make too big movements. If you want to get this up to speed you might reduce them to a minimum. But make sure to have a relaxed and flexible wrist all the time! And work on your left hand, it seems you're all busy with the "difficult" right hand passages and completely forget about the left.

Offline fleetfingers

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Re: Black Key Etude Video - Please help
«Reply #10 on: March 08, 2011, 04:47:33 PM »
keyboardclass: Thanks for watching and for the complement! :)

pianowolfi: You are right about my left hand. The truth is that I have never had to stay so intensely focused during an entire piece before. This Etude has been a real challenge for me because it never lets up! I don't think much about my left hand, but I will work on it alone and try to give it more attention when my hands are together. Were you talking about the notes of the left hand that I'm forgetting? Or do you mean the way that I play it/the musicality? I am assuming the latter.

I have very small hands and short fingers - can barely reach an octave - so some of the movements are just me having to jump and reach further than someone else has to. My favorite interpretation that I've heard is Rubenstein's that I watch on YouTube, and his hands barely move, whereas I have to jump all over the place. There may be unnecessary movements I'm making that I have not, until now, been aware of so I will definitely pay attention to it and do what I can to reduce them. Thanks!

Offline pianowolfi

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Re: Black Key Etude Video - Please help
«Reply #11 on: March 08, 2011, 07:42:19 PM »
I mean mainly the vertical movements. As soon as it gets easier you tend to relax, and that's just where you are getting the right sort of movement: watch for example 0:13-0:15. Before this it looks as if you feel under stress and your fingers move high up into the air and as soon as you feel comfortable you start to relax, so the movements on the Bb octaves are getting just right :) At 0:42 it gets even more difficult, and your movements become bigger instead of smaller, vertically and also back-and-forth on the keyboard.

Regarding the left hand: yes I mean mainly musically. I think that will start to improve as soon as you start practicing more in your "comfort zone". That allows you to listen more and to not get so distracted by the difficulty.

Offline ongaku_oniko

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Re: Black Key Etude Video - Please help
«Reply #12 on: March 08, 2011, 07:51:28 PM »
keyboardclass: Thanks for watching and for the complement! :)

pianowolfi: You are right about my left hand. The truth is that I have never had to stay so intensely focused during an entire piece before. This Etude has been a real challenge for me because it never lets up! I don't think much about my left hand, but I will work on it alone and try to give it more attention when my hands are together. Were you talking about the notes of the left hand that I'm forgetting? Or do you mean the way that I play it/the musicality? I am assuming the latter.

I have very small hands and short fingers - can barely reach an octave - so some of the movements are just me having to jump and reach further than someone else has to. My favorite interpretation that I've heard is Rubenstein's that I watch on YouTube, and his hands barely move, whereas I have to jump all over the place. There may be unnecessary movements I'm making that I have not, until now, been aware of so I will definitely pay attention to it and do what I can to reduce them. Thanks!

Wow, you and I have the same experience! I never realised playing the piano required the use of the brain before. I always just sight read until the movement is stuck in my fingers, then I never look at the score again. But tht doesn't work for this piece.

Just wondering, how long did it take you to get to the point in the video?

Offline pianowolfi

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Re: Black Key Etude Video - Please help
«Reply #13 on: March 08, 2011, 08:07:53 PM »
I never realised playing the piano required the use of the brain before.

It makes things much easier.

Offline ongaku_oniko

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Re: Black Key Etude Video - Please help
«Reply #14 on: March 08, 2011, 08:33:03 PM »
I realized that after I started black keys.

Oh, another thing. I don't know about professional recordings and high quality recordig instruments, but I was completely discouraged by how my recordings on my iphone always sound so messy and bad, no matter how much I try and play slowly and cleanly.

Then today, I decided to put my iphone far away (like a few meters away from the piano), and wow, the quality slightly improved! I think for low quality recorders, if the sound is too loud, it'll get fuzzy.

So maybe if you try to record from a distance, it might sound cleaner and better.



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
completely offtopic question, but I didn't wanna start another thread on it:
Does anyone else have a "bad finger day"? Sometimes I get bad finger days, and one or more of my fingers are completely off. They feel extremely weird, and can't put any strength at all. In fact, when it gets bad, I can't even type with that finger anymore. It doesn't even have the strength to push down on a computer keyboard. It doesn't even have the strength to push a penny. It can barely move through the air. Anyone else get this, or do I have a disease or something?

Offline becky8898

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Re: Black Key Etude Video - Please help
«Reply #15 on: March 08, 2011, 11:49:30 PM »
This is really intersting! Does your whole family do that, or just you?

And how exactly do you "memorize" before you play? Do you listen to it  lot? Or do you rigorously analyze the score first, so that you got everything down, then try it on the piano?

Actually im the only one in my family, but until I was 9 I thought everybody did that. I was kind of shocked when I found out other people couldnt do that. 

How it works, I dont know. You see if I read a score I hear it in my head. And I never forget the music.  If I can hear it in my head then I can see the score.   So as an example take the black key etude where talking about here.  IF I read it thru from beginning to end slowly maybe 3 or 4 times. Thats it . I have it in my brain.  After that when I practice I dont need the score except for notes I make or my teacher makes. 

Hope that helps.

Cheers, Becky.

Offline keyboardclass

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Re: Black Key Etude Video - Please help
«Reply #16 on: March 09, 2011, 06:32:13 AM »
completely offtopic question, but I didn't wanna start another thread on it:
Does anyone else have a "bad finger day"? Sometimes I get bad finger days, and one or more of my fingers are completely off. They feel extremely weird, and can't put any strength at all. In fact, when it gets bad, I can't even type with that finger anymore. It doesn't even have the strength to push down on a computer keyboard. It doesn't even have the strength to push a penny. It can barely move through the air. Anyone else get this, or do I have a disease or something?
That does sound odd.  Your fingers should be getting stronger  Maybe see a doctor but you'd need to have the symptom at the time.

Offline fleetfingers

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Re: Black Key Etude Video - Please help
«Reply #17 on: March 09, 2011, 07:10:44 AM »
There are suddenly a lot of things going on in this thread.

Just wondering, how long did it take you to get to the point in the video?

The first page only took a weekend to memorize and play pretty well. The second page is a killer and my progress became much slower. I think it's been around 3 months since I started to learn it. It's hard to add up the time because my practicing is inconsistent, and I even put pieces aside now and then to take a break.

It makes things much easier.

 ;D

I mean mainly the vertical movements. As soon as it gets easier you tend to relax, and that's just where you are getting the right sort of movement: watch for example 0:13-0:15. Before this it looks as if you feel under stress and your fingers move high up into the air and as soon as you feel comfortable you start to relax, so the movements on the Bb octaves are getting just right :) At 0:42 it gets even more difficult, and your movements become bigger instead of smaller, vertically and also back-and-forth on the keyboard.

I cannot thank you enough for this paragraph!!!! Just what I needed.  :) :) :)

How it works, I dont know. You see if I read a score I hear it in my head. And I never forget the music.  If I can hear it in my head then I can see the score.   So as an example take the black key etude where talking about here.  IF I read it thru from beginning to end slowly maybe 3 or 4 times. Thats it . I have it in my brain.  After that when I practice I dont need the score except for notes I make or my teacher makes.   

Cheers, Becky.


So interesting!

Question: Is your memory driven by the auditory or the visual? What I mean is: As you go to the piano and play something for the first time that you have memorized, do you hear the music, then picture the notes? Or picture the notes, then hear the music they represent?

Offline keyboardclass

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Re: Black Key Etude Video - Please help
«Reply #18 on: March 09, 2011, 12:44:15 PM »
Here's an interesting point - I learnt it hands separately for quite some time.  When I put them together I found they're really two different pieces with accents in different places (a Bach trick).  I laughed my head of playing it hands together!

Offline ongaku_oniko

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Re: Black Key Etude Video - Please help
«Reply #19 on: March 09, 2011, 03:43:48 PM »
There are suddenly a lot of things going on in this thread.

The first page only took a weekend to memorize and play pretty well. The second page is a killer and my progress became much slower. I think it's been around 3 months since I started to learn it. It's hard to add up the time because my practicing is inconsistent, and I even put pieces aside now and then to take a break.

haha... this time I'm completely opposite of you.

First page took me like a month. Second page I've started for two days, and I think I'm doing pretty well... as well as I did when I was three weeks into the first page. I think it's sort of because I played the first page so much that I sort of got the hang of the piece.

The trill part was not as hard as I expected. What fingering do you use? I do 1-2-1 *jump* 5/4-1 (Actually I'm cheating, I'm using both my fingers, and hoping that one of them hit the key since I always slip off with just one finger.. .LOL) *jump* 5-3-5-3 *jump down* 1-4-2 *jump down* 1-2-1 *jump* 4/5-1 *jump 5-4-5-4  1-2-1 4-5-4 1-2-1....

Offline ladypianist

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Re: Black Key Etude Video - Please help
«Reply #20 on: March 10, 2011, 04:02:45 AM »
Hello Fleetfingers.  For the little time you have worked on this piece it seems quite nice.  Often time is the only cure to some problems. Though I could see at once that Chopin the trickster is befuddling you as you attempt this.  We used to say that at conservatory about Chopin . Get you looking at one hand while the other hand gave the piece its feel.  Though many things need to be worked on , for now if I was your teacher,  I would have you  spend much more time on your left hand. I can see that is where the bulk of your problems are.  Learn your left hand. Play it alone. Do not look at it sometimes. Feel the movments. Concentrate on the little patterns in the left hand.  Keep your hand as quiet as possible.  Smooth movements.  Slow down if you need to.  I know it seems like everything is going on in the right hand, but many students make the mistake of not paying enough attention to the left hand and as you fumble with the left hand it breaks your concentration in the right hand.  Most of the advice you have been given so far, seems spot on. 

I will tell you if you had been  one of my students you would have had  to do a well thought out half speed interpretation, that was artistic and very presentable in its own right before I would give permission to begin to accelerate the velocity.

Best of luck with this and please present again and show us your progress.

Lady Pianist
After a lifetime of learning, there is still more that I do not know , than I know.

Offline keyboardclass

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Re: Black Key Etude Video - Please help
«Reply #21 on: March 10, 2011, 05:58:42 AM »
Best advice yet!

Offline scottmcc

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Re: Black Key Etude Video - Please help
«Reply #22 on: March 10, 2011, 03:31:22 PM »
Hi. Actually im a little different than most people. When I first start a piece its already completly memorized. I mean like I could write out the whole piece from memory.  Then by the time I actually sit down to play the piece , I already know where the most challanging parts are technically and those are what I work on , till i have them down.  Then I do the whole piece from beginning to end at a slow tempo. and work on it with the metronome method I told you about.  ( See that works really well. ) Once I have the piece up to tempo. Then comes really fine tuning, fingering, legato, staccato, dynamics, etc. Then once I can do all that , the artistic part of it kicks in. Right now more often than not, thats my teacher guiding me. She is trying to get me to think on my own, but thats coming along slowly. When you hear me play nicely its mostly my teacher doing the thinking right now.

Anyway next time you post, do it on the audition board, because there are really smart people over there, like a gazillion times smarter than me.

Cheers, Becky

becky, you should read Gieseking's book about playing piano--his method is very similar to yours.  just when you think you've done something new, it turns out that someone did it a hundred years ago.  :)

http://www.amazon.com/Piano-Technique-Walter-Gieseking/dp/0486228673/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1299770928&sr=8-1

I envy that you can "hear" a score just looking at it.  I am completely unable to do so--I have to either know the sound of the piece already, or play through the score at the piano to learn what it sounds like.

Offline ongaku_oniko

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Re: Black Key Etude Video - Please help
«Reply #23 on: March 11, 2011, 01:19:48 PM »
Hi, I have a few problems myself with my black keys, and I thought I shouldn't start a new topic since there already is one, so sorry for hijacking your thread :p


At the end of the fourth bar, where it goes to D --> higher D, and then goes back to GBDGEG...

How exactly do you play that part? After listening to many, many recordings, it's really hard to catch the D-->D. It's a very smooth transition. But when I play, there's always like a slight pause between the D and G... Not really a pause, but the sound of the D just stays in your ear, if you know what I mean

and it's not because I can't connect them fast enough, because I practised for hours to connect the D to the G, and now it's actually FASTER than the other parts, like the GBDGEG...

And I don't know why, my playing never sounds clean. The first two lines I basically have them down perfectly, rarely make mistakes, and play each note clearly HS, but when I record HT it sounds muddy. And I use no pedal at all.

Offline fleetfingers

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Re: Black Key Etude Video - Please help
«Reply #24 on: March 12, 2011, 12:42:45 AM »
Hello Fleetfingers.  For the little time you have worked on this piece it seems quite nice.  Often time is the only cure to some problems. Though I could see at once that Chopin the trickster is befuddling you as you attempt this.  We used to say that at conservatory about Chopin . Get you looking at one hand while the other hand gave the piece its feel.  Though many things need to be worked on , for now if I was your teacher,  I would have you  spend much more time on your left hand. I can see that is where the bulk of your problems are.  Learn your left hand. Play it alone. Do not look at it sometimes. Feel the movments. Concentrate on the little patterns in the left hand.  Keep your hand as quiet as possible.  Smooth movements.  Slow down if you need to.  I know it seems like everything is going on in the right hand, but many students make the mistake of not paying enough attention to the left hand and as you fumble with the left hand it breaks your concentration in the right hand.  Most of the advice you have been given so far, seems spot on. 

I will tell you if you had been  one of my students you would have had  to do a well thought out half speed interpretation, that was artistic and very presentable in its own right before I would give permission to begin to accelerate the velocity.

Best of luck with this and please present again and show us your progress.

Lady Pianist

Lady Pianist,

I appreciate you taking the time to give me such great advice. You are so knowledgeable and you are kind to share your knowledge with us here on the forum. I have been practicing the way you suggest, with my left hand only, and really trying to get it in my fingers, moving smoothly and with musicality. I didn't realize how weak my left hand was until I began to do as you said.

I know I am not your student, but I'm pretending to be ;D :) :D ;D ;D :) and have taken your directions seriously. I am working on a half-speed interpretation and (except for a few times when I couldn't help myself  :)) will not speed it up until it's just the way I want it - artistically and with no mistakes. So far it's going rather well - it seems to be a good speed to begin with. Then, I plan to apply Becky's method again of increasing the metronome marking 5bpm at a time.

Thanks again for listening and offering helpful advice and encouragement! You're an amazing pianist and I feel honored to receive your thoughtful response to my video. I will surely post again shortly with my progress (hopefully, a finished product).

Warm Regards,
fleetfingers

Offline fleetfingers

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Re: Black Key Etude Video - Please help
«Reply #25 on: March 12, 2011, 07:16:05 AM »
Hi, I have a few problems myself with my black keys, and I thought I shouldn't start a new topic since there already is one, so sorry for hijacking your thread :p


At the end of the fourth bar, where it goes to D --> higher D, and then goes back to GBDGEG...

How exactly do you play that part? After listening to many, many recordings, it's really hard to catch the D-->D. It's a very smooth transition. But when I play, there's always like a slight pause between the D and G... Not really a pause, but the sound of the D just stays in your ear, if you know what I mean

and it's not because I can't connect them fast enough, because I practised for hours to connect the D to the G, and now it's actually FASTER than the other parts, like the GBDGEG...

And I don't know why, my playing never sounds clean. The first two lines I basically have them down perfectly, rarely make mistakes, and play each note clearly HS, but when I record HT it sounds muddy. And I use no pedal at all.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean, so what I say may or may not be helpful. When you play the GBDGEG part following the D -->D, it is forte, and the G is the first note of the bar, so it should be loud and accented. Weird that you would hear the D still - it should be drowned out by the sudden G. As for hearing a pause - interpretively, I guess I kind of hear one, too. I say "interpretively" because there is actually not a pause (rest) there according to the score. But when you're playing and thinking about the music, the Ds are the tail end of a phrase, then when you start again with GBDGEG you're beginning a new one. So, even if you're playing it smoothly and with correct timing, it is hard not to hear a break in the music. Does that even make sense?  :P

The very first time you play GBDGEG in the opening of the piece, the fingering suggested for the G is the 3rd finger (at least on my sheet music). As I learned to play it, I must not have noticed that the second time playing GBDGEG, it suggests using the 2nd finger. I just used my 3rd again. As I sped up, it was hard to accurately hit that G sometimes. I went back to look at the fingering and have found that the 2nd finger works much better at higher tempos.


The trill part was not as hard as I expected. What fingering do you use? I do 1-2-1 *jump* 5/4-1 (Actually I'm cheating, I'm using both my fingers, and hoping that one of them hit the key since I always slip off with just one finger.. .LOL) *jump* 5-3-5-3 *jump down* 1-4-2 *jump down* 1-2-1 *jump* 4/5-1 *jump 5-4-5-4  1-2-1 4-5-4 1-2-1....

You know, the parts that I expected to be hard weren't so bad, and the parts that looked easy ended up being harder than I expected. Go figure.  :)

I'm not sure what part you're referring to here. Can you give me bar numbers?  :)

Offline ongaku_oniko

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Re: Black Key Etude Video - Please help
«Reply #26 on: March 12, 2011, 10:38:57 AM »
omg lol... my version still says 3-5 for the GBDGEG...

the second one, I mean. I'm like it's so hard to hit the G with the 3 after doing double Ds, and even when I hit, it's hard to move the pinky back down to a B in time. But I'm like, I must use correct fingering this time!


right now the trouble points for me are bars 36 (yes, starting from 36, not 37 which is when the sempre legatissimo starts) to when it finishes.

The part I was talking about was 49-52.

Also 77-80 seems really hard to get up to speed and not make mistakes. Especially when it starts repeating in 79-80.

btw, Thanks SO much for responding and helping me understand how to play! I never listened while I had lessons, so I'm pretty much ignorant on how to practise and play properly

Offline ongaku_oniko

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Re: Black Key Etude Video - Please help
«Reply #27 on: March 15, 2011, 09:46:33 PM »
I just realized how hard page 3 is :S My fingers keep on wanting to play in a different oder than what it's supposed to

Offline fleetfingers

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Re: Black Key Etude Video - Please help
«Reply #28 on: March 25, 2011, 03:34:20 AM »
I underestimated page 3 when I first looked at it. I saw that it was mostly the right hand playing while the left-hand had a few easy chords here and there. But, yeah, it's harder than it looks!

Sorry I haven't been back to this thread in a while! I've been too busy to record and upload and all that. I recorded myself playing today, but when I returned to this thread and watched my original video again, I wasn't so sure it was any different!  :-\  It's only half the piece, though, because I started to fumble in certain parts and couldn't get back into the groove. I have the second half learned with minimal mistakes (generally) at the same tempo. I tried to use less pedal, so you'll have to let me know if it sounds any better. I will record again and get the whole thing, but for now, here is a sample of how it's going:



How is yours coming along? You should upload a video. :)  

Offline ongaku_oniko

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Re: Black Key Etude Video - Please help
«Reply #29 on: March 25, 2011, 03:55:43 AM »
finally, the video I've been waiting for :D

I think it's definitely a lot more ... fluid. Like you're more familiar with the piece.

But one thing I noticed moreso in this video than the previous one was that the right hand now seems to be too unimportant.

Like sometimes the notes aren't played properly. The sound is not even, and sometimes you can't even hear some notes in the right hand. EVen though when played properly it's hard to catch on every single note in the right hand, if you miss a few notes it sounds so obvious.

I know you didn't "miss" notes, but because some were played so light it sounds weird at times. I have the same problem. When you're playing fast, you tend to skim over the notes and not treat them properly.

Unfortunately mine is not coming along at all... I couldn't really practise these days because of exams and projects as the semester is coming to an end. And then my helath hasn't been all that great these days. I've been feeling extremely dizzy alot.

Even when I do get a chance to practise, I start falling asleep in 20-30 minutes.

Offline pianisten1989

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Re: Black Key Etude Video - Please help
«Reply #30 on: March 25, 2011, 10:38:36 AM »
I think you're wasting your time when you keep recording. Since you can't get through the piece without getting lost, something isn't right.

Don't try to play it through if this happens often. And since you couldn't get into it again, I assume it do. And since you couldn't get into it again, you're practising the wrong way.

Play only small parts - one theme, or a special part. When you get that right, do the next part (this is about 10 bars each) and then the two together, and then again. Always be aware of what notes you are playing - you should be able to play it in your head.

Offline zeusje

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Re: Black Key Etude Video - Please help
«Reply #31 on: March 25, 2011, 03:48:33 PM »
Everything in the head? I think I have some mixture of muscle memory with some other form of memory. Some things I cannot recall away from piano, only when sitting and playing it it comes back, I think muscle memory. I try to play sometimes the pieces in my mind when I am away from the piano, and get stuck quickly most often, do you think I will improve if I would be able to play the whole piece from my mind? I could give it a try.
studying:

Beethoven sonata no. 1 op. 2
Bach Prelude and Fugue in g-major, WTCII
Schumann fantasie stucke op.12 (no. 1,2)

Offline fleetfingers

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Re: Black Key Etude Video - Please help
«Reply #32 on: March 25, 2011, 04:01:46 PM »
Thanks, pianisten1989, for commenting.

I actually know this piece really, really well and can play it in my head. In fact, I have a hard time not playing it in my head. It's always there - even when I'm sleeping. I didn't get lost in the sense that I couldn't find my place and keep going. It was more of an emotional reaction that I had to the mistakes I'd made. I can keep going if I make a mistake, but I'd made more than I usually do and wasn't happy with it anymore, so I stopped.

At the time of the recording, I literally didn't have time to do it again because I had to go somewhere. Since I'm not in the audition room and this thread is more of a discussion on my progress, I thought it'd be OK to post the first half as it is an accurate representation of how I play the piece. I was mainly looking for comments on my relaxation, movement, and left hand since that is what I've been working to improve since the first video.  

Offline pianisten1989

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Re: Black Key Etude Video - Please help
«Reply #33 on: March 25, 2011, 04:11:47 PM »
Everything in the head? I think I have some mixture of muscle memory with some other form of memory. Some things I cannot recall away from piano, only when sitting and playing it it comes back, I think muscle memory. I try to play sometimes the pieces in my mind when I am away from the piano, and get stuck quickly most often, do you think I will improve if I would be able to play the whole piece from my mind? I could give it a try.
Muscle memory works as long as everything goes as planned. You might be lucky, and not a single cough attack will appear. But if you get a bit nervous, and start thinking about what you're actually playing, you will mess it up. So yeah, you should know the piece in your head.

Offline fleetfingers

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Re: Black Key Etude Video - Please help
«Reply #34 on: March 25, 2011, 04:15:03 PM »
ongaku_oniko, thanks for your response. It seems my attention has been completely focused on the left hand and the right hand has been neglected a little. Thanks for pointing that out. I'll practice the right hand separately, to make sure I'm playing the notes evenly.

I hope you can find more time to practice after your finals are over. And sorry about your health. Maybe you need to study less and sleep more?  ;D

Offline ongaku_oniko

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Re: Black Key Etude Video - Please help
«Reply #35 on: April 12, 2011, 05:51:15 AM »
Well, this is my take of the black keys etude; It's no where near finished, but I'm posting it now because I promised to get it by the end of april, but that's become impossible, as I was just informed that the pianos are off limits during exam period, so there's no way for me to play or practise.

and I don't like to break my promises, so here it is, really crappy, not up to speed and everything.

Another reason I'm posting this, is because when I play it slow with a metronome, I find that when I go down with the right hand (the first 4 bars) and when I go up (the next 4 bars) the speeds don't match. I have to be really careful or else I'll miss the metronome beat.

But when I listen to a recording, I can't hear where the rhythm is off. Can you guys with better ears tell me where my rhythm is off?

Offline fleetfingers

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Re: Black Key Etude Video - Please help
«Reply #36 on: April 12, 2011, 03:39:20 PM »
It's coming along rather nicely! The main thing is getting the notes on each hand to coordinate and play at the right time.

Practice the right hand alone and stress the first note of each triplet. Those are the strong beats of each measure and they should be even and solid in order to keep a steady rhythm to the piece. You should probably practice with the metronome and the right hand only. Once you get the right hand down rhythmically, add the left hand. You might find it helpful to draw a line from the left hand notes to the corresponding right hand ones and make sure that when you play it, the two parts sound together at the right time.

I hope you get a chance to practice again soon! Be sure to post again once you've made more progress.

Offline ongaku_oniko

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Re: Black Key Etude Video - Please help
«Reply #37 on: April 15, 2011, 09:39:47 PM »
thanks for the advice, fleet!

Just wondering, which parts did you think my left hand and right hand doesn't sound together?

Or is all of it off?

And do you know which part of my rhythm is off?

Thanks

Offline fleetfingers

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Re: Black Key Etude Video - Please help
«Reply #38 on: June 21, 2011, 08:29:05 AM »
ongaku_oniko, where have you been? I came back to this thread and listened to your recording more closely. Sorry I didn't respond earlier. Since this etude was a stretch for me, in terms of my playing level (and literally, because of my hand size), I don't feel adequate in giving you advice. But since no one else has responded, I will try.

In the beginning section, the chords in the left hand are all of equal value. The time signature is 2/4 and each chord is an eighth note, so each should receive the same amount of time - none shorter or longer than the others (except for measures 7 and 15, which contain one quarter note each). The way you play the chords in this recording suggests a dotted rhythm, which is what I believe is making the rhythm sound "off".

The second triplet of each measure is being scrunched, since the corresponding chord is being played too short. Play the right hand by itself and be sure to play each note of each triplet evenly and don't rush or skip any of them. I can't tell exactly what your right hand is doing there because it's so fast, but the notes are not all clear.

Starting in the second section, your playing of the left hand chords is correct and even, then once the ascending octaves begin, you are changing the rhythm. Again, those should all be even, except for a couple of quarter notes.

Third section: same as first.

Fourth section sounds the best. In that part, and the rest of the piece, it just needs more practice, becoming more familiar with the notes and making sure to play them as accurately as you can. And I think you should add some pedal throughout the piece. I hope you are finding time to practice and a piano to use. This etude is going to sound great once you iron out a few little details! I hope some of my feedback helps. I enjoyed listening. :)