Giving complex pieces to students early on.

[john90]

What are there negative effects of giving an insanely keen pupil something really complex early on? Assuming they completed grade 1 say, and you work with them on Moonlight Sonata for example, for a few lessons, following this by a Mozart piano sonata something like like K545, or perhaps a Chopin Mazurka first?

I can see this won't work for everyone, but what about those insanely keen students that pop up now and then. If trying this approach as a teacher, what signs should you be looking out for. Signs of overload. What bad things can happen?

Are there really aggressive teachers out there? What sort of problems do their pupils face?

[mcdiddy1]

I would say it depends on what the student has been able to achieve and their work habits. If they come in every week going above and beyond and learning parts you have not worked on, practicing pieces they are interested outside of what is being worked on in the lesson, deligent practice habits are clues a student would do well at learning more challenging, complex works.

The only negative effect would be if the teacher misreads a students motivation to learn, or picks a piece they have no interest in learning, or the teacher does not structure the lesson in a way for the student to achieve success.  You can only view this style of teaching as being aggressive if the  students is not truly ready to for learning a piece where most of the work is on their own. If you determine that a head of time then there should be no problem

[honeywill]

Nothing wrong with giving them something more challenging to work on, as long as you continue to cover the basic technical and musical elements alongside. It’s easy to get carried away on learning a complex piece that a keen student may find their way around with no real understanding. Just make sure that they are doing a thorough review of more basic repertoire at the same time, so that they don’t miss out important stages in their musical development. I don’t think any student, no matter how talented or keen, is really ready to leap from grade 1 straight into the major works by Beethoven and Chopin. There is a lot of ground-work to be done first.

[john90]

Thanks for these encouraging replies. I will keep focussing on the basic groundwork as well. It really seem to help with concentration on the basic stuff, him knowing that we need to make progress there before we can move on to the extra, more difficult piece he really wants to learn at the end.

[pianisten1989]

I probably wouldn't give them the moonlight sonata, or any of those "serious" works. They will probably have time for those later. Maybe kv 545, as you mentioned, and some clementi and czerny. Plenty of scales and arpeggios , but not That difficult ones.

[fleetfingers]

My son's violin teacher did this with him. He'd been taking orchestra at school for just over a year (the only violin training he'd had) before he began private lessons. His teacher was so excited about his talent that he gave him a level 7 piece right away.

In many ways, it was good. If your student is motivated, loves the piece, and has some natural ability, you should try it. From the experience with my son, I learned that there will be times of great frustration. Just be prepared for that. It took about 2 months to get past the first page. His teacher insisted on accurate playing and staying with the piano (I accompany him and attend each lesson).

During that first page, I thought the teacher was crazy and that my son was not ready for such a difficult piece. But he eventually got it, and the following pages came a lot more easily. There was only one other section that gave him trouble, because of shifting.

Initially, he was only working on the concerto (the hard one). But, I asked his teacher if he could do a few easier things for those times when he was too frustrated to keep practicing that one. So, he would also work on things at level 3 or 4. He also plays in the school orchestra, so he receives more structured, methodical training there. I teach him some piano/musical concepts, too, when he asks me for help.

Overall, learning the concerto was great for my son. It was hard and took a while, but he has gained a lot of confidence in being able to play it. Having me accompany him all the time has proved genius in the teacher, because his ability to listen, collaborate, and play in tempo is good.

If you try it with your student, just don't push too hard. Let him go at his own pace and be VERY encouraging. Remind him all the time that it is a piece adults and/or advanced players learn. Give him lots of praise. Take breaks if he needs it. And, I agree with the others to do easier things, too.

Good luck!

[gerryjay]

dear john,
i don't believe in programs, of any kind. so, i think your in the right direction provided you keep your feedback channels wide open.

i had any kind of student i might imagine. some of them were really gifted, and some among this gifted ones just jump from level to level without any problem. for instance, it makes me remember a pupil that started very normally, the same mom-and-dad-pieces, some technical work, some simple chamber parts. then his learning rate begin to increase, and we covered a broad repertoire very quickly. by the end of his first year he was playing mozart's 545, a chopin valse, some villa-lobos.

the question was: he was able to do so. it was nothing about me as a teacher, and it provided me nothing to work with other students. because, in my humble opinion, that's the problem and the challenge: after his lesson, i probably had a normal student, who would struggle with basics. try to push this one would result in suffering and - sometimes - in injury.

best!