Feldenkrais and Rotation

[keyboardclass]

Is it a coincidence that these two people have their knuckles forward?



I was told by a Feldenkrais teacher (A. Fraser actually) that the natural position of the knuckles is the one we use in piano playing - i.e. there's no need to pronate at the wrist as the whole arm naturally pronates at the shoulder.  I hope he's wrong because I certainly disagree.

Here's more from Anat Baniel:


Can you honestly say someone hasn't told them to face knuckles forward?  Some pretty pronounced neck protractions too!

[mike1127]

You seem to be talking about the position of the hands when the arms hang down, in which protraction/retraction of the shoulders tends to rotate the whole arm, but what about playing the piano? When you bend your elbows at 90 degrees then protraction/retraction tends to swing your arms left and right. I don't get the relevance of the natural position of the hand while hanging. Perhaps you misinterpreted what Alan Fraiser said.

As far as the people in the class, they look like ordinary people. Most people don't hang their arms down very often, so they are a little awkward when asked to do so. More than half of people I meet protract their head.

If there is a relevant point, it's that the teacher is NOT asking these people to force a change in posture, which is counterproductive (according to what I've learned). Alexander teachers in particular can tell stories about how much people brace their neck when they are asked to make a conscious change in posture, and how it just adds tension.

The teacher is probably asking them to sense their balance and quality of movement. Most people get a little introspective when they first do this, and can move "oddly" as they do it. However, the goal of the lesson is to make a deep change in the nervous system which can be carried spontaneously back into life.

[keyboardclass]

Yes, with the elbows at a 90 degree angle shoulder rotation is impossible (well, your elbows just stick out).  I don't think Fraser understood that.  If you play like this famous picture of Brahms you can:


When the hand/arm is hanging in the bent forward posture the scapulas are pulled apart by the weight of the arms/shoulder.  This allows the shoulder joint to rotate causing the knuckles to face forward.  As you unbend the shoulders the scaplas must be allowed to come back together.  This brings your arms to the side not partially to the front as in the above pictures.  What does Feldenkrais say about that?  I'm genuinely interested.  In fact I'll re-read my Awareness Through Movement today!  I've already noticed he says the muscles at the back of the neck (neck extensors - mostly splenius) must be active (pg 71).

The video is obviously of Anat Banil's students - I think they know the ropes.

[lostinidlewonder]

Yes, with the elbows at a 90 degree angle shoulder rotation is impossible (well, your elbows just stick out).  I don't think Fraser understood that.  If you play like this famous picture of Brahms you can:

This image has such terrible clarity, I mean really, it is a black blob we are looking at. Oh and it's hand drawn........ Look at the feet, it looks like hes coming to a skidding stop after being pushed towards the piano sliding on ice.

[keyboardclass]

Willy von Beckerath (1868-1938).  If you have nothing to add please add nothing.

[lostinidlewonder]

Willy von Beckerath (1868-1938).  If you have nothing to add please add nothing.

Wow Brahms outlined his hands with black ink, I wonder why he did that. If it is a photograph it has been edited. Nothing mean silence, absence of any thought or idea, I don't see how me complaining about the shitty photo you post trying to highlight something pianistic is void of any thought process, maybe you don't like hearing it, but that is another issue.

[mike1127]

keyboardclass: if you really want to understand Feldenkrais, you need to understand the framework, the gestalt, the application. You are just picking isolated bits and pieces, which isn't very interesting to me. If you want to explore the big picture, I'll be glad to help.

[keyboardclass]

I have had a Feldenkrais session in a class situation and read (and am re-reading) Awareness Through Movement.  If you wish me to desist in making claims about Feldenkrais which I know I've been told of yes, you can help.  I still see rounded shoulders everywhere in Feldenkrais.  Have you perhaps vids/pics of straight shoulders that could dispel my impression?  You can keep saying that it's all a dynamic process but that doesn't negate the fact that all movement must start from stillness.  Or doesn't FM do stillness?   

[keyboardclass]

Here's Fraser in The Craft of Piano Playing:

At one point in my Feldenkrais training we did a series of lessons designed to free up movement in the shoulders.  Before these lessons most of us stood wth palms facing inwards.  But by the end almost all of us were standing with our thumbs aligned along our pant seams, palms pointing to the rear.

I didn't make it up!

[mike1127]

I'm not going to spend time trying to find pics or videos of straight shoulders. The main reason is that the very notion is contrary to the essence of Feldenkrais. Nothing like a preferred position of the shoulders was taught in 500 hours of training, not in the sense you are using it.

The FM has a lot to teach about stillness. The interrelationship of movement to stillness is very interesting.

Suppose I lie on the floor and try to relax. Parts of me will contact the floor, and parts of me won't. There may be differences between the left and right sides; for instance, my shoulder blades my lie differently. Maybe the right one lies flatter. There will be a space under my neck and under my lower back. Lying on the floor should require zero tension, and perhaps I feel relatively relaxed.

Now suppose I do a movement-awareness lesson. During this lesson, I experiment with different ways of coordinating my shoulders, torso, pelvis and so on. I do some basic movements such as folding of the trunk. During the course of the lesson, these movements get easier and smoother.

Now I lie flat on the floor again. Most likely, I will lie flatter. My shoulder blades will be more flat. There will be less space under my neck and under my lower back.

I will feel supported by the floor. That is the language we use frequently: we speak of the ability to take support from the floor. Even if I felt relaxed the first time and didn't perceive that any effort was required to lie there, most likely I will be awakened to the contrast. I will be aware that previously I was actively holding parts of myself away from the floor.

I learn a little bit each time I do a lesson like this, and over time my ability to take support from the floor improves.

You may wonder what the relationship of lying on the floor is to sitting upright at the piano. The ability to take support from the floor is directly related to the ability to balance upright with a lightness and readiness for action. Improve one and you improve the other.

Just as movement emerges from stillness, stillness emerges from movement. To make this clearer, imagine that I am lying on an uneven surface. Suppose I want to allow each part of me to sink onto the part of the surface below it. That means some parts need to sink more than others. It will require a certain way of coordinating movement in order to arrive at that position. If I have major limitations in how I can coordinate the relative motions of my pelvis, trunk, shoulders, and so forth, I may find it impossible to make the necessary movement to arrive at a place of true rest.

Stillness is something I move into. Limitations in my ability to move are limitations in my ability to move into a stillness that is balanced, light, and ready for action.

[mike1127]

Here's Fraser in The Craft of Piano Playing:

At one point in my Feldenkrais training we did a series of lessons designed to free up movement in the shoulders.  Before these lessons most of us stood wth palms facing inwards.  But by the end almost all of us were standing with our thumbs aligned along our pant seams, palms pointing to the rear.

I didn't make it up!

I think what is most relevant here is that no one told him how he should face his palms. That was something that emerged spontaneously from doing the lesson. He probably says at some point that this lesson facilitated his ability to hold his hands in the playing position at the keyboard with less effort. Isn't that the key thing?

[keyboardclass]

Yes but the palms do not naturally face 'to the rear'! Surely given that, it's a poor posture if they do?

[mike1127]

Yes but the palms do not naturally face 'to the rear'! Surely given that, it's a poor posture if they do?

I think I need to know more about what you mean by "poor posture." The most common societal notion of "poor posture" is the idea that you look unattractive and that it somehow contributes to poor performance or injury, but exactly how this happens is never stated.

I need to know more specifics about what you mean by it. In particular, what is the effect of poor posture? How does it manifest itself in playing? What are the consequences of it and how do those consequences come about?

And how does the posture of standing with the arms at the side relate to the act of piano playing, which uses a different position?

[keyboardclass]

Yes, poor posture does look unattractive though it's more the case good posture is aesthetically pleasing (like those two kids I posted).  You see it instantly with an instinctive eye - you see that's how it should be.  Here they are again:



Now can you imaging how they'd look sloped shouldered?  (which is what they'd have to do to turn palms to the rear).  It's not how they (or we) were made.  Playing the piano requires temporary pronating of the forearms - that's the only difference.  If you play like Brahms above then you can pronate from the shoulder as Fraser recommends but it is also temporary!  

[mike1127]

Now can you imaging how they'd look sloped shouldered?  (which is what they'd have to do to turn palms to the rear).  

Standing, I can turn my palms to the rear in any shoulder position via forearm rotation. Where do you get that turning palms to the rear requires shoulder protraction or rotation?

You haven't answered the rest of my questions. You haven't answered how a standing position relates to the act of playing the piano, because when you bend the elbows it changes the relationship of shoulder movements to hand position.

And explain more about what "temporary" relates to.

[keyboardclass]

I haven't answered all your questions because you have so many!  Can we establish that the children's posture is aesthetically pleasing?  And further more that we have evolved to find it so?

[mike1127]

Yes, I think children often have elegant posture because it hasn't been beaten out of them yet by school and the various knocks and bruises of life. I do think that hands at the side looks more relaxed to me than hands at front if we are looking just at the pictures you've posted, but I think you've been selective.

But what's even more important is how children move, often with a lightly balanced spine and head.

[keyboardclass]

I haven't been at all selective!  I've spend hours on Flickr - do you have any idea how seldom people take pictures of profiles?

Good, I think we agree on children's posture.  I'm a school teacher and although I'm not primary I can tell you around age 7 or 8 it all starts to go wrong.

The point about protracting the scapula rather than forearm is Fraser's not mine.  He says above a relaxed shoulder gives you palms facing rear.  The only way to do that at the shoulder is to have the scapula move away from the spine.  Do it for piano playing purposes if you wish but it is not natural nor should it become habitual in your posture.  In my book and looking at those children it is 100% wrong agreed?

[mike1127]

I haven't been at all selective!  I've spend hours on Flickr - do you have any idea how seldom people take pictures of profiles?

Maybe so.

The point about protracting the scapula rather than forearm is Fraser's not mine.  He says above a relaxed shoulder gives you palms facing rear.

I don't see that in what he wrote. He said that doing a lesson designed to free up movements in the shoulder changed the hand position, but that doesn't mean his shoulder took a different position afterward. It means it was lighter and freer in whatever position it was in. If his hand was in a different position, that could have resulted from a change in forearm pronation. Lessons have widespread effects. No lesson affects only one joint. Or maybe his shoulders were habitually retracted before the lesson.

I have to run, but I'll respond to your final question later today.

[keyboardclass]

Here's Fraser's previous paragraph:

'However if your arms hang by your side with your palms turned inward and thumbs pointing forward as most of ours normally do they are not at rest!  It is unnecessary habitual muscle contractions in the shoulder that keep them there.'
He goes on to call it an 'unnatural and ingrained habit'. 

[mike1127]

Here's Fraser's previous paragraph:

'However if your arms hang by your side with your palms turned inward and thumbs pointing forward as most of ours normally do they are not at rest!  It is unnecessary habitual muscle contractions in the shoulder that keep them there.'
He goes on to call it an 'unnatural and ingrained habit'. 

I have a different experience than Fraser; my palms face backward naturally but I feel that my shoulders are a bit protracted/rotated habitually, and a more relaxed position rotates my palms a little toward my body.

But let's try to explore the relationship of this to piano playing or to any action. I want a free shoulder, in the sense that no co-contraction (squeezing) is needed to position it, in any position.

I think you are making reference to the notion that joints should be kept near the center of their range as much as possible. My experience has never pointed to that. I would say that joints need to be under as little compression as possible, and once they are not under compression they can move anywhere, and hang out anywhere, without harm.

To me, the significant thing that Fraser is writing is "I was habitually in position X; but I learned I could take position Y WITHOUT EFFORT, and without anyone telling me I should do so."

Whatever your idea of good movement is, that's only half the story. The other half is how you would teach it to someone. One of the unique strengths of the Feldenkrais Method is this indirect teaching via awareness. It's not just particularly "good" or "fast" or whatever---it results in a qualitatively different experience (quite dramatic) than anything I could achieve by consciously trying to follow a model.

[lostinidlewonder]

This thread should be in the anything but piano section.

[stevebob]

This thread should be in the anything but piano section.

Why is that?  I searched for past discussions containing the term Feldenkrais, and not a single one was in the Anything But Piano subforum.  I wonder what distinguishes this thread.

[keyboardclass]

I have a different experience than Fraser; my palms face backward naturally but I feel that my shoulders are a bit protracted/rotated habitually, and a more relaxed position rotates my palms a little toward my body...

the significant thing that Fraser is writing is "I was habitually in position X; but I learned I could take position Y WITHOUT EFFORT, and without anyone telling me I should do so."

There seems a contradiction here.  I agree with the first statement.  Therefore the second statement must be wrong - if your palms face back there is EFFORT going on to bring that about protraction.

You are right about awareness - there's no need for a model.  There is though a need to understand some physiology i.e. how a particular joint functions so you have an idea what you are being aware of.

So I know you hate this question but is Fraser right or wrong?  Do the palms natural face the rear?  In the majority?

[mike1127]

There seems a contradiction here.  I agree with the first statement.  Therefore the second statement must be wrong - if your palms face back there is EFFORT going on to bring that about protraction.

Don't quite follow your statement here.

It's good to be able to take any position without effort, but we must be careful how we define "effort." Most people involve a lot of co-contraction in their movement; that is, unnecessary squeezing and clenching. They interpret the sensation of that as the sign they are getting something done. When they first drop the unnecessary internal friction, all movements can potentially feel effortless. Fraser is describing the sensation of accessing a previously closed-off territory. Previously he could not bring his palms back without a sensation of effort, and now he could. His options were expanded.

And that's what is relevant to playing piano.

EDIT: maybe I should clarify that because Fraser described what seemed to be a fairly strongly-held habit of positioning his hands palms-inward, I was assuming that prior to the lesson he experienced that as the most neutral, without-sensation-of-effort position. In my own experience, deviating from a highly limited habitual position always feels like an effort at first. By discovering a new sensed-as-neutral position, he could adopt it without a sensation of effort. But however I define all these terms, before we get too bogged down in this, what I think is key is that Fraser is describing an experience that afforded him a new option.

So I know you hate this question but is Fraser right or wrong?  Do the palms natural face the rear?  In the majority?

I'll answer this question if you promise to explain what this has to do with playing piano.

The answer is: I don't have wide enough access to a large population to determine the majority. I described myself for you.

Now what does this have to do with playing piano?

[keyboardclass]

As far as Fraser is concerned it has all to do with piano playing (it's one of the central planks of his method).  He says the knuckles are naturally in the right position to play (coming from his assumption that the palms naturally face to the rear).  This, as I believe you've pointed out, is fallacious the moment you bend your elbow.

'It's good to be able to take any position without effort' - agreed, but one position takes less or more effort than another.  Or is that our disagreement?

[mike1127]

As far as Fraser is concerned it has all to do with piano playing (it's one of the central planks of his method).  He says the knuckles are naturally in the right position to play (coming from his assumption that the palms naturally face to the rear).  This, as I believe you've pointed out, is fallacious the moment you bend your elbow.

I don't have his book, but if he is a Feldenkrais teacher, then I don't see how a single observation about a joint position could be a "central plank" of his method. If the book is influenced by Feldenkrais, then it would probably include a variety of Awareness Through Movement lessons which use the type of directed awareness and sequencing of movements that is the hallmark of ATM. It would probably establish things like balancing on your sitz bones, and sensing the contribution of your whole body, as fundamentals. It would talk a lot about organization of movement as a primary focus, and trust that things like joint positions largely take care of themselves.

'It's good to be able to take any position without effort' - agreed, but one position takes less or more effort than another.  Or is that our disagreement?

Definitely some positions take more effort, but that whole notion can also become a distraction from understanding the dynamics of movement. For instance, if you believe that the shoulders should stay neutral, you may impose that in an artificial manner on the organization of your hand movements. It would be better to allow your shoulders to move. And in my view, it's far more important to wake up a student to their own sensations so that they can guide themselves into easier positions, rather than instructing them where they should position themselves.

What I think I disagree with is your emphasis.

[mike1127]

PS. I didn't ask Fraser what it has to do with playing piano. I asked YOU what it has to do with playing piano.

[keyboardclass]

A central plank in that that is how he says the knuckles become horizontal when playing - there is no need for rotation (pronation).  Here he is on Matthay:

'Matthay postulated that we cannot even play one note without first rotating our hand from its 'natural' vertical position with our palm turned inward to the horizontal with our palm laying flat.  For Matthay this rotation to the horizontal was a departure from the neutral 'at rest' state.'  

Fraser is saying through Feldenkrais he's learnt that the natural position EVEN WHEN PLAYING (i.e. elbows bent) is palms facing the rear (down when forearms are horizontal).  This is just physiological wrong.

'Definitely some positions take more effort, but that whole notion can also become a distraction from understanding the dynamics of movement' - certainly any fixed good position is not very useful but it is a position you constantly need to be passing through.  As Feldenkrais says:

' ...good upright posture is that from which a minimum muscular effort will move the body with equal ease in any desired direction'  - sloped (protracted) shoulders restrict direction.

PS. I didn't ask Fraser what it has to do with playing piano. I asked YOU what it has to do with playing piano.

What has what to do with piano playing?

But let's try to explore the relationship of this to piano playing or to any action. I want a free shoulder, in the sense that no co-contraction (squeezing) is needed to position it, in any position.

There's always co-contraction.  The art is in attaining an efficient level.

[mike1127]

A central plank in that that is how he says the knuckles become horizontal when playing - there is no need for rotation (pronation).  Here he is on Matthay:

'Matthay postulated that we cannot even play one note without first rotating our hand from its 'natural' vertical position with our palm turned inward to the horizontal with our palm laying flat.  For Matthay this rotation to the horizontal was a departure from the neutral 'at rest' state.'  

Fraser is saying through Feldenkrais he's learnt that the natural position EVEN WHEN PLAYING (i.e. elbows bent) is palms facing the rear (down when forearms are horizontal).  This is just physiological wrong.

This is what I'm asking about... so let's say Fraser is wrong. How do you think that affects his piano playing?

There's always co-contraction.  The art is in attaining an efficient level.

My understanding is that some co-contraction is needed for stabilization, but what I was taught is that the deep stabilizer muscles handle that, guided by unconscious reflexes.

I would say there's more than just a "level" of co-contraction, but a variety of qualitative flavors. I have some idea of when I'm co-contracting voluntary skeletal muscles, and that particular flavor of sensation is probably an excellent guide telling me I'm working harder that necessary. The qualitative flavor of acting from a more sub-cortical level is astonishing.

So let's try to figure out where we came from. You were saying that an idea about a joint position is central to the Feldenkrais Method. I tried to clarify that 99% of the FM is about organization of movement, or really organization of any action, and FM includes a method for improving that organization gracefully and indirectly.

If it turns out that Fraser made an incorrect statement, that doesn't change what 99% of FM is about.

I also described one view of the relationship of stillness to movement. I'm curious if you have any thoughts about that.

[keyboardclass]

Is this 'incorrect' too:

Matthay, Moshe and Movement

Tobias Matthay postulated that we cannot even play one note without first exerting a certain effort to rotate our hand from its ‘natural’ vertical position with our palm turned inward, to the horizontal with our palm lying flat. However, it is unnecessary habitual muscle contractions in the shoulder area that keep our hands vertical when ‘at rest’. There exist a series of Feldenkrais lessons that allow the hand to arrive at its true position of rest, by cultivating the cessation of involuntary efforts in the shoulder. Conclusion: a more comprehensive understanding of human movement can prevent inaccurate perceptions from leading us to faulty deductions.

from: https://alanfraser.net/books-dvds/the-craft-of-piano-playing/synopsis/

By 'true position' he means palms facing down when at the piano.

Now I will admit that perhaps I'm coming across a bit Fraser obsessed but when a self-proclaimed Feldenkrais practitioner tells you that the palms naturally face to the rear and there are Feldenkrais exercises that will bring that about you'd tend to think it was Feldenkrais canon.   The initial pictures above would seem to bear that out.   Is it any wonder for the last ten years I've thought that?  Having had a piano lesson, lecture and Feldenkrais lesson from the man?   Not to mention buying the book and watching the DVD!   Then you see children and they don't.

[mike1127]

It seems like you are getting stuck on the word "true." If he wrote this:


"There exist a series of Feldenkrais lessons that allow the hand to arrive at a position of rest, by cultivating the cessation of involuntary efforts in the shoulder "

Then I have no reason not to believe that.

Why not do the lessons and find out if your playing improves?

The Feldenkrais Method is about active exploration. Talking about it can be interesting, but it's no substitute for taking action.

Looking at the synopsis you linked to, I see that the book contains at least a hundred other ideas.

EDIT: I'm surprised to learn that you so easily found a pattern of hand position in pictures of Feldenkrais students, not to mention head protraction and all the rest. The only thing I can think is that Feldenkrais is unique (differs STRONGLY from Alexander is this regard) in acknowledging the postural quirks we all develop, and working with them rather than directly confronting them. I believe it is possible to be well-organized and move with efficiency even while having some positional quirks. Although Alexander students may look more upright (some would say like a broomstick was rammed up their ***) there are some downsides to that. One that I experienced when I took Alexander lessons was a feeling of loss of my own personality.

[keyboardclass]

"There exist a series of Feldenkrais lessons that allow the hand to arrive at a position of rest, by cultivating the cessation of involuntary efforts in the shoulder "

Of course!  ...and the position of rest is with the palms facing the rear is what Fraser is saying, which just is not the case.

...I believe it is possible to be well-organized and move with efficiency even while having some positional quirks. Although Alexander students may look more upright (some would say like a broomstick was rammed up their ***) there are some downsides to that.

And that's where we disagree.  The idea that joints are going to 'free up' when they are mechanically disadvantaged is misguided.    You seem to be saying one should learn to work with a poor posture.

One that I experienced when I took Alexander lessons was a feeling of loss of my own personality.

 The most interesting observation yet, not something that would bother me though.

[mike1127]

So did any of the lessons in the book help your playing?

[keyboardclass]

Sorry Mike, I assumed you weren't there - I kept editing.  Do have another read.  Fraser's book?  No it's built on poorly understood premises of Tai Chi (I studied privately for two years with a doctor from Beijing) and Feldenkrais.  Here is the only review which glimpses as it is https://www.piano-hands.com/sites.htm  A quick google will show his real skill is self promotion!

As far as doing lessons, I think I understand what Feldenkrais is all about - it's an extension of Edmund Jacobson's work.

[mike1127]

I think this conversation isn't productive so this will be my last post.

Let me just summarize Feldenkrais and the relevance to piano.

It's actually very hard to sum up the FM because it's a large set of ideas that have synergy. There is a particular flavor to this combination, which I think is unique, although looking at individual ideas within the FM you can see many come from older practices.

The FM is about re-conceiving of action. It's about improving the organization of movement, which means involving all of oneself in a coordinated way. A pianist might discover that their feet are relevant to playing piano.

A position of rest is something that one "moves into," so improving the coordination of action improves the restfulness of rest.

And of most importance, it's an indirect approach. Improvement of action is something that emerges spontaneously from increased awareness. It's about trusting the nervous system as a whole, and becoming aware that concepts and ideas and the ego are only a small part of a much larger, and very wise, nervous system.

It's about changing so that you feel more like you, not like anyone's model of what you should do.

It's about non-intuitive and non-conventional ways of learning, like "going with" your deep-set habits, asymmetries, preferences of position, rather than going against them. It's about seeing the wisdom in this paradox, not dismissing it because it seems counter-intuitive.

It's more about expanding options than deciding which options are best. It's about finding a sensation of freedom, in which there are many possibilities. Not only are there more possibilities of movement, but there are more creative options in music-making.

It about "acture", not posture.

[keyboardclass]

Surely that goes for all teaching?  It's certainly how I teach piano!

And I suppose if we're finishing, I can't help thinking some of these people are closer to having it sorted compared to the sad examples at the top of the thread!:

[mike1127]

I did my best to represent my point of view--- maybe you guys could do the same for your points of view. Write a few paragraphs that outline your approach. Or if you feel that words cannot do it justice, give us a hint about why.

[keyboardclass]

As I intimated, most of what you've written is just common teacher sense.  I do disagree with this though:

It's about non-intuitive and non-conventional ways of learning, like "going with" your deep-set habits, asymmetries, preferences of position, rather than going against them. It's about seeing the wisdom in this paradox, not dismissing it because it seems counter-intuitive.

If you meant work into your habits to find a way to then work out of them I agree.  If you meant accepting them then no.  

The whole thing comes over pretty gobbledygooky in words.  As describing any good practice would be.  So Fraser is neither right nor wrong?  I should'a guessed that.

[mike1127]

So are you going to post a summary of your approach?

[keyboardclass]

It's like you said - It can't be summarized.  I believe there's a way nature intended us to stand and it doesn't vary from person to person.  Your shoulders hang down your back.  Rounded shoulders mean stretched rhomboids and that means a hump by the time you're 60.  The pelvis hangs off the femura by the iliofemoral ligament so there's a little tighten in the lower abs to achieve this.  The head doesn't balance - it hangs off the nuchal ligament.  There' a bit of tension in the splenius group which allows this to happen.  All these things those children are doing.  None of this is a system or method - It is just how the body's made.  

[mike1127]

The method is in how you get to this ideal state you describe. Do you have a method? It occurs to me that you've been silent on this point all through this discussion. So how do you get there?

[keyboardclass]

Any way you like.  Even Feldenkrais!  So no, I have no method though I call it Grindea II as it's a pre Grindea Technique for those who don't have the ability to just 'order' or 'allow' their body into a healthy posture.   The crux I suppose is that the vast majority of people have their agonist/antagonist balance wrong.  So knowing where tension should be rather than where it shouldn't seems the key to me.

[mike1127]

So you have no method, but it has a name?

Okay, you know where the tension should be and where it shouldn't be--- so what do you do with this knowledge?

[keyboardclass]

You don't be afraid to put tension where it should be, the meanwhile scanning for tension where it shouldn't be.  I mostly do it through yoga.  Whereas most yoga doers concentrate on the stretch side I concentrate on the side that should be relaxed.   As in this posture:

I would drop the right arm and spend equal time scanning the right side for lack of tension as I spent scanning the left side for stretch from head to toe.

[keyboardclass]

...or this one I have my elbows at 45 degrees as otherwise it's stressing the rhomboids:

[mike1127]

So what I notice is that nowhere do you talk about organization for action. You illustrate your ideas with still photographs, use the word "posture" a lot, and talk about yoga which focuses more on stillness than on movement.

[keyboardclass]

If your agonist/antagonist balance is right then action flows freely. Take walking for instance.  The first movement is a slight (measured in millimeters) fall of the shoulder diagonal to the leg you're about to use.  If you don't start from stillness and with tension in the right places it's not possible.  Walking starts with this tiny letting go.  Now you can call that movement if you like but you're not as such moving anything, gravity is.  You could say movement is the dance with gravity.  I wouldn't see it on the level of joints as Feldenkraisers would appear to.

[mike1127]

Now it's getting a little more interesting because you described initiating action. (a slight fall of the shoulder toward the diagonal leg). But when one finds oneself in a a situation and needs to act, there are a million possible arrangements of the situation. One is almost never just standing still, waiting for the right moment to step in precisely the right direction using precisely the right shoulder drop. One might be sitting and need to reach behind oneself for something. one might be already walking and need to change direction or reach for a mobile phone. One might be startled by something and then need to act quickly. One might be deeply engrossed in ongoing activity during which there is no apparent pause. (Like... piano playing!)

How do you get from observations about initiating a single step under ideal conditions to working with complex, immersive, intense, and continuously ongoing movement?

[keyboardclass]

You can only initialize movement.  The body schema does the rest so the thing is not to interfere.  If you are in the habit of interfering, which nearly everyone is, you need to go slowly - you (the body image) can help by sensing the impact of gravity on your body whilst your body schema is also doing the same.  Help it concentrate - sing from the same hymn sheet! (gravity)  They interact.  Trouble is body image is a poor listener while body schema is too obedient - anything for a peaceful life!