Technique exercices for stronger wrists

[keyboardclass]

...obviously essential. Well 'strain' is putting it a bit strongly, but whether you like it or not you use the muscles around the wrist to keep the hand in roughly the right place every time you press a key on the piano, apart from the very rare occasion where (for visual effect, probably) you manage to use just the weight of the hand.

The point is that with good technique you use these muscles very briefly and it doesn't actually feel as if you're using them, but it seems to me self-evident that you use them or your hand would end up pointing at the ceiling.

Agreed.

[lostinidlewonder]

The back of your hand and your forearm should be parallel i.e. the angle of your wrist should be 180 degrees.  If you are using arm weight/muscle the wrist will start much higher, drop, the relax level with the forearm.

Is this silent vid any help?  It illustrates scratching and gripping (wrist 180 degrees), flicking, and 'dropping and flopping'.

? This is even worse than the broomstick posture.

[nyiregyhazi]

Richard- could you clarify what you mean by the hand pointing at the ceiling? Kbk was talking about using these muscles to stop the wrist getting pulled up- not to stop it collapsing downward. If you meant the wrist dropping down (which this would seem to mean), then I'm not sure what kbk thinks he "agrees" with. This is exactly why you don't need to strain against the reaction forces that pull the wrist up when using finger actions- because the weight of the arm means that release of muscles in the shoulder and elbow will be pulling the wrist back and down into alignment. This release is more than enough to counter reaction forces from the keyboard without needless straining in the wrist. If you're talking about the wrist rising up (as kbk was), what happened to gravity? Is the whole upper arm a single locked up structure that does not act upon the wrist in any way?

The only time the wrist muscles are the exclusive means of keeping the hand aligned is when you are only supporting the arm at the shoulder end- ie. not contacting the keyboard. As soon as you contact something at the finger end, the mechanics become radically different. As I illustrate in my recent blog post, even a corpse's arm can be suspended with a fully aligned wrist- when it is supported by a small force at the finger end.

[thalbergmad]

All of this piano science is completely above my level of knowledge, but I cannot help wondering if it is attempting to apply rules to a process where one size definately does not fit all.

If you made a personal list of the top 20 pianists of all time, do they all play in the same fashion??. Similarly, if you look at the top 20 javelin throwers of all time, do they all have the same technique??

Indeed, the method is vastly different, but they all throw the javelin a bloody long way.

Thal

[pianisten1989]

Does it look like I'm playing louder than mf?

Oh, so you're going to make a career playing mf and under?

Ofc you should use your fingers. Saying anything else would be stupid. But why use Only the finger, then you have waaay bigger muscles in the arms? Try playing the dantesonata without the arm weight. Or try playing any longer work without arms or even your hand, but only with your fingers.

All of this piano science is completely above my level of knowledge, but I cannot help wondering if it is attempting to apply rules to a process where one size definately does not fit all.

If you made a personal list of the top 20 pianists of all time, do they all play in the same fashion??. Similarly, if you look at the top 20 javelin throwers of all time, do they all have the same technique??

Indeed, the method is vastly different, but they all throw the javelin a bloody long way.

Thal

Ofc, but no javeli thrower would stand completely still and throw only with his arm...

[stevebob]

All of this piano science is completely above my level of knowledge, but I cannot help wondering if it is attempting to apply rules to a process where one size definately does not fit all.

If you made a personal list of the top 20 pianists of all time, do they all play in the same fashion??. Similarly, if you look at the top 20 javelin throwers of all time, do they all have the same technique??

Indeed, the method is vastly different, but they all throw the javelin a bloody long way.

Thal

I couldn't agree more.  I don't question the validity of knowledge about, or interest in, kinesiology as a scientific discipline, but it's hard to understand how it can be prescriptive rather than merely descriptive.

Is it realistic to imagine that anyone could play (practice, perform, etc.) in a natural and organic way while ruminating about how his or her physiology is functioning?  I understand the need for awareness, but we're not constantly aware of breathing or blinking our eyes.  And hyperawareness (of tension, for example) can't be productive, can it?  I think that a preoccupation with tension is likely to induce tension.

[nyiregyhazi]

All of this piano science is completely above my level of knowledge, but I cannot help wondering if it is attempting to apply rules to a process where one size definately does not fit all.

If you made a personal list of the top 20 pianists of all time, do they all play in the same fashion??. Similarly, if you look at the top 20 javelin throwers of all time, do they all have the same technique??

Indeed, the method is vastly different, but they all throw the javelin a bloody long way.

Thal

And all along a very similar trajectory. Due to the laws of physics, there's a rather small range of trajectories that allows for optimal distance. Throw the javelin too steeply or too flat and you can be the strongest guy in the world but you will achieve a pitiful lack of distance.

Piano playing is also governed by the laws of physics. If you have any specific disagreement with any points raised then I'd be interested to hear more about them. There's more than one way to play is an argument I hear frequently- but where do I say there is a single correct way to play in the blog? I do not. However, I do explain why certain approaches are self-limiting due to being at odds with the laws of physics and why certain approaches allow for a whole lot more. Everything on the piano is governed by possibility. The more we understand what defines possibility, the closer we can come to its limits. A whole lot of standard explanations are riddled with self-contradiction and impossible premises. Using basic mechanics to identify goals which were impossible and to gain a clearer understanding of what really goes on has done wonders for my technique and self-awareness.

[thalbergmad]

Piano playing is also governed by the laws of physics.

If that is so, I give up now.

No doubt your knoweldge exceeds mine a million fold, but I prefer to play rather than take a microscope to the methods I use.

I have met people like you before and I am jealous of your intelligence, however, you would die of thirst whilst studying a pint of beer. I would drink it.

Thal

[countrymath]

loved this one

[richard black]

but assuming these muscles are the sole means of stabilisation is inherently untrue. Focusing on those muscles as the sole means of stability leads to a lot of wasted effort

Yes, agree with that.

The only reason I posted, really, is that far too often these discussions appear to degenerate into completely black and white - it's this or that, no in-between - when in reality these things are almost invariably a bit of this, bit of that, bit of the other (in this case, wrist muscles, arm muscles, weight, etc. etc.). It's important to remember that there's a difference between scratching your backside and tearing great lumps out of it!

[nyiregyhazi]

If that is so, I give up now.

No doubt your knoweldge exceeds mine a million fold, but I prefer to play rather than take a microscope to the methods I use.

I have met people like you before and I am jealous of your intelligence, however, you would die of thirst whilst studying a pint of beer. I would drink it.

Thal

Actually I would drink it- and I'll thank you not to speak on my behalf. Drinking beer is an easy task to perform to a extremely high standard. If I found myself frequently spilling most of it, I'd certainly study the process and seek to improve it until I had mastered it. Do you play to the level of the greatest artists of all time? I certainly do not- which is why I seek to improve both my musicality and my means of controlling the sounds that come out of a piano- by any means available. Until I'm not spilling a drop of the metaphorical pint of beer, I'll continue to explore the means of doing it better. I have not the slightest interest in anything that does not have practical consequences that enable me to "just play" to a higher standard.

As a teacher you sometimes see a rather talented student who takes the view that you should "just play". I had one who was actually playing rather advanced pieces reasonably well. However, week after week nothing improved. Whether I spoke of movement, musicality, rhythm, shape or whatever, he would go away and come back the next week playing exactly the same. Sadly, no matter what I did in the lesson (and no matter how much he seemed to have started grasping it), nothing could get make him go beyond just playing through music from start to finish. He could never pick up the habit of actually assessing his actions either physically or musically so sadly he just reached a dead-end. Nothing ever began to flow naturally- either in technique or musical results.

[thalbergmad]

Do you play to the level of the greatest artists of all time?

I do not, and I wonder if those great artists analysed their mechanisms to the minutest detail to achieve such high standards.

No doubt our javelin thrower might cover himself in electrodes and hook himself up to a computer to see if there is any way he could improve, but would a pianist do this??

If they do, I am talking out of my arse which is nothing new.

Thal

[keyboardclass]

If that is so, I give up now.

No doubt your knoweldge exceeds mine a million fold, but I prefer to play rather than take a microscope to the methods I use.

I have met people like you before and I am jealous of your intelligence, however, you would die of thirst whilst studying a pint of beer. I would drink it.

Thal

I shouldn't be concerned.  He doesn't know the first thing about physics.

[thalbergmad]

Drinking beer is an easy task to perform to a extremely high standard.

I respectfully and strongly disagree.

It takes years.

Thal

[nyiregyhazi]

I do not, and I wonder if those great artists analysed their mechanisms to the minutest detail to achieve such high standards.

No doubt our javelin thrower might cover himself in electrodes and hook himself up to a computer to see if there is any way he could improve, but would a pianist do this??

If they do, I am talking out of my arse which is nothing new.

Thal

You're talking about this as if it's black and white. It's not simply "just do it" or "wire yourself up to electrodes". Why paint such an absurd picture? Where do you draw the line? Is any teacher who ever says the first thing about technique too busy staring at a beer to drink it?

Also, why follow the model of natural talents? Natural talents were lucky enough to have the gift of doing things anyway. For those who don't have such a gift there are two options- stick with whatever level you play at already and "just play"- or find a find a means of improving yourself. I wasted years of my life trying to do the former and playing very poorly as a result.To follow the model of a genius without actually being one is not a recipe for progress. If anyone followed the model of Volodos, they would spend very little time practising at a piano at all. That which is not acquired by luck CAN still be developed.

Is "just play" your advice to the guy with a locked up wrist?

[nyiregyhazi]

I shouldn't be concerned.  He doesn't know the first thing about physics.

No doubt you can substantiate that? If there's a single instance of inaccurate physics in my blog, please cite it.

[thalbergmad]

You're talking about this as if it's black and white.

My intention is completely the opposite. My belief is that there are many paths to pianistic competence and as individuals, each one of us is going to take a slightly different route.

When you start applying the laws of physics to a piano playing mechanism and analyse every single minute movement, then you seem to be advocating that we must all take the same route.

Thal

[thalbergmad]

I shouldn't be concerned.  He doesn't know the first thing about physics.

There seems to be some kind of history between you two.

Thal

[thalbergmad]

Is "just play" your advice to the guy with a locked up wrist?

My advice to him would be to get a damned good teacher and beware of anything he reads on the internet, whether it be uninformed advice or pages of blogs.

Thal

[nyiregyhazi]

My intention is completely the opposite. My belief is that there are many paths to pianistic competence and as individuals, each one of us is going to take a slightly different route.

When you start applying the laws of physics to a piano playing mechanism and analyse every single minute movement, then you seem to be advocating that we must all take the same route.

Thal

So- in other words you are criticising based on conjecture rather than anything I actually said on there? We all have to abide by the same laws of physics. Nobody is exempt. That means that there's a limit to what is possible and what isn't. There are many good paths but there also many bad ones- which is why most pianists end up playing very badly compared to polished professionals. If you're looking to complain about dogmatic insistence on a very limited path, you're accusing the wrong person. I'm simply looking to clarify the rules through which nature has defined what is possible and what is not. Failing to take these things into account when trying to find a personal approach is about as wise as trying to find a personal approach to poker strategy without reading the rules first. Whether you do it by "feel" or understanding, if you don't respect the rules that everyone is limited by, you won't go far.

Rather than continue this argument against what I might have to say, could you either raise some specific points about what you object to or stop arguing against a strawman? Seriously- did you even read any of the articles I wrote before jumping to conclusions?

[thalbergmad]

There are many good paths but there also many bad ones- which is why most pianists end up playing very badly compared to polished professionals.

If everyone on this forum invokes the laws of physics and applies what is written in your blog, are we all going to become polished professionals??

Thal

[nyiregyhazi]

Once more- the implication being that either something has to either be totally worthless or magically transforms you into an instant pro? Do you believe everything in life is limited to two polarised extremes and that nothing consists of any middle ground? Do you also scoff at the idea of anyone taking piano lessons- sarcastically asking if they'll become a professional or not? Do you realise the irony of accusing me of one-size fits all thinking- when you are making a very standard and cliched one-size-fits-all criticism that has no bearing whatsoever on what I have actually written anywhere?

If you feel that there is no value in understanding the factors that determine what is possible, by all means don't read it. However, if you are intent on criticising what I am doing I think it's basic courtesy to read it first. If you'd like to do so, I'd be very interested in some specific feedback, as opposed to speculation. If you're not interested in it- why are you posting about something that does not interest you and which you have not read?

[richard black]

Nyiregyhazi (can we call you Andrew? - it's quicker to type!): I've had a read of your blog and you have some good points to make. I'm not sure you couldn't make them more succinctly in places, mind you, and even as a physicist (although I've earned my crust as a pianist for over a decade I'm actually qualified in physics) I had trouble following it in places.

As far as I can see, you have overlooked the role of inertia of the hand/arm/body. The fingers weigh very little and of course the keys of a piano don't weigh very much more. When the keys are depressed and released there is a low-pass filter effect applied by the inertial mass of the heavier bits of the player, which means that the muscles in the shoulder, for instance, don't generally have to react as fast as those in the fingers. This makes the analysis rather complicated.

In addition, there are all sorts of reasons for pushing and pulling in apparently bizarre directions. For instance, many pianists (me included) tend to 'pull the key towards them' (i.e. stroke the key from fallboard towards the player while pressing down) when playing quietly. The simple explanation of this is that it creates a diagonal trajectory for the finger of which the downward vector is a relatively small part, making it easier to control the downward velocity of the key.

Incidentally, I do occasionally play with almost complete finger isolation, resting the palm of my hand on the front of the keyboard and playing purely with fingers. Obviously this is tricky in anything fast and basically impossible in anything with large leaps, but when playing, for instance, the bass part of a baroque sonata accompaniment it works perfectly well. I'm typing exactly that way right now.

[thalbergmad]

Once more- the implication being that either something has to either be totally worthless or magically transforms you into an instant pro?

Once more, there was no such implication and once more I state that your knowledge is far greater than mine.

However, this does not stop me from questioning what seems to make good sense on paper, makes good sense when transferred to a "real" situation.

I think it is best I keep out of this so this thankfully is my last post here. I am now going to play some Pinto, blissfully unaware of the laws of gravity and axes or planes of movement.

Thal

[nyiregyhazi]

"Nyiregyhazi (can we call you Andrew? - it's quicker to type!): I've had a read of your blog and you have some good points to make. I'm not sure you couldn't make them more succinctly in places, mind you, and even as a physicist (although I've earned my crust as a pianist for over a decade I'm actually qualified in physics) I had trouble following it in places."

Yeah, I'm planning on doing a concise summary of the chain idea at some point- as well as using more diagrams and videos to illustrate things. As I've been developing the ideas, I've often realised that certain things can be explained in quicker ways, without compromising the content or depth of scientific explanation.
 

"As far as I can see, you have overlooked the role of inertia of the hand/arm/body. The fingers weigh very little and of course the keys of a piano don't weigh very much more. When the keys are depressed and released there is a low-pass filter effect applied by the inertial mass of the heavier bits of the player, which means that the muscles in the shoulder, for instance, don't generally have to react as fast as those in the fingers. This makes the analysis rather complicated."

Not at all- this is very much part of it! When the weight of the arm causes a force to tug backward at the wrist, it makes it possible for a finger to pull very hard indeed. The lack of inertia in the hand is no longer an issue- as it is kept very stable by this pull. I'm currently working on a post that goes back to the pencil experiment for a couple more elements- that I believe will provide a very clear practical illustrations of the problem with active arm pressure. When the arm is held stiff, the finger is limited in how it can pull, but when it hangs properly (from a stabilising finger), it makes it possible for the finger to create huge forces while the arm merely hangs back. I agree that it's very much more complicated when the whole arm's inertia is involved in more direct pressure- but I'd actually dispute that this is as necessary as believed. When I get to the fingers, I want to show how the vast majority of actions are extremely wasteful of energy- and how powerful a finger is when levering in a way that ensures that nothing is lost into slack.


"In addition, there are all sorts of reasons for pushing and pulling in apparently bizarre directions. For instance, many pianists (me included) tend to 'pull the key towards them' (i.e. stroke the key from fallboard towards the player while pressing down) when playing quietly. The simple explanation of this is that it creates a diagonal trajectory for the finger of which the downward vector is a relatively small part, making it easier to control the downward velocity of the key."

Absolutely agreed. I'm using something similar to this as the basis for most finger actions- although largely without moving the finger along the key. Recently a major breakthrough came from realising the problem with old-fashioned explanation in (supposed) physics. It only recently hit me, but the idea of the knuckle as a static fulcrum is over simplified nonsense. Why is the contact between finger and key not viewed as the fulcrum? Feeling the finger moving around this point makes for a very efficient action and minimises the impact at the keybed (as additional momentum continues to act upon the finger through to the rest of the arm, in a way that redirect the movement forward and up rather than to compress downward into the bed). This has been a collossal breakthrough. You can illustrate it very easily with a pencil. Pulling the key with a levering action makes for far more sound than pressing with the arm (unless the pencil begins and descends absolutely vertically- and hits the keybed absolutely dead-on, with the arm's momentum crashing behind it). When the right quality of levering action is used, I think it's pretty easy to make a big sound from the finger. I don't think enough pianists use this style of action though- and hence perceive weakness due to a less efficient action. 

[stevebob]

Does anybody really think that an understanding of kinesiology and/or physics is going to enable him or her to "play to the level of the greatest artists of all time," or that such knowledge was the foundation of their musicality?  I think it's far more likely that it derives from the kind of talent that makes certain people "naturals" at such tasks, whether piano playing or javelin throwing.

There's a difference between the theoretical knowledge and the practical application thereof.  However interesting the science may be to some people, "naturals" don't need it.  And if you have no natural talent, I'm skeptical that all the knowledge in the world about the physiology of the playing/performing mechanism can confer anything comparable to that natural talent.

I guess this post will be ignored just like my last one.  But hey, I did quit the forum, after all.  I'm not really here, so carry on! 

[nyiregyhazi]

(oops- quoted instead of modifying again)

[nyiregyhazi]

Absolutely- what it comes down it to is how much you want to improve as an individual. It's not about comparing yourself exactly, but rather realising how much more is possible for you. Do you want to keep striving for improvement, or do you want to just play within the limits of what you've ended up able to do already and say "I'm not talented enough to play better"? For some people, the latter might be case. As a teacher, these people are extremely unsatisfying to work with. If you try to get deeper into the music, generally it just turns out they can't do it- not necessarily because they don't understand the idea but because they don't have the control. However, if they enjoy working that way it's up to them. I was basically like that myself for a long time- although I finally had to ask myself whether I wanted to carry on playing with a technique that left me sounding nothing like I wanted to sound, or try to figure out a way of improving. I'm no Horowitz when it comes to the Liszt Sonata- but I can actually play it now and feel in control, at least- well mostly.

[keyboardclass]

For instance, many pianists (me included) tend to 'pull the key towards them' (i.e. stroke the key from fallboard towards the player while pressing down) when playing quietly. The simple explanation of this is that it creates a diagonal trajectory for the finger of which the downward vector is a relatively small part, making it easier to control the downward velocity of the key.

Incidentally, I do occasionally play with almost complete finger isolation, resting the palm of my hand on the front of the keyboard and playing purely with fingers. Obviously this is tricky in anything fast and basically impossible in anything with large leaps, but when playing, for instance, the bass part of a baroque sonata accompaniment it works perfectly well. I'm typing exactly that way right now.

Hey, I like the cut of your jib, man! I do all of the above.  Thank god there's a real physicist in the house.

[keyboardclass]

Does anybody really think that an understanding of kinesiology and/or physics is going to enable him or her to "play to the level of the greatest artists of all time," or that such knowledge was the foundation of their musicality? 

Knowledge (correct that is) helps teachers remove some barriers to progress.  Obviously it's a small ingredient, but essential.

[ramseytheii]

In addition, there are all sorts of reasons for pushing and pulling in apparently bizarre directions. For instance, many pianists (me included) tend to 'pull the key towards them' (i.e. stroke the key from fallboard towards the player while pressing down) when playing quietly. The simple explanation of this is that it creates a diagonal trajectory for the finger of which the downward vector is a relatively small part, making it easier to control the downward velocity of the key.

Brilliant!  I don't know anything about physics, and your description of stroking the keys created a clear picture in my mind.  Just wonderful!  I'm gushing.

Walter Ramsey

[nyiregyhazi]

Hey, I like the cut of your jib, man! I do all of the above.  Thank god there's a real physicist in the house.

As I already said- "If there's a single instance of inaccurate physics in my blog, please cite it." If you believe you are informed enough to question the accuracy of my knowledge and research, have the balls to illustrate it.

[keyboardclass]

How many times have we been here?  I end up asking you to cite your sources at which point you come up we the prophetic (or is that pathetic?) "I am the source!".

[nyiregyhazi]

How many times have we been here?  I end up asking you to cite your sources at which point you come up we the prophetic (or is that pathetic?) "I am the source!".

I am not interested in banal banter. Either put your money where you mouth is by illustrating factual errors or stop making lame quips. You might as well demand a "source" for applications of mental arithmetic. If you think I'm in error- you need to start by learning enough about the subject to demonstrate it. The fact that you think applications of simple Newtonian mechanics require a "source" simply illustrates the extent of your ignorance on this subject.

[keyboardclass]

Don't have to, there's 13 pages of it here: https://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/1602391/3.html&b=1 and that's just a snippet!

[nyiregyhazi]

And the factual errors are what exactly? How about simply stating one- rather than providing a 13 page "source"?

[john90]

Good to see such vociferous and constructive posts, backed up by youtube & blogs. Keep going, please. Opened my eyes a bit. Interesting to look at Valentina Lisitsa playing Chopin Op 10 No. 3 in the light of this. Some good shots of the hands, around 45 seconds and 4:00.

Now how do I get those pencil marks off my ivories?  

[richard black]

Gosh, Lisitsa must have a hefty monthly bill for lipstick....

Watching that video, to my mind, brings home nothing so much as the thought that practically any human activity is at its most efficient when it's most fluid. I had the same thought today watching video footage of whoever it was winning the London Marathon.

In terms of teaching, I dare say Lisitsa wasn't told in detail by any teacher how to use every muscle in her fingers/hands/arms/body, but it's a fair bet that at some point she was given a few pointers on what to do and what not. It's always easy to say, 'Oh, the greats are all naturals anyway' but how do we know how many potential greats were ruined by actively bad teaching? I've seen it happen among singers. But everything has to be in context and an overtly scientific approach isn't always the way to communicate most efficiently with pupils.

[Bob]

Gosh, Lisitsa must have a hefty monthly bill for lipstick....

That and forgot to wear a dress?

It almost feels wrong to watch those videos.   Almost...  *Bob thinks he needs to more study of the Chopin etudes.*

[thalbergmad]

Don't have to, there's 13 pages of it here: https://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/1602391/3.html&b=1 and that's just a snippet!

Oh dear, there is a lot of it.

I could learn the entire works of Steibelt in the time it would take to read all of that (I think).

Thal

[thalbergmad]

Oh, the greats are all naturals anyway' but how do we know how many potential greats were ruined by actively bad teaching?

Like the coach at the Kent County Cricket Club who made me change my action.

Not that I would have been great.

Thal

[carbe]

Hi again everybody!
It feels like I'm already a little bit more relaxed in my wrists. When I've practised whole the day (like today) I use to feel tiredness and pain in my wrists, but it has shrunk dramatically.

The problem is...
When my wrists are not tensed, I get no power in my playing.
The tones sounds often too little and I must press harder to make them sound more, and then I get tired.

How do I get a technique that includes no tense and also power?

[keyboardclass]

You relax the instant you've used your power i.e. as soon as the key's gone down.

[nyiregyhazi]

to jam in and release is something that you can get by on in slow repetoire. However, it doesn't work in Chopin studies- which is why a certain 'expert' has no experience of playing any to a serious standard. If you're serious about playing to a high standard, there should never be any moment of tension or jamming in severe enough to urgently need relaxation. such a requirement just shows poor control of the effort in the first place. Tension followed by release is an emergency fix for amateurish pianism- that has very little place in serious playing. In rapid pieces you just get the tension- minus the release. the only worthwhile method is that which works equally well when there is no time to seize up or release. Stick with wrist stifness (no matter how quick its released) and you will keep wasting effort and never play fast with ease- just like kbk.

[keyboardclass]

Pissing contest?  Grow up.   As usual you rely on groundless denigration of my technique - you especially hear what you want to hear.  I can reference what I say to that greatest minds in piano playing - and they don't anywhere or anytime recommend constant tension.

And before you start making this thread about me as you've done countless times before you want to consider the OP.  Trashing other people's threads is counterproductive and unpleasant.

[nyiregyhazi]

Pissing contest?  Grow up.   As usual you rely on groundless denigration of my technique - you especially hear what you want to hear.  I can reference what I say to that greatest minds in piano playing - and they don't anywhere or anytime recommend constant tension.

And before you start making this thread about me as you've done countless times before you want to consider the OP.  Trashing other people's threads is counterproductive and unpleasant.

Giving advice that it's okay to tense the wrist is deeply counterproductive and irresponsible. It's not okay at all and that's why your tutorial on op. No. 1 is all in slow motion- because your method doesn't work for anything advanced. There's nowhere to "relax" in such music-hence you cannot play it. You have to be capable of STAYING relaxed in the first place to even begin.

Stop promoting this amateurish nonsense and go and learn something that does work. I do not "want to hear" someone who consistently fails to sound his l.h. 2nd finger in a grade 2 menuet and who uploads such utter incompetence to youtube- especially if they claim tension is okay if you relax after. That does not work. It simply excuses poor technique. Good technique eliminates the strain at source- not after it's already struck.

That you say people hear what they want shows nothing but the extent of your self-delusion. You have no experience at anything that works to a high level.

[carbe]

Giving advice that it's okay to tense the wrist is deeply counterproductive and irresponsible. It's not okay at all and that's why your tutorial on op. No. 1 is all in slow motion- because your method doesn't work for anything advanced. There's nowhere to "relax" in such music-hence you cannot play it. You have to be capable of stay relaxed in the first place to even begin.

Stop promoting this amateurish nonsense and go and learn something that does work. I do not "want to hear" a pianist who consistently fails to sound his l.h. 2nd finger in a grade 2 menuet and who uploads such utter incompetence to youtube- especially if they claim tension is okay if you relax after. That does not work. It simply excuses poor technique. Good technique eliminates the strain at source- not after it's already struck.

So what is your suggestion?
How shall I relax and get power at the same time?

[lostinidlewonder]

There really is NO secret technique to make you feel less tired when you play. I can relate to this strongly since I have played piano since I was 3 years old. Playing Beethoven Sonata's before I was 10 I noticed a lot of tiredness issues because of undeveloped muscles associated with piano playing. One particular example would be the Pathetique first movement when the LH plays the octave tremolos. There was no special relaxation that can remedy this, if you relax too much then you have no power to create the sound, you need to be able to exert the right amount of energy without wearing yourself down. This can vary from piano to piano, some pianos have very heavy action and you will naturally be more tired playing on these instruments no matter how good you are at playing the piano.

I do not have these tiredness issues that make me stop playing now as an adult playing for over 25 years, not unless I practice for many hours on end or play something that is very physically demanding. The remedy for becoming more resistant to the strain is to simply keep playing, do not play when you feel that burning lactic acid building up in yourself. You should not act against your body telling you to give it a break. If it is a technical issue in your playing then you may never solve your problems, but certainly you will not solve your technical problems by considering your technique away from the piano and without context to what you are playing. Generalisations although interesting, just do not cut it.

[carbe]

There really is NO secret technique to make you feel less tired when you play. I can relate to this strongly since I have played piano since I was 3 years old. Playing Beethoven Sonata's before I was 10 I noticed a lot of tiredness issues because of undeveloped muscles associated with piano playing. One particular example would be the Pathetique first movement when the LH plays the octave tremolos. There was no special relaxation that can remedy this, if you relax too much then you have no power to create the sound, you need to be able to exert the right amount of energy without wearing yourself down. This can vary from piano to piano, some pianos have very heavy action and you will naturally be more tired playing on these instruments no matter how good you are at playing the piano.

I do not have these tiredness issues that make me stop playing now as an adult playing for over 25 years, not unless I practice for many hours on end or play something that is very physically demanding. The remedy for becoming more resistant to the strain is to simply keep playing, do not play when you feel that burning lactic acid building up in yourself. You should not act against your body telling you to give it a break. If it is a technical issue in your playing then you may never solve your problems, but certainly you will not solve your technical problems by considering your technique away from the piano and without context to what you are playing. Generalisations although interesting, just do not cut it.

Thanks for this post. It helped me understand more.
I've also heard a piano teacher talk about undeveloped muscles. But I think it will be better in the future? You know, I started playing for about two years ago, so I think some of my muscles are not strong yet. I get most tired of playing pieces such as Fantasie Impromptu and the boogie "Kitten on the keys".

[nyiregyhazi]

there are issues that develop over time. However the wrist issue is not one. I lost years with no progress on the ease in my wrists. You have to stop the need for it stiffen. You say you push with the arm- even in fast finger work? there's no quick fix, but you have to stop this immediately- if you want to progress. Think what happens when you push the arm. Either it forces a relaxed wrist up or it drags it down. It makes a stable wrist impossible without large efforts. You have to stop pushing and start improving use of your hand. Otherwise time will not change a thing. Pushing actions of the arm do not work for anything fast. It's a complete dead end unless you totally change that.