Worried parent.......

[mishele]

Hi all!! I have a 4 yr old soon to be 5 at the end of the month that has been in piano lessons since about this time last year. He has gone through ups and downs w/ practicing. But I would say for the last few month he had just hit a wall and is just not interested anymore. He is playing French Children's Song now and I just believe that it might just of gotten too hard for him.  They have given him flash cards to learn to read music and I don't think he is interested in it. Did my mother-In-Law start him and push him too hard to early? Is French Children's Song hard for a 4 year old? I know a lot of this is on a child to child basis but I was hoping someone could tell me what is in the range of normal for a 4 year old!! Thanks everyone!!

[mishele]

Hmmmmmm......can anyone tell me if it is advanced to be play French Children's Song w/ 2 hands at age 4?
Or if reading music is advanced at age 4?
I didn't mean to sound like I was flying off in my first post.  I'm just trying to educate myself on what people expectation should be for this age. I never played the piano so I have no reference point. Thanks again!

[miriamko]

I know that many people will disagree with me but I think 4 years of age is far too young to learn notes. It is possible but quite pointless. There is so much a young child can learn about piano playing that does not involve note reading. Of course your child is uninterested. My advice to parents of very young students is to send them to a pre-instrumental course where they will learn about pitch, rhythm, expression etc.  After a year or two of this the child is perfectly prepared for learning an instrument and music reading. My advice would be to slow down his progress and give him pieces that he can learn relatively easily so that he will be motivated and feel he is making progress. It is all too overwhelming for him and he has given up. Don't worry, he'll be fine!!

[mishele]

Thanks for commenting!! I run a daycare so I am around children A LOT. I was impressed w/ what he was able to do, but not knowing anything about the piano, I couldn't tell if it was me just being a mom.

I love that my son is interested in music but I am not into how he is being pushed. They did tell me that he is talented, which I guess made them push him harder. I'll prolly have to have a meeting and try to figure out how to help him have FUN w/ it again.

lol It sounds like this is an on going debate on here about teaching kids to read music early on. I wouldn't mind hearing the other side of the argument if someone wants to step up and present it. =)
Thanks everyone!!

[quantum]

At age 4-5 asking them to decipher the hieroglyphics that western music notation presents may be a bit too much for him.  Is he at the point yet where he can read simple children's books?  I mean read as in the text, not tell the story from the pictures. 


I agree with miriamko.  At this age perhaps what is best is to cultivate his curiosity with sound.  Get him interested in the various timbres of instruments, feeling rhythm by banging on pots or drums, moving his body to music.  The technicalities of playing piano can come much later when he is more comfortable with motor movements and reading ability. 

Look into music classes for very young children. 

[kelly_kelly]

At age 4-5 asking them to decipher the hieroglyphics that western music notation presents may be a bit too much for him.  Is he at the point yet where he can read simple children's books?  I mean read as in the text, not tell the story from the pictures. 


I agree with miriamko.  At this age perhaps what is best is to cultivate his curiosity with sound.  Get him interested in the various timbres of instruments, feeling rhythm by banging on pots or drums, moving his body to music.  The technicalities of playing piano can come much later when he is more comfortable with motor movements and reading ability. 

Look into music classes for very young children. 

This may be off topic, but I'm curious as to your opinions: is reading music intrinsically harder than reading text? I learned to read text at around 3.5 years, but didn't start music until a few years later, so I don't really know how to compare.

[mishele]

My son is reading beginner reader books. If you'll call it phase 1 books. Yes, he needs help here and there but for the most part he has no problem sounding out words. You go to reading music and he has issues. Whether they be just the lack of interest or just not understanding the different lines, he has issues.

[quantum]

This may be off topic, but I'm curious as to your opinions: is reading music intrinsically harder than reading text? I learned to read text at around 3.5 years, but didn't start music until a few years later, so I don't really know how to compare.

IMO, there are a lot more items to process in reading music than reading text.  

In text we could generally go from alphabet, to word, to sentence.  The vertical positioning of characters in Western typeset usually does not have any affect on the meaning of the word.  While the temporal rate of reception or delivery may serve to accent certain aspects of the text, for the most part it does not modify meaning.  

In music, while there are less digits in the alphabet, there are many modifiers we must pass through that letter in order to get a note.  

There is the dimension of pitch, a "C" is not just any C.  We must locate its vertical orientation on the staff and place it on a space or line.  Next we need to observe the clef to which we can decipher the letter name of the note.  Following that we need to observe the current key signature, and any measure level rules that apply.  Following that we need to apply any local accidentals.  

We also have the temporal dimension.  A note is not only its pitch, but also the duration of that pitch.  Collections of pitch durations can form rhythmic sentences as well - in simultaneous occurrence as that of pitch movement.  Not only is the presence of pitch recognized in rhythm, but the absence of it as well. ie. rests.  

Now in speech, if two people talk at the same time saying completely different things the conversation can become hard to follow - let alone 3 or 4 independent yet simultaneous iterations.  In music the the horizontal laying of different ideas can serve to heighten the musical experience.  Think of polyphonic writing such as a fugue or the isorhythmic music of the 14th century.

Again in music there is the speech of the ideas presented in the score through our musical instrument.  For the exception of vocalists, we must navigate instruments through physical interaction with them.  The skill set needed to do this is extremely varied depending on which instrument we choose.  Often the acquirement of this skill set happens at the same time as as skill in reading a score.  For keyboard players, there is a more of a sensible relationship to the dimensional relationships of pitch.  Eg: Higher pitch = moving up in a score = moving right on the keyboard.  Black keys = notes labeled with either sharps or flats.  However for say a clarinet player, the F# above F is not necessarily the next key up.  Brass players only have a handful of valves to achieve all the pitches in their range.  String players can be asked to re-tune a string.  For these instrumentalists, musical notation becomes an even more complex minefield to navigate.  

Then there is the internal cognition of a music score.  In my experience reading and comprehending silently and hearing the text in my head came much quicker than the musical equivalent.  The ability to take an unknown score, and without ever touching an instrument hear every pitch and rhythm takes training and time.  This skill is often the focus of a 1st year university course.  

Would be interesting to seek any formal scientific studies done with this intriguing inquiry.  

[fleetfingers]

So, is he learning French Children's Song now and finding it difficult, or do you mean he can already play it?

It's a hard piece for beginners to play, especially for a 4-year-old, but it's not impossible. Is he learning with Suzuki books? Is he learning French Children's Song by rote? Sometimes it's better to teach the right hand to all of the pieces (or at least a few of them) in the book first, then go back and teach the left hand accompaniments. If you are indeed talking about the Suzuki book, those are not easy left hand parts and they should be tackled by little ones slowly, measure by measure. Also, he will have to listen to the CD on a daily basis, so he can hear how the two parts sound together. Are you playing the CD for him?

I would wait to teach him to read music. But that doesn't mean he can't play the piano, as long as he enjoys it. If he is losing interest, it could mean that it's too hard for him. On the other hand, sometimes all a child needs is a good half-hour lesson where the teacher really works him until he gets it. Then, he'll be able to play it, he'll feel good about himself, and he'll want to play it again and again. It's hard to say over the forum what would cure his boredom. I wish you good luck and hope that your son enjoys the piano again soon!

EDIT: When I mentioned the teacher "working" the student, let me say that it doesn't have to be in a way that is "pushing" the child. There are ways of getting a young one to repeat something over and over in a fun way so that he actually thinks he's playing a game.

[john90]

At 5 I remember being frustrated by the slow speed of progress. I desperately wanted to play, but was loosing interest in lessons. Not loosing interest in Piano, just in lessons. Making things easier would not have helped me, but bored me even more. I wanted to play chords, and use the pedals, play more by ear, and play tunes I genuinely liked. I don't think it is specifically age related either. What I am doing with my son (quite a bit older), is practising the lesson stuff the teacher gives, then working on a special project, doing what he wants, looking at young kids playing on youtube, taking the right hand of a complicated piece far to hard, and letting him do that as a 'reward' for finishing the normal lesson stuff.

[ongaku_oniko]

so it's not just me.

I had absolutely no interest in piano until I was given the "hard" stuff (only grade 4). Boring little pieces just don't cut it, IMO. You can't bring interest with simple boring things.

People feel more of an achievemet when they accomplish something hard. If they do 1 + 1 all day long, they won't learn and will get bored easily.

[mishele]

Yes, he is learning from the Suzuki books. He has pretty much learned French Children's song w/ both hands. He still makes mistakes here and there but generally does it well. The song that he is learning is Chant Arabe w/ both hands. He is having a harder time w/ this song. His left hand is giving him problems.

Do you think he should be given maybe an easy song in between the hard ones? Maybe that would help his confidence. He has a concert in about 4 weeks where he is supposed to play these two songs. =)

[fleetfingers]

Did he skip over London Bridge? Mary? Rhody? Long, Long Ago? Those ones are important to do in between because they reinforce the skills he learned with French Children's, while adding a few different notes, chords and rhythms, as well. For all of those I just mentioned, the left hand accompaniment is pretty much the same idea, so learning the right hand to all of those first, then adding the left helps keep them interested. In the meantime, he'll still play French Children's, which will become easier for him to play and then he will be a pro at the hands together thing. At that point, adding the left hand to the other tunes is much easier.

The pieces in the Suzuki books are arranged in such a way that the student is given a hard piece, followed by one or more easier ones. That way, they are stretched a little, then they get a break and it does help with confidence and reinforcement. Your son is still so young, I don't see a reason to rush him. Suzuki goes fast enough as it is.

I don't know what other teachers do, but after some close calls, I now follow a general rule in my own mind that a student has to have his piece completely learned at least a few weeks before the recital. It is too stressful for teacher and student to rush to finish something. If it were me, I'd have him polish French Children's to sound near-perfect for the concert. If he really needs to play more than one, maybe he can play an old one that he already knows well. I don't doubt that he can learn Chant Arabe eventually, but I don't think it's a good idea to "kind of" learn it real quick for the sake of playing it at the concert.

That's just my opinion. Whatever you decide to do, good luck!

[m1469]

One of the most important aspects, in my opinion, in starting anybody under 5 yrs. old is in giving them the opportunity to discover, explore, and possibly cultivate a bond with music and the instrument itself, that will hopefully last for a lifetime.  When I think back over my own life, that bond that I've had with the instrument itself since I was very small, has been extremely high on the list of reasons that I would ever even consider keeping with it.  There is something about the sound of the instrument that absolutely calls to me and fascinates me.

I think that sometimes people get too caught up in trying to help individuals love music itself.  A love and appreciation for music is important, too, but there has to also be a very special bond with the instrument.

At 3-5 years old, individuals are often just learning about making new friends, what it means to have friends and what those relationships are all about, especially if they are attending preschool or kindergarten.  It's also a time of learning about how to take care of pets or help out with younger siblings, even.  Along those lines, I have always thought of the piano as being alive and especially when I was a child, it was almost like a living being to me.

Do you want to know though, what the saddest part is about being a piano?  It can be an extremely sad life, you know.  I may sound happy sometimes, but deep down I'm really sad.  Would you like to know why?  Because nobody ever plays with me.  That makes me feel so lonely.  Can you imagine what it would be like to go to school and have no friends?  To walk around as though nobody even knows anything about you?  They don't know the sound of your voice and they don't even care what it sounds like?  That's how I feel when nobody plays with me.  I feel like nobody knows anything about me at all.  But, I really respond when somebody gets to know me ... if you touch my keys a certain way, like if you want to tell me a joke, you can hear it in my voice!

I overheard a nice lady who teaches children telling somebody just this evening about me.  And do you know what happened?  The little girl suddenly had feelings for me and she learned how to make the most beautiful sound come out of me that I've ever even heard!  She learned how to pet me so softly and so my voice sounded softly because of it.  

I bet most people don't even know this secret that if nobody plays with me, I cry at night when nobody can hear me .

[john90]

I agree with m1469 about forming a special relationship with the instrument, and not just music. I don't like the bit about mentioning that the piano is "sad", and the "no friends" part, though.

[m1469]

I agree with m1469 about forming a special relationship with the instrument, and not just music. I don't like the bit about mentioning that the piano is "sad", and the "no friends" part, though.

It doesn't have to be sad!  It can be beautiful and happy and so many other things.  But, in my world (which, I understand is not everybody's world), I looked at it even when I was in University and thought about all it is.  How much music it is so ready to sound, how many characteristics it can have especially if somebody inclines their ear and really listens for them (which is what any kind of story in a lesson is preparing a student to do).  And, how many "stories" a piano could tell if it's had several people througout the years who have played it and have loved it.  But, these are all things that nobody would ever know about if it is never played with.  I imagined what it would be like to live that kind of life, to have so much inside that couldn't come out unless somebody literally sat down with me and explored the possibilities.  If I were a piano for reals, I wouldn't be able to even walk up to people and try to join the conversation or the party!  I would have no choice about how well my soul is known other than if somebody actually decided to come to me and find out about it all.  That painted a much different kind of picture for me and one which went beyond just making it sound like birds or elephants, etc..  

Ultimately, it will reflect whatever the performer brings to it, and that is a very important and probably difficult thing to "teach".  To see a 4 year old hug it and pet the keys like it's a Teddy Bear or a kitty cat is perhaps important, and to hear the sound that came from her compassionate and conscientious playing of it is priceless.  For some people it's just a big adventure land with treasures to find and tales to tell, etc..  But, there is a very real element of sadness, in my opinion, to the fact that any instrument of any kind is not fully appreciated without the "compassion" for it to have a voice in the world.  And, ultimately, to play an instrument as though it has a soul is actually us exploring and expressing our own.

[lostinidlewonder]

One other side I tell my students parents is that practice is not always fun and it is a wrong way to look at learning piano. It is not always fun, it is hard work, that is the reality. If the kids are losing interest and not practicing that is generally an issue that you as a teacher have little control over.

The parents need to encourage their child to work when they don't want to, this is an important life skill they should learn early rather than later. I have tutored many failing students in several subjects including piano and found they have the brain and skill to be top students, but they are just lazy and don't work on their own and they suffer in the long run because of it. It can be very easy for parents to make their children do the work, it can be extremely difficult, it depends on the family. Generally (certainly not all!) my Asian students listen to their parents and do what they are told, it is why they generally also shine as students because the discipline to work is inbuilt in their general life habit.

I teach a 60+ man who admits he has no discipline when it comes to learning anything, he is always tired, always has other things to do etc etc. I found the most change in his music occurred when we spent time actually organizing his daily life on paper, but that only lasted a couple of weeks! In the end some people just don't have the discipline to ever do well, that is the only thing holding them back. Good work habits need to be learned early on, the younger the better, but still they need to have a childhood, fun and games should never be completely replaced.

It is hard to motivate people, children love rewards; lollies, stickers, toys etc, when you become older it is harder to find motivation. Getting lollies for doing well in your piano work is just not going to cut it. In the end if you do not have a love for piano and making music you never really can gain the discipline to work at it and make it part of your life. Children should however in my opinion stick with piano even if they find the drudgery of practice too much to deal with. I have several examples of young students who have hated the practice but over the years have learned to deal with it and work more effectively so not frustrate themselves as much. Of course most students take the path of simply leaving, it depends on what the family is able to deal with not necessarily the student themselves.

[mcdiddy1]

Probably the best thing you can do to make lessons more interesting is to find a way to bring more imagination in to the lesson. Use the title of the pieces to create an interesting story and put the emphasis on musical qualities. For example if you are learning a piece about with the word French in it you could say. : What do you think French Children are like? ..Well they are usually very happy and like to play so they jump up and down like this( demonstrate on the piano) and they sound happy like this ( demonstrate on the piano). When you demonstrate have him imitate you and just focus on one thing at a time ( getting the notes rights, playing a slur, staccato etc). Asking children to understand notation before the 1st grade is pushing it, so take the book away and use it for yourself. Teach the student the song by rote, one part at time, one hand at a time. When they have already learned how to play it then you could explain how what they played relates to the music. You want to find a way to break down the music to simplify it for they by concentrating on different elements of the music.

[john90]

Teach the student the song by rote, one part at time, one hand at a time. When they have already learned how to play it then you could explain how what they played relates to the music. You want to find a way to break down the music to simplify it for they by concentrating on different elements of the music.

That is what I would have enjoyed more. A concentration on technique, fingering, timing, less on the music. The music being there only when you forget the melody. Only when I stopped working for my grades did I really enjoy practising. Struggling with a new piece I chose, for an hour solid, seemingly getting no where, is so rewarding now. I now know it is the first part of being able to play the piece.

When I would play the piece in my lesson, do quite well, but then get totally lost, I would be told "you're not reading the music". I wonder if this focus on reading music dates back to  1920s attitudes, when many of the "uneducated" could play fantastically but not read music?

What I found personally, is that my sight reading improves after learning a new piece automatically, even if I try and memorisie rather than read it, as I still need to read it a few times.

[fleetfingers]

One other side I tell my students parents is that practice is not always fun and it is a wrong way to look at learning piano. It is not always fun, it is hard work, that is the reality. If the kids are losing interest and not practicing that is generally an issue that you as a teacher have little control over.

You are right about work not being fun, but work is rewarding. If that principle has not been instilled at home, then it can be introduced and impressed upon a student by a good teacher. In my last post, I mentioned that sometimes all a child needs is a good half-hour lesson where the teacher works him until he gets it. I treat lessons as practice sessions and teach my students how to approach the learning of a piece and how to tackle difficult passages specific to that piece. Whether they learn a single measure, one page, or the whole thing, my goal in a lesson is to have them work hard and accomplish something by the end of the half hour. They feel good about themselves when they can play it. Then, I assign the next line, for example, and instruct them to approach it in the same way. Because they've experienced how it feels to struggle through something with the reward of being able to play it, they are willing to work hard during their individual practice to have that same satisfaction. It doesn't have to be fun, but it doesn't need to be drudgery either.

[emill]

Interesting observations regarding teaching strategies and
I think it boils down to a large degree on how to maintain
interest and motivation with each field having unique techniques
to approach variants like age, prior educational attainment,
cultural and ethnic factors etc. .

I guess for beginners who are very young kids, making lessons
more fun than work will be a good starting point and sustaining
this fun is the challenge. There are a lot of possibilities when a
good performing young student suddenly loses interest and one
can easily see that a lot of these have something to do with the
loss of fun. Of course as the student matures the concepts of
work... and more responsibility are inculcated.

I have been teaching for almost 30 years, which entails handling
large groups of students and much smaller groups of 8-12
students and despite their being highly motivated individuals
(they are in the 22-26 age group), it has become quite clear
that those teachers who are able to design their teaching
strategies in the "more fun" aspects can still extract better
overall results than those teachers who continue to indulge in
the "plain work" aspects.  I guess that also goes for piano players.
It does not take to be a super teacher to realize that younger
students tend to perform better when fun is involved in their tasks.